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Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,22:55) It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
How would archeology support the Exodus, if it did, do you think? And how would it prove the Jews were there, if it could?Quote Ah, when Christians don't have an answer, they use the “you don't believe it” ploy. So transparent. Incorrect again.
Does it not seem odd to you that you're arguing that your morality is superior to what you believe is an imaginary person who doesn't exist?
Why not just state plainly what you believe. You cannot have it both ways.
1. God doesn't exist.
2. God's morality is bad.Both these things cannot be true.
Quote It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt. –kejonn
Yes, and Egypt obviously would want to record all the things about itself that are humilitating, or would they? Historians of the past who worked for royalty tend to praise their employers, not show their weaknesses. Triumphs are played up, and defeats are played down or not even mentioned.
So if the Exodus did happen, and the Jewish population managed to free itself (by the hand of God) this is obviously not something the pharoah's personal historian would want to emphasize.
IS IT?
Someone's comment from another site:
“The Egyptians were excellent keepers of records… for approved historical information. Didn't they try to wipe out records for Pharoahs they didn't approve of, such as Ahkanaten?”IF the only people that could or would write about such an event were the PHAROAHS' scribes, what is the likelyhood that they are going to do this?
IF it actually happened as explained, and all the Egyptian gods were shown to be nothing, this was a great humiliation, for that people.
Not that this proves anything like that happened. It just demonstrates that there is no way to disprove that something like this happened by saying it isn't written about.Quote (david @ April 09 2008,16:22) Quote Ah, when Christians don't have an answer, they use the “you don't believe it” ploy. So transparent. Incorrect again.
Does it not seem odd to you that you're arguing that your morality is superior to what you believe is an imaginary person who doesn't exist?
Why not just state plainly what you believe. You cannot have it both ways.
1. God doesn't exist.
2. God's morality is bad.Both these things cannot be true.
Or better yet: Yahweh is a bad representation of God. That takes away your #1 and #2 options.Quote (david @ April 09 2008,16:31) Quote It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt. –kejonn
Yes, and Egypt obviously would want to record all the things about itself that are humilitating, or would they? Historians of the past who worked for royalty tend to praise their employers, not show their weaknesses. Triumphs are played up, and defeats are played down or not even mentioned.
So if the Exodus did happen, and the Jewish population managed to free itself (by the hand of God) this is obviously not something the pharoah's personal historian would want to emphasize.
IS IT?
Someone's comment from another site:
“The Egyptians were excellent keepers of records… for approved historical information. Didn't they try to wipe out records for Pharoahs they didn't approve of, such as Ahkanaten?”IF the only people that could or would write about such an event were the PHAROAHS' scribes, what is the likelyhood that they are going to do this?
IF it actually happened as explained, and all the Egyptian gods were shown to be nothing, this was a great humiliation, for that people.
Not that this proves anything like that happened. It just demonstrates that there is no way to disprove that something like this happened by saying it isn't written about.
From The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, pp. 70-71:- Now a young leader of Judah was prepared to confront the great pharoah, and ancient traditions from many sources were crafted in a single sweeping epic that bolstered Josiah's political aims.
New layers would be added to the Exodus story in subsequent centuries – during the exile in Babylonia and beyond. But we can now see how the astonishing composition came together under the pressure of a growing conflict with Egypt in the seventh century BC. The saga of Israel's Exodus from Egypt is neither historical truth nor literary fiction. It is a powerful expression of memory and hope born in a world in the midst of change. The confrontation between Moses and pharoah mirrored the momentous confrontation between the young king Josiah and the newly crowned Pharoah Necho. To pin this biblical image down to a single date us to betray the story's deepest meaning. Passover proves to be not a single event but a continuing experience of national resistance against the powers that be.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2008,10:26) Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,22:55) It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
How would archeology support the Exodus, if it did, do you think? And how would it prove the Jews were there, if it could?
If you can get your hands on it, check out the book I listed in my response to David.Quote Yahweh is a bad representation of God. –kejonn
So you believe “God” exists?
Tell us about him. What is his name? Does he have a name?
What do you know about him? If the Bible doesn't represent him accurately, why don't you tell us about him….
Or are you not willing to say that God exists? What do you know?
Quote (kejonn @ April 10 2008,10:35) Quote (david @ April 09 2008,16:31) Quote It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt. –kejonn
Yes, and Egypt obviously would want to record all the things about itself that are humilitating, or would they? Historians of the past who worked for royalty tend to praise their employers, not show their weaknesses. Triumphs are played up, and defeats are played down or not even mentioned.
So if the Exodus did happen, and the Jewish population managed to free itself (by the hand of God) this is obviously not something the pharoah's personal historian would want to emphasize.
IS IT?
Someone's comment from another site:
“The Egyptians were excellent keepers of records… for approved historical information. Didn't they try to wipe out records for Pharoahs they didn't approve of, such as Ahkanaten?”IF the only people that could or would write about such an event were the PHAROAHS' scribes, what is the likelyhood that they are going to do this?
IF it actually happened as explained, and all the Egyptian gods were shown to be nothing, this was a great humiliation, for that people.
Not that this proves anything like that happened. It just demonstrates that there is no way to disprove that something like this happened by saying it isn't written about.
From The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman, pp. 70-71:- Now a young leader of Judah was prepared to confront the great pharoah, and ancient traditions from many sources were crafted in a single sweeping epic that bolstered Josiah's political aims.
New layers would be added to the Exodus story in subsequent centuries – during the exile in Babylonia and beyond. But we can now see how the astonishing composition came together under the pressure of a growing conflict with Egypt in the seventh century BC. The saga of Israel's Exodus from Egypt is neither historical truth nor literary fiction. It is a powerful expression of memory and hope born in a world in the midst of change. The confrontation between Moses and pharoah mirrored the momentous confrontation between the young king Josiah and the newly crowned Pharoah Necho. To pin this biblical image down to a single date us to betray the story's deepest meaning. Passover proves to be not a single event but a continuing experience of national resistance against the powers that be.
You didn't really respond to anything I said. All you did was quote someone who seems to believe exactly as you do.I think this happened a lot in ancient history, because it was so easy back then:
“The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha's inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record, gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha's inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites.”–Farrel Till
I've seen different estimates of the literacy levels of the egyptians, some of them being 1% or up to 1-2% with a writing at .25%. Again, as I said: “IF the only people that could or would write about such an event were the PHAROAHS' scribes, what is the likelyhood that they are going to do this?”
I would think it's rather slim, and if the exodus did happen, then we can't expect that very little would ever have been written about it.
In the early 19th Century a papyrus, dating from the end of the Middle Kingdom, was found in Egypt. It was taken to the Leiden Museum in Holland and interpreted by A.H. Gardiner in 1909. The complete papyrus can be found in the book Admonitions of an Egyptian from a heiratic papyrus in Leiden. The papyrus describes violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves (with the wealth of the Egyptians), and death throughout the land. The papyrus was written by an Egyptian named Ipuwer and appears to be an eyewitness account of the effects of the Exodus plagues from the perspective of an average Egyptian. Below are excerpts from the papyrus together with their parallels in the Book of Exodus.
Of course, not everyone agrees that the papyrus refers to the exodus. Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't.
But my point remains the same: We shouldn't expect a defeated nation to put this on the front page of their papers: “We were defeated by the little guys.”
It just doesn't happen.
“Hatshepsut . . . .She is generally regarded by Egyptologists as one of the most successful pharaohs, reigning longer than any other woman of an indigenous Egyptian dynasty. . . .Toward the end of the reign of Thutmose III, an attempt was made to remove Hatshepsut from certain historical and pharaonic records. This elimination was carried out in the most literal way possible. Her cartouches and images were chiselled off the stone walls—leaving very obvious Hatshepsut-shaped gaps in the artwork—and she was excluded from the official history that was rewritten without acknowledgment of any form of co-regency during the period between Thutmose II to Thutmose III.”–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut
So we know Egyptians could remove history that doesn't suit them.
Quote (david @ April 09 2008,19:02) Quote Yahweh is a bad representation of God. –kejonn
So you believe “God” exists?[/quote]
Most assuredly.
Quote Tell us about him. What is his name? Does he have a name? God is good enough for me, but Yahweh doesn't work anymore. Nor Jehovah (same).
What do you know about him? If the Bible doesn't represent him accurately, why don't you tell us about him….
Or are you not willing to say that God exists? What do you know?
I happen to agree with the view of God given in the Gathas of Zarathushtra. If you want to pin a name to Him, Ahura Mazda.Quote (david @ April 09 2008,19:16) You didn't really respond to anything I said. All you did was quote someone who seems to believe exactly as you do.
What did you say? That you agree with the bible? i was showing that modern archaeologists do NOT agree with the bible.Quote I think this happened a lot in ancient history, because it was so easy back then: “The Moabite Stone, for example, corroborates the biblical claim that there was a king of Moab named Mesha, but the inscription on the stone gives a different account of the war between Moab and the Israelites recorded in 2 Kings 3. Mesha's inscription on the stone claimed overwhelming victory, but the biblical account claims that the Israelites routed the Moabite forces and withdrew only after they saw Mesha sacrifice his eldest son as a burnt offering on the wall of the city the Moabites had retreated to (2 Kings 3:26-27). So the Moabite Stone, rather than corroborating the accuracy of the biblical record, gives reason to suspect that both accounts are biased. Mesha's inscription gave an account favorable to the Moabites, and the biblical account was slanted to favor the Israelites.”–Farrel Till
I've seen different estimates of the literacy levels of the egyptians, some of them being 1% or up to 1-2% with a writing at .25%. Again, as I said: “IF the only people that could or would write about such an event were the PHAROAHS' scribes, what is the likelyhood that they are going to do this?”
I would think it's rather slim, and if the exodus did happen, then we can't expect that very little would ever have been written about it.
In the early 19th Century a papyrus, dating from the end of the Middle Kingdom, was found in Egypt. It was taken to the Leiden Museum in Holland and interpreted by A.H. Gardiner in 1909. The complete papyrus can be found in the book Admonitions of an Egyptian from a heiratic papyrus in Leiden. The papyrus describes violent upheavals in Egypt, starvation, drought, escape of slaves (with the wealth of the Egyptians), and death throughout the land. The papyrus was written by an Egyptian named Ipuwer and appears to be an eyewitness account of the effects of the Exodus plagues from the perspective of an average Egyptian. Below are excerpts from the papyrus together with their parallels in the Book of Exodus.
Of course, not everyone agrees that the papyrus refers to the exodus. Maybe it does, and maybe it doesn't.
But my point remains the same: We shouldn't expect a defeated nation to put this on the front page of their papers: “We were defeated by the little guys.”
It just doesn't happen.
“Hatshepsut . . . .She is generally regarded by Egyptologists as one of the most successful pharaohs, reigning longer than any other woman of an indigenous Egyptian dynasty. . . .Toward the end of the reign of Thutmose III, an attempt was made to remove Hatshepsut from certain historical and pharaonic records. This elimination was carried out in the most literal way possible. Her cartouches and images were chiselled off the stone walls—leaving very obvious Hatshepsut-shaped gaps in the artwork—and she was excluded from the official history that was rewritten without acknowledgment of any form of co-regency during the period between Thutmose II to Thutmose III.”–http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatshepsut
So we know Egyptians could remove history that doesn't suit them.
Wheter they removed it or not, there is 0% evidence of that the Israelites wandered the desert for 40 years. Zero. Unless you solely use the bible as “evidence”. They left nothing behind, and they were supposed to have numbered over 600k people.Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2008,03:26) Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,22:55) It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
How would archeology support the Exodus, if it did, do you think? And how would it prove the Jews were there, if it could?
600,000 people moving around would leave a considerable trail, even lasting to a few thousand years later. You would be able to tell their ethnicity / religion from artefacts. None of this evidence has been found.Stuart
Quote (david @ April 10 2008,09:22) Quote Ah, when Christians don't have an answer, they use the “you don't believe it” ploy. So transparent. Incorrect again.
Does it not seem odd to you that you're arguing that your morality is superior to what you believe is an imaginary person who doesn't exist?
Why not just state plainly what you believe. You cannot have it both ways.
1. God doesn't exist.
2. God's morality is bad.Both these things cannot be true.
Isn't kejonn a god-believer?I would write hypothetically like this, because I can distinguish fantasy from reality.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ April 10 2008,03:48) Quote (david @ April 10 2008,09:22) Quote Ah, when Christians don't have an answer, they use the “you don't believe it” ploy. So transparent. Incorrect again.
Does it not seem odd to you that you're arguing that your morality is superior to what you believe is an imaginary person who doesn't exist?
Why not just state plainly what you believe. You cannot have it both ways.
1. God doesn't exist.
2. God's morality is bad.Both these things cannot be true.
Isn't kejonn a god-believer?I would write hypothetically like this, because I can distinguish fantasy from reality.
Stuart
Actually, since atheists don't believe in God, then it would be.1. God doesn't exist.
2. The bible's morality is bad.Wow!
I can't believe that people carry on such conversations.
So let me get this straight…
According to you you think that:
1.) A Universe just exploded into existence out of nothing. (Of which you can't even explain)(Sounds Divine to me)
2.) In this hugely INSANE process…everything just “Happened” to “Land” in “Just the right spot” (By just the right spot I mean the “PERCISE” spot) to sustain life. Sounds divine to me)
3.) Then life just all by its lonesome just pops into existance from particles and dust on the earth (Sounds divine to me).
4.) This primitive lifeforce “Evolves” into intelegent life over the course of “However long you say”…into what we have today.
All of this in which you have now way of explaining, you just think that you do. But you'd rather go around saying that nothing is responsible for this… it just happened.
I honestly …after looking at what the scientists find it EVEN MORE difficult to not believe in GOD. Than with just the Bible.
Science …In my opinion just PROVES that GOD exists even more so.
I wish people did not think this way…I really wish they did not.
Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,13:16) Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,19:18) Quote (kejonn @ April 08 2008,16:29)
But Yahweh said from the very start, even before Moses went into Egypt, that he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Finally, when Pharaoh was ready to let them go, Yahweh hardened his heart once more, which resulted in the death of the firstborn of Egypt. So Yahweh, according to the bible, manipulated Pharaoh.- Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:3 “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exo 10:28 Then Pharaoh said to him, “Get away from me! Beware, do not see my face again, for in the day you see my face you shall die!”
Exo 10:29 Moses said, “You are right; I shall never see your face again!”Exo 14:4 “Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.
Exo 14:17 “As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
This was all about Yahweh manipulating Pharaoh at every turn.
Hi Kj:I will just have to disagree with you. I have given you my understanding.
Quote 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid God is righteous in all that He does. You may not understand his motives, but I do.
Then what were his motives? Reread the above. Many times Yahweh says he would harden Pharaoh's heart. What choice then did Pharaoh have? He was just a pawn according to the bible. Because of it, many innocent babes and children died in Egypt.
Hi KJ:His motives were to deliver His people out of bondage to Pharaoh and to reconcile them to Himself, and to judge the oppressors of His people.
Killing the firsborn of Egypt is symbolic of the judgment that will be rendered against those who are not born again. God has said that Israel is His firstborn.
Quote (Stu @ April 10 2008,20:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2008,03:26) Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,22:55) It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
How would archeology support the Exodus, if it did, do you think? And how would it prove the Jews were there, if it could?
600,000 people moving around would leave a considerable trail, even lasting to a few thousand years later. You would be able to tell their ethnicity / religion from artefacts. None of this evidence has been found.Stuart
Maybe. But it could be buried – high winds you know. They are finding entire towns that have been buried.Quote (TimothyVI @ April 07 2008,11:23) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,07:06) Hi KJ: You say:
Quote How were men wrong 2000 years ago? They did what Yahweh wanted them too: they put Jesus to death. They did what Yahweh forsaw that they would do not what he wanted them to do. Man has a free will and with that the power to kill the body with whatever is at his disposal. Jesus obeyed God in spite of what man could do to him, and that also is we as his disciples will do.
But wasn't the death of Jesus for our sins the plan of God?TIm
Sin No Longer needed a sacrifice, from 1000 yrs before Jesus lived, In David
Kevin is right, they listened to waffles and prophecy mixed, and made themselves as drunken men, fear of a Man comes when there’s no understanding,Go Know your sins are forgiven, you need not use the hammer and nails left behind, or stand to close to a soon collapsing cross, taking life is blasphemy of Gods free forgiveness
Psa 85:2 Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy [against] the [Holy] Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.charity
Hi tim4,
Men have the choice which aspects of the plan of God they wish to be involved in.
Some choices are better than others.Quote (942767 @ April 10 2008,09:01) Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,13:16) Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,19:18) God is righteous in all that He does. You may not understand his motives, but I do.
Then what were his motives? Reread the above. Many times Yahweh says he would harden Pharaoh's heart. What choice then did Pharaoh have? He was just a pawn according to the bible. Because of it, many innocent babes and children died in Egypt.
Hi KJ:His motives were to deliver His people out of bondage to Pharaoh and to reconcile them to Himself, and to judge the oppressors of His people.
But are you saying he could not have done so without the final plague? The one that resulted in so much Egyptian innocent dead?
Quote Killing the firsborn of Egypt is symbolic of the judgment that will be rendered against those who are not born again. God has said that Israel is His firstborn.
So are you saying this is a symbolic passage (the Exodus) or did it actually happen? Or are you saying that Yahweh killed many as a warning to those who wouldn't accept Jesus — although Jesus had not been heard of?Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2008,11:22) Quote (Stu @ April 10 2008,20:46) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 10 2008,03:26) Quote (kejonn @ April 09 2008,22:55) It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
How would archeology support the Exodus, if it did, do you think? And how would it prove the Jews were there, if it could?
600,000 people moving around would leave a considerable trail, even lasting to a few thousand years later. You would be able to tell their ethnicity / religion from artefacts. None of this evidence has been found.Stuart
Maybe. But it could be buried – high winds you know. They are finding entire towns that have been buried.
Yes, they have found much, but not a single bit of evidence that would support the Israelites being in the desert for 40 years.
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