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Quote (942767 @ April 16 2008,20:15) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,22:22) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,22:31) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,15:15) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,21:56) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,14:36) 94, So you sanction the killing of over 2 million people (including infants and children and not including the flood) in the OT?
Hi KJ:Show me the scriptures in context, and I will discuss it with you.
Hi KJ:These scriptures are too numerous for me to look at each one in context in one sitting (but I will take a look at each one), but rather than the word “killed”, when it comes to God's actions, against the wicked, I believe that the word would be “that he rendered judgment upon the wicked”.
And I don't have to justify what God has done. He is God and can do whatever He chooses to do, and sometimes, we may not understand, and so, we have to ask God for understanding.
Hehe, now we put conditions on the same end result? Dead is dead.Of course you don't have to justify because you cannot. You just whistle a tune a pretend it isn't in there.
Hi Kj:I know that dead is dead, but there is a difference between a human being killing another human being and when God renders judgment on someone.
Explain the book of Joshua then. Just Joshua and his boys, killing men, women, and children. They say once you kill, it becomes easier. Human life no longer holds value after awhile. I imagine Joshua — if he existed — was a ruthless, cold-hearted killer.
Quote There some violations in the law of this society, for example, that can carry the death penalty. In this society sure, but nothing like calling a man baldy, and then having 2 bears kill 42 boys. That's worthy punishment. Not.
Quote The penalty for breaking God's Law is also death. The scripture states: “the wages of sin is death”, and all of us are guilty of breaking God's law, and it only through what God has done for us through Jesus that we can be forgiven. So Yahweh waited 1000s of years to give people Jesus so in the meantime people before him were being put to death for the most petty of things? Sounds reasonable of an all-loving Yahweh.
Quote In the OT, when someone of the Nation of Israel violated God's Law defiantly the penalty was also death.
The law said nothing of “defiantly”. It just gave the “crime” and the punishment.Quote I don't have to justify God's actions. He is the judge and I know he judges righteously. This world and all that is in it belongs to Him and He can do with it as he chooses. He does not need permission from you or anyone else.
Standard 3-monkeys answer (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil).You take this position because (a) you fear Yahweh and (b) any chink in the bible will be a chink in your faith.
Quote I would be willing as I said to look at each one of those scriptures mentioned as I said I would if it would make a difference in what you believed about Him, but it probably won't make any difference since your mind seems to be already made up. See my latest tagline. It pretty much sums up the attitude of the writers of the OT. They felt that Yahweh loved to destroy as much as he loved to bless. What a bipolar attitude. Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde.
Quote The following is what the Apostle Paul states and I agree with his statement: Quote Rom.9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
I agree here. But the OT doesn't.Quote Quote Romans 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Quote Romans 2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
Have you ever wondered why Paul distanced himself from the Law? It wasn't just the mitzvot, it was likely the brutality of his ex-religion. Perhaps Paul was smarter than we give him credit for.Quote (Colter @ April 16 2008,20:19) Quote (kejonn @ April 17 2008,09:12) Colter, But this can extend to the NT as well. Paul told women to be quiet in church. That was something that might have gone over in the 1st century, but it doesn't hold up well in the 21st.
For a faith to be dynamic, it can't be full of rules, regulations, and commands that are applicable only to certain cultures and time periods. God is supposed to be the same no matter whattime in history, but to view certain things in the bible as being from God forces us to believe that He is stuck in the bronze and iron ages. Can we say that the world has left God behind?
There are some good parts of the bible, but to think that God stopped talking to people in 100 CE says that God has left. Where did He go?
Hi kejonn,In my UB Jesus elected 12 women evangelist
Quote These ten women selected and commissioned by Jesus were: Susanna, the daughter of the former chazan of the Nazareth synagogue; Joanna, the wife of Chuza, the steward of Herod Antipas; Elizabeth, the daughter of a wealthy Jew of Tiberias and Sepphoris; Martha, the elder sister of Andrew and Peter; Rachel, the sister-in-law of Jude, the Master's brother in the flesh; Nasanta, the daughter of Elman, the Syrian physician; Milcha, a cousin of the Apostle Thomas; Ruth, the eldest daughter of Matthew Levi; Celta, the daughter of a Roman centurion; and Agaman, a widow of Damascus. Subsequently, Jesus added two other women to this group–Mary Magdalene and Rebecca, the daughter of Joseph of Arimathea. Good for the UB. It tries to make up for the what was lacking in the bible to bring it up to more modern standards. Too bad it is not supported in the bible. Thus it is just added stories to cover the embarassment of a religion that is failing to stand the test of time.
Quote Colter: Jesus was quite leberal about such things as equality. But yes, Paul undid much that Jesus had liberated because Paul has his own ideas that were fastened onto Christianity.
get ready to jam forks in your eyes:
“It was only natural that the cult of renunciation and humiliation should have paid attention to sexual gratification. The continence cult originated as a ritual among soldiers prior to engaging in battle; in later days it became the practice of “saints.” This cult tolerated marriage only as an evil lesser than fornication. Many of the world's great religions have been adversely influenced by this ancient cult, but none more markedly than Christianity. The Apostle Paul was a devotee of this cult, and his personal views are reflected in the teachings which he fastened onto Christian theology: “It is good for a man not to touch a woman.” “I would that all men were even as I myself.” “I say, therefore, to the unmarried and widows, it is good for them to abide even as I.” Paul well knew that such teachings were not a part of Jesus' gospel, and his acknowledgment of this is illustrated by his statement, “I speak this by permission and not by commandment.” But this cult led Paul to look down upon women. And the pity of it all is that his personal opinions have long influenced the teachings of a great world religion. If the advice of the tentmaker-teacher were to be literally and universally obeyed, then would the human race come to a sudden and inglorious end. Furthermore, the involvement of a religion with the ancient continence cult leads directly to a war against marriage and the home, society's veritable foundation and the basic institution of human progress. And it is not to be wondered at that all such beliefs fostered the formation of celibate priesthoods in the many religions of various peoples. “
Colter
Hey you remembered
. But you know I cannot accept new stories about Jesus written almost 1900 years after the fact. Its hard enough accepting the ones written 40 years after, much less almost 2 millenia.From the enormous UB tract that was crowbarred into place above:
“If you find the requirements of apostleship too hard, you may return to the less rigorous pathway of discipleship.”
If you can't afford the Gold membership, downgrade to Silver.Stuart
Quote (kejonn @ April 17 2008,14:06) Quote (942767 @ April 16 2008,20:15) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,22:22) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,22:31) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,15:15) Quote (942767 @ April 14 2008,21:56) Quote (kejonn @ April 15 2008,14:36) 94, So you sanction the killing of over 2 million people (including infants and children and not including the flood) in the OT?
Hi KJ:Show me the scriptures in context, and I will discuss it with you.
Hi KJ:These scriptures are too numerous for me to look at each one in context in one sitting (but I will take a look at each one), but rather than the word “killed”, when it comes to God's actions, against the wicked, I believe that the word would be “that he rendered judgment upon the wicked”.
And I don't have to justify what God has done. He is God and can do whatever He chooses to do, and sometimes, we may not understand, and so, we have to ask God for understanding.
Hehe, now we put conditions on the same end result? Dead is dead.Of course you don't have to justify because you cannot. You just whistle a tune a pretend it isn't in there.
Hi Kj:I know that dead is dead, but there is a difference between a human being killing another human being and when God renders judgment on someone.
Explain the book of Joshua then. Just Joshua and his boys, killing men, women, and children. They say once you kill, it becomes easier. Human life no longer holds value after awhile. I imagine Joshua — if he existed — was a ruthless, cold-hearted killer.
Quote There some violations in the law of this society, for example, that can carry the death penalty. In this society sure, but nothing like calling a man baldy, and then having 2 bears kill 42 boys. That's worthy punishment. Not.
Quote The penalty for breaking God's Law is also death. The scripture states: “the wages of sin is death”, and all of us are guilty of breaking God's law, and it only through what God has done for us through Jesus that we can be forgiven. So Yahweh waited 1000s of years to give people Jesus so in the meantime people before him were being put to death for the most petty of things? Sounds reasonable of an all-loving Yahweh.
Quote In the OT, when someone of the Nation of Israel violated God's Law defiantly the penalty was also death.
The law said nothing of “defiantly”. It just gave the “crime” and the punishment.Quote I don't have to justify God's actions. He is the judge and I know he judges righteously. This world and all that is in it belongs to Him and He can do with it as he chooses. He does not need permission from you or anyone else.
Standard 3-monkeys answer (see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil).You take this position because (a) you fear Yahweh and (b) any chink in the bible will be a chink in your faith.
Quote I would be willing as I said to look at each one of those scriptures mentioned as I said I would if it would make a difference in what you believed about Him, but it probably won't make any difference since your mind seems to be already made up. See my latest tagline. It pretty much sums up the attitude of the writers of the OT. They felt that Yahweh loved to destroy as much as he loved to bless. What a bipolar attitude. Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde.
Quote The following is what the Apostle Paul states and I agree with his statement: Quote Rom.9:14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
I agree here. But the OT doesn't.Quote Quote Romans 3:5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
Quote Romans 2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not kn
owing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
Have you ever wondered why Paul distanced himself from the Law? It wasn't just the mitzvot, it was likely the brutality of his ex-religion. Perhaps Paul was smarter than we give him credit for.
This is the book of Joshua:Quote Exd 23:23 For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Exd 23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
Exd 23:25 And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.
Exd 23:26 There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil.
Exd 23:27 ¶ I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee.
Exd 23:28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee.
Exd 23:29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.
Exd 23:30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
Exd 23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.
Exd 23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exd 23:33 They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee
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