- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,18:58) TimothyVI,April wrote:Hi 94,
You said “And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.”God told Moses that He would harden pharoes heart so that He could show the Egyptians He was LORD by
bringing on the plagues and killing all of their firstborn. That was why God said that He hardened Pharoes heart,
not as a judgement against his evil deeds.Tim
Hi Tim:God's ultimate purpose through the plagues was to deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage to Pharaoh. If I am understanding all of this correctly, Pharaoh's hardened heart (stubborness), allowed God to show his power through the plagues so that the people of the nation of Israel would know that it was God who had come to deliver them out of bondage, and to bring judgment upon the Pharaoh and his armies and upon the first born of Egypt. (This is symbolic. The first born of Egypt are those who have not been born again. God says that Israel is His firstborn. The death angel passed over them because of the blood of the lamb on the door posts of their house.)
God's purpose:
Quote ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, רָאֹה רָאִיתִי אֶת-עֳנִי עַמִּי אֲשֶׁר בְּמִצְרָיִם; וְאֶת-צַעֲקָתָם שָׁמַעְתִּי מִפְּנֵי נֹגְשָׂיו, כִּי יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-מַכְאֹבָיו. 7 And the LORD said: 'I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their pains;
ח וָאֵרֵד לְהַצִּילוֹ מִיַּד מִצְרַיִם, וּלְהַעֲלֹתוֹ מִן-הָאָרֶץ הַהִוא, אֶל-אֶרֶץ טוֹבָה וּרְחָבָה, אֶל-אֶרֶץ זָבַת חָלָב וּדְבָשׁ–אֶל-מְקוֹם הַכְּנַעֲנִי, וְהַחִתִּי, וְהָאֱמֹרִי וְהַפְּרִזִּי, וְהַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי. 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
ט וְעַתָּה, הִנֵּה צַעֲקַת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל בָּאָה אֵלָי; וְגַם-רָאִיתִי, אֶת-הַלַּחַץ, אֲשֶׁר מִצְרַיִם, לֹחֲצִים אֹתָם. 9 And now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto Me; moreover I have seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them
[/QUOTEט וַאֲ]Quote יט וַאֲנִי יָדַעְתִּי–כִּי לֹא-יִתֵּן אֶתְכֶם מֶלֶךְ מִצְרַיִם, לַהֲלֹךְ: וְלֹא, בְּיָד חֲזָקָה. 19 And I know that the king of Egypt will not give you leave to go, except by a mighty hand.
כ וְשָׁלַחְתִּי אֶת-יָדִי, וְהִכֵּיתִי אֶת-מִצְרַיִם, בְּכֹל נִפְלְאֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּקִרְבּוֹ; וְאַחֲרֵי-כֵן, יְשַׁלַּח אֶתְכֶם. 20 And I will put forth My hand, and smite Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in the midst thereof. And after that he will let you go.Quote כב וְאָמַרְתָּ, אֶל-פַּרְעֹה: כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, בְּנִי בְכֹרִי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.
כג וָאֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ, שַׁלַּח אֶת-בְּנִי וְ
;יַעַבְדֵנִי, וַתְּמָאֵן, לְשַׁלְּחוֹ–הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי הֹרֵג, אֶת-בִּנְךָ בְּכֹרֶךָ. 23 And I have said unto thee: Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and thou hast refused to let him go. Behold, I will slay thy son, thy first-born.'–Quote לא וַיַּאֲמֵן, הָעָם; וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ כִּי-פָקַד יְהוָה אֶת-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְכִי רָאָה אֶת-עָנְיָם, וַיִּקְּדוּ, וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ. 31 And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had remembered the children of Israel, and that He had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped. If I am understanding correctly, Pharaoh refused to let the people of Israel go prior to “God's hardening his heart”.
Quote ב וַיֹּאמֶר פַּרְעֹה–מִי יְהוָה אֲשֶׁר אֶשְׁמַע בְּקֹלוֹ, לְשַׁלַּח אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל: לֹא יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-יְהוָה, וְגַם אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא אֲשַׁלֵּחַ. 2 And Pharaoh said: 'Who is the LORD, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, and moreover I will not let Israel go. Also, sometimes the scriptures state that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and then some scriptures say that God hardened his heart.
But the ulitimate point is that there is no unrighteousness with God. He did what he did so that the people of the Nation of Israel would know that He had come to deliver them out of bondage, and also to bring judgment upon those who had oppressed them.
Quote Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Quote Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
But Yahweh said from the very start, even before Moses went into Egypt, that he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Finally, when Pharaoh was ready to let them go, Yahweh hardened his heart once more, which resulted in the death of the firstborn of Egypt. So Yahweh, according to the bible, manipulated Pharaoh.- Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:3 “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exo 10:28 Then Pharaoh said to him, “Get away from me! Beware, do not see my face again, for in the day you see my face you shall die!”
Exo 10:29 Moses said, “You are right; I shall never see your face again!”Exo 14:4 “Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.
Exo 14:17 “As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
This was all about Yahweh manipulating Pharaoh at every turn.
Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,19:04) Hi KJ: It is not about revenge. It is about judgment against those who persist in evil. Should God allow evil to go unpunished?
What evil did the Egyptian children commit? What evil did the Egyptian babies commit?My take is that an omniscient being would be able to predict anything. Now prediction is not causation. Why then would God allow bad things to happen if he both knows and has the power to prevent same, because that may violate our right to decide or our free will which I think God at least holds sacred. I think the whole God hardened Pharoah's heart is nonsense, God would respect both Pharoah's and Judas' right to make wrong decisions. That God knew how it turned out I have no doubt. For those who wonder why God does not stop his loved children from mistakes; one, we have to have the right to make mistakes or we are no more then robots; two, we learn from our mistakes; three, unlike most here I do not think salvation or damnation rests on a one life test of faith so no mistake is unforgivable or irredeemable, there are consequences for sin, of course, but I doubt they are eternal. I feel even Judas was in the end forgiven and given means for restitution and opportunity for repentence other then his eternal damnation.
Hi cato,
You love the fantasy that all are blessed and life is just a test for the eternal spirit of man?
So now you teach also we live several lives by reincarnation?
Where did I hear that before?Quote (Cato @ April 08 2008,23:41) That God knew how it turned out I have no doubt.
So the training of Jesus, the testing of Jesus, was not necessary at all? God knew he would remain faithful?Quote (Not3in1 @ April 09 2008,07:32) Quote (Cato @ April 08 2008,23:41) That God knew how it turned out I have no doubt.
So the training of Jesus, the testing of Jesus, was not necessary at all? God knew he would remain faithful?
It was necessary; that God could, through divine omniscience, figure the outcome, in no way separated Jesus from his task and decisions which were his alone. We see in Mark 14:35-40 Jesus' anxiety and troubles, many of us have been, like Jesus, in situations where we knew what was right, but the doing so very difficult we would avoid it if we could. Yet when no one takes the responsibility from us, we rise or fall, do the hard right or fall and take the easy path out. God though he can predict our actions, does not make the decisions for us or take the proverbial cup from our hands. Somethings, some tasks we have to overcome our selves if we are to learn, to grow, to evolve. In this Jesus is once again the sublime master, teacher and example for humanity.Quote (kejonn @ April 08 2008,16:29) Quote (942767 @ April 07 2008,18:58) TimothyVI,April wrote:Hi 94,
You said “And so, the hardening of the Pharaoh's heart were judgments from God because of his evil deeds.”God told Moses that He would harden pharoes heart so that He could show the Egyptians He was LORD by
bringing on the plagues and killing all of their firstborn. That was why God said that He hardened Pharoes heart,
not as a judgement against his evil deeds.Tim
Hi Tim:God's ultimate purpose through the plagues was to deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage to Pharaoh. If I am understanding all of this correctly, Pharaoh's hardened heart (stubborness), allowed God to show his power through the plagues so that the people of the nation of Israel would know that it was God who had come to deliver them out of bondage, and to bring judgment upon the Pharaoh and his armies and upon the first born of Egypt. (This is symbolic. The first born of Egypt are those who have not been born again. God says that Israel is His firstborn. The death angel passed over them because of the blood of the lamb on the door posts of their house.)
God's purpose:
Quote ז וַיֹּאמֶר יְהוָה, רָאֹה רָאִיתִי אֶת-עֳנִי עַמִּי אֲשֶׁר בְּמִצְרָיִם; וְאֶת-צַעֲקָתָם שָׁמַעְתִּי מִפְּנֵי נֹגְשָׂיו, כִּי יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-מַכְאֹבָיו. 7 And the LORD said: 'I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their pains;
ח וָאֵרֵד לְהַצִּילוֹ מִיַּד מִצְרַיִם, וּלְהַעֲלֹתוֹ מִן-הָאָרֶץ הַהִוא, אֶל-אֶרֶץ טוֹבָה וּרְחָבָה, אֶל-אֶרֶץ זָבַת חָלָב וּדְבָשׁ–אֶל-מְקוֹם הַכְּנַעֲנִי, וְהַחִתִּי, וְהָאֱמֹרִי וְהַפְּרִזִּי, וְהַחִוִּי וְהַיְבוּסִי. 8 and I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanite, and the Hittite, and the Amorite, and the Perizzite, and the Hivite, and the Jebusite.
ט וְעַתָּה, הִנֵּה צַעֲקַת בְּנֵי-יִשְׂרָאֵל בָּאָה אֵלָי; וְגַם-רָאִיתִי, אֶת-הַלַּחַץ, אֲשֶׁר מִצְרַיִם, לֹחֲצִים אֹתָם. 9 And now, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto Me; moreover I have seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them
[/QUOTEט וַאֲ]Quote יט וַאֲנִי יָדַעְתִּי–כִּי לֹא-יִתֵּן אֶתְכֶם מֶלֶךְ מִצְרַיִם, לַהֲלֹךְ: וְלֹא, בְּיָד חֲזָקָה. 19 And I know that the king of Egypt will not give you leave to go, except by a mighty hand.
כ וְשָׁלַחְתִּי אֶת-יָדִי, וְהִכֵּיתִי אֶת-מִצְרַיִם, בְּכֹל נִפְלְאֹתַי, אֲשֶׁר אֶעֱשֶׂה בְּקִרְבּוֹ; וְאַחֲרֵי-כֵן, יְשַׁלַּח אֶתְכֶם. 20 And I will put forth My hand, and smite Egypt with all My wonders which I will do in the midst thereof. And after that he will let you go.Quote כב וְאָמַרְתָּ, אֶל-פַּרְעֹה: כֹּה אָמַר יְהוָה, בְּנִי בְכֹרִי יִשְׂרָאֵל. 22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh: Thus saith the LORD: Israel is My son, My first-born.
כג וָאֹמַר אֵלֶיךָ, שַׁלַּח אֶת-בְּנִי וְיַעַבְדֵנִי, וַתְּמָאֵן, לְשַׁלְּחוֹ–הִנֵּה אָנֹכִי הֹרֵג, אֶת-בִּנְךָ בְּכֹרֶךָ. 23 And I have said unto thee: Let My son go, that he may serve Me; and thou hast refused to let him go. Behold, I will slay thy son, thy first-born.'–Quote לא וַיַּאֲמֵן, הָעָם; וַיִּשְׁמְעוּ כִּי-פָקַד יְהוָה אֶת-בְּנֵי יִשְׂרָאֵל, וְכִי רָאָה אֶת-עָנְיָם, וַיִּקְּדוּ, וַיִּשְׁתַּחֲווּ. 31 And the people believed; and when they heard that the LORD had remembered the children of Israel, and that He had seen their affliction, then they bowed their heads and worshipped. If I am understanding correctly, Pharaoh refused to let the people of Israel go prior to “God's hardening his heart”.
Quote ב וַיֹּאמֶר פַּרְעֹה–מִי יְהוָה אֲשֶׁר אֶשְׁמַע בְּקֹלוֹ, לְשַׁלַּח אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל: לֹא יָדַעְתִּי אֶת-יְהוָה, וְגַם אֶת-יִשְׂרָאֵל לֹא אֲשַׁלֵּחַ. 2 And Pharaoh said: 'Who is the LORD, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not the LORD, and moreover I will not let Israel go. Also, sometimes the scriptures state that Pharaoh hardened his heart, and then some scriptures say that God hardened his heart.
But the ulitimate point is that there is no unrighteousness with God. He did what he did so that the people of the Nation of Israel would know that He had come to deliver them out of bondage, and also to bring judgment upon those who had oppressed them.
Quote Rom 9:14 ¶ What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Quote Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
But Yahweh said from the very start, even before Moses went into Egypt, that he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Finally, when Pharaoh was ready to let them go, Yahweh hardened his heart once more, which resulted in the death of the firstborn of Egypt. So Yahweh, according to the bible, manipulated Pharaoh.- Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:3 “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exo 10:28 Then Pharaoh said to him, “Get away from me! Beware, do not see my face again, for in the day you see my face you shall die!”
Exo 10:29 Moses said, “You are right; I shall never see your face again!”Exo 14:4 “Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.
Exo 14:17 “As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
This was all about Yahweh manipulating Pharaoh at every turn.
Hi Kj:I will just have to disagree with you. I have given you my understanding.
Quote 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid God is righteous in all that He does. You may not understand his motives, but I do.
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 08 2008,16:20) Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,16:11) I really wish that I could comfort you regarding your sister, but I cannot.
What do you mean?
Hi Mandy:I mean that God is merciful and is willing to forgive if we repent when we do wrong. However, you said that your sister killed herself. I don't see how it is possible for someone to repent when they have done this. The best that I can do is tell you that I know that my Father and my God is a righteous God and I totally trust that He will always do the right thing.
Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,19:18) Quote (kejonn @ April 08 2008,16:29)
But Yahweh said from the very start, even before Moses went into Egypt, that he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Finally, when Pharaoh was ready to let them go, Yahweh hardened his heart once more, which resulted in the death of the firstborn of Egypt. So Yahweh, according to the bible, manipulated Pharaoh.- Exo 4:21 The LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.
Exo 7:3 “But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.
Exo 10:28 Then Pharaoh said to him, “Get away from me! Beware, do not see my face again, for in the day you see my face you shall die!”
Exo 10:29 Moses said, “You are right; I shall never see your face again!”Exo 14:4 “Thus I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will chase after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.” And they did so.
Exo 14:17 “As for Me, behold, I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians so that they will go in after them; and I will be honored through Pharaoh and all his army, through his chariots and his horsemen.
This was all about Yahweh manipulating Pharaoh at every turn.
Hi Kj:I will just have to disagree with you. I have given you my understanding.
Quote 14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid God is righteous in all that He does. You may not understand his motives, but I do.
Then what were his motives? Reread the above. Many times Yahweh says he would harden Pharaoh's heart. What choice then did Pharaoh have? He was just a pawn according to the bible. Because of it, many innocent babes and children died in Egypt.Broken record Nick. These were just legends written by ancient men to show that Yahweh favored them over others.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 09 2008,13:39) Hi KJ,
You would judge even the motives of God?
Hello Nick, how are we going to judge things like woman having babies at 100 yrs old?Impossible? crazy eyes, tormenting faith,
Preferring to Judge the gods to the side first, still loving God and desiring all truth TO HEALTHYNESS OF LIFE
Quote (942767 @ April 09 2008,12:27) Quote (Not3in1 @ April 08 2008,16:20) Quote (942767 @ April 08 2008,16:11) I really wish that I could comfort you regarding your sister, but I cannot.
What do you mean?
Hi Mandy:I mean that God is merciful and is willing to forgive if we repent when we do wrong. However, you said that your sister killed herself. I don't see how it is possible for someone to repent when they have done this. The best that I can do is tell you that I know that my Father and my God is a righteous God and I totally trust that He will always do the right thing.
I guess there is no room for, “….forgive them, for they know not what they do….” in your theology, brother? It's OK, it's a tough call. As you say, we'll leave this one to God.I just find it hard to believe that God knew all along while my sister was worshiping him and leading other's to Christ, that she would end her life so tragically. How could he have possibly accepted her praise? How could he have been joyful at her witness of him and his son, when he knew she would commit such unspeakable crimes against humanity?
Quote Then what were his motives? Reread the above. Many times Yahweh says he would harden Pharaoh's heart. What choice then did Pharaoh have? He was just a pawn according to the bible. Because of it, many innocent babes and children died in Egypt. –kejonn
First, kejonn, you don't believe any of this. You don't believe in Yahweh or that he did any of this, or that these children died. So please don't argue that your morality is better than God's based on what you don't even believe he did!
Secondly, you, like many, misunderstand this scripture.
Jehovah foreknew that Pharaoh would refuse permission for the Israelites to leave “except by a strong hand” (Ex 3:19, 20)
The apostle Paul’s discussion of God’s dealings with Pharaoh is often incorrectly understood to mean that God arbitrarily hardens the heart of individuals according to his foreordained purpose, without regard for the individual’s prior inclination, or heart attitude. (Ro 9:14-18) Likewise, according to many translations, God advised Moses that he would “harden [Pharaoh’s] heart.” (Ex 4:21; compare Ex 9:12; 10:1, 27.)
However, some translations render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); “let [Pharaoh’s] heart become obstinate.” (NW) In support of such rendering, the appendix to Rotherham’s translation shows that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that “even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission.”
Example:
At Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death.After quoting Hebrew scholars M. M. Kalisch, H. F. W. Gesenius, and B. Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.
Quote God's ultimate purpose through the plagues was to deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage to Pharaoh. If I am understanding all of this correctly, Pharaoh's hardened heart (stubborness), allowed God to show his power through the plagues so that the people of the nation of Israel would know that it was God who had come to deliver them out of bondage, Just to add, something some might not consider: Those plagues were not just blows against the nation. They were blows against the gods of Egypt.
The Nile River and all the waters of Egypt into blood–Pharaoh and his people learned that Jehovah was superior to the Nile-god, Hapi.
The death of fish in the Nile was also a blow to Egyptian religion, for certain kinds of fish were venerated.—Exodus 7:19-21.
Next, Jehovah brought a plague of frogs upon Egypt. This discredited the Egyptian frog-goddess, Heqt. (Exodus 8:5-14)
The third plague confounded the magic-practicing priests, who were unable to duplicate Jehovah’s miracle of turning dust into gnats. “It is the finger of God!” they cried. (Exodus 8:16-19)
The Egyptian god Thoth, credited with the invention of magical arts, was unable to help those charlatans.During the fourth plague, gadflies ruined the land, invaded houses, and probably swarmed through the air, which was itself an object of worship personified in the god Shu or in the goddess Isis, queen of heaven.
The fifth plague was a pestilence upon Egyptian livestock. This blow disgraced Hathor, Apis, and the cow-bodied sky-goddess Nut. (Exodus 9:1-7)
The sixth plague brought boils upon man and beast, humiliating the deities Thoth, Isis, and Ptah, wrongly accredited with healing abilities.—Exodus 9:8-11.
The seventh plague was heavy hail, with fire quivering among the hailstones. This blow shamed the god Reshpu, supposed master of lightning, and Thoth, said to preside over rain and thunder. (Exodus 9:22-26)
The eighth blow, a locust plague, showed Jehovah’s superiority over the fertility god Min, supposedly the protector of crops. (Exodus 10:12-15)
The ninth blow, a three-day darkness over Egypt, poured contempt on such Egyptian deities as the sun-gods Ra and Horus.—Exodus 10:21-23.
The plagues demonstrated Jehovah’s superiority over Egyptian deities. (Exodus 12:12; Numbers 33:4)
EXODUS 12:12
“And I must pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I shall execute judgments. I am Jehovah.”NUMBERS 33:4
“All the while the Egyptians were burying those whom Jehovah had struck among them, that is, all the firstborn; and upon their gods Jehovah had executed judgments.”“WHO is Jehovah?” Defiance apparently moved Pharoah to add: “I do not know Jehovah at all.”
“Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice?”Pharoah was given answers to these questions.
Quote (david @ April 08 2008,23:03) Quote Then what were his motives? Reread the above. Many times Yahweh says he would harden Pharaoh's heart. What choice then did Pharaoh have? He was just a pawn according to the bible. Because of it, many innocent babes and children died in Egypt. –kejonn
First, kejonn, you don't believe any of this. You don't believe in Yahweh or that he did any of this, or that these children died. So please don't argue that your morality is better than God's based on what you don't even believe he did!
Ah, when Christians don't have an answer, they use the “you don't believe it” ploy. So transparent.Quote Secondly, you, like many, misunderstand this scripture. Jehovah foreknew that Pharaoh would refuse permission for the Israelites to leave “except by a strong hand” (Ex 3:19, 20)
Well duh, because Yahweh hardened his heart to make it so!! But this says that he would not let them go except under compulsion. It seems that the level of compulsion was enough BEFORE the final plague, yet the bible says Yahweh hardened his heart yet again. Thus, innocent children and babies died.
- Exo 10:24 Then Pharaoh called to Moses, and said, “Go, serve the LORD; only let your flocks and your herds be detained. Even your little ones may go with you.”
Exo 10:25 But Moses said, “You must also let us have sacrifices and burnt offerings, that we may sacrifice them to the LORD our God.
Exo 10:26 “Therefore, our livestock too shall go with us; not a hoof shall be left behind, for we shall take some of them to serve the LORD our God. And until we arrive there, we ourselves do not know with what we shall serve the LORD.”
Exo 10:27 But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he was not willing to let them go.What was this all about? Either Yahweh got his animals to be sacrificed (another indication that Yahweh was into death) or he would not have anything. So he hardened Pharaoh's heart again so that the last plague could be carried out.
Yahweh just loves to either kill living beings or see them killed it seems.
Quote The apostle Paul’s discussion of God’s dealings with Pharaoh is often incorrectly understood to mean that God arbitrarily hardens the heart of individuals according to his foreordained purpose, without regard for the individual’s prior inclination, or heart attitude. (Ro 9:14-18) Likewise, according to many translations, God advised Moses that he would “harden [Pharaoh’s] heart.” (Ex 4:21; compare Ex 9:12; 10:1, 27.) However, some translations render the Hebrew account to read that Jehovah “let [Pharaoh’s] heart wax bold” (Ro); “let [Pharaoh’s] heart become obstinate.” (NW) In support of such rendering, the appendix to Rotherham’s translation shows that in Hebrew the occasion or permission of an event is often presented as if it were the cause of the event, and that “even positive commands are occasionally to be accepted as meaning no more than permission.”
Example:
At Exodus 1:17 the original Hebrew text literally says that the midwives “caused the male children to live,” whereas in reality they permitted them to live by refraining from putting them to death.After quoting Hebrew scholars M. M. Kalisch, H. F. W. Gesenius, and B. Davies in support, Rotherham states that the Hebrew sense of the texts involving Pharaoh is that “God permitted Pharaoh to harden his own heart—spared him—gave him the opportunity, the occasion, of working out the wickedness that was in him. That is all.”—The Emphasised Bible, appendix, p. 919; compare Isa 10:5-7.
Whatever the case, Yahweh manipulated Pharaoh so he could get out his final act of retribution. Your play on words does not change this.Quote (david @ April 08 2008,23:12) Quote God's ultimate purpose through the plagues was to deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage to Pharaoh. If I am understanding all of this correctly, Pharaoh's hardened heart (stubborness), allowed God to show his power through the plagues so that the people of the nation of Israel would know that it was God who had come to deliver them out of bondage, Just to add, something some might not consider: Those plagues were not just blows against the nation. They were blows against the gods of Egypt.
So there are other gods?Quote The Nile River and all the waters of Egypt into blood–Pharaoh and his people learned that Jehovah was superior to the Nile-god, Hapi. The death of fish in the Nile was also a blow to Egyptian religion, for certain kinds of fish were venerated.—Exodus 7:19-21.
Next, Jehovah brought a plague of frogs upon Egypt. This discredited the Egyptian frog-goddess, Heqt. (Exodus 8:5-14)
The third plague confounded the magic-practicing priests, who were unable to duplicate Jehovah’s miracle of turning dust into gnats. “It is the finger of God!” they cried. (Exodus 8:16-19)
The Egyptian god Thoth, credited with the invention of magical arts, was unable to help those charlatans.During the fourth plague, gadflies ruined the land, invaded houses, and probably swarmed through the air, which was itself an object of worship personified in the god Shu or in the goddess Isis, queen of heaven.
The fifth plague was a pestilence upon Egyptian livestock. This blow disgraced Hathor, Apis, and the cow-bodied sky-goddess Nut. (Exodus 9:1-7)
The sixth plague brought boils upon man and beast, humiliating the deities Thoth, Isis, and Ptah, wrongly accredited with healing abilities.—Exodus 9:8-11.
The seventh plague was heavy hail, with fire quivering among the hailstones. This blow shamed the god Reshpu, supposed master of lightning, and Thoth, said to preside over rain and thunder. (Exodus 9:22-26)
The eighth blow, a locust plague, showed Jehovah’s superiority over the fertility god Min, supposedly the protector of crops. (Exodus 10:12-15)
The ninth blow, a three-day darkness over Egypt, poured contempt on such Egyptian deities as the sun-gods Ra and Horus.—Exodus 10:21-23.
The plagues demonstrated Jehovah’s superiority over Egyptian deities. (Exodus 12:12; Numbers 33:4)
EXODUS 12:12
“And I must pass through the land of Egypt on this night and strike every firstborn in the land of Egypt, from man to beast; and on all the gods of Egypt I shall execute judgments. I am Jehovah.”NUMBERS 33:4
“All the while the Egyptians were burying those whom Jehovah had struck among them, that is, all the firstborn; and upon their gods Jehovah had executed judgments.”“WHO is Jehovah?” Defiance apparently moved Pharoah to add: “I do not know Jehovah at all.”
“Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice?”Pharoah was given answers to these questions.
It was all a neat story, but not supported in any other annuls of history. Archeology does not support the Exodus, nor that a large number of Jews were ever in Egypt.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
