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For whatever reason, I decided to look into the origins of the Devil and the demons, etc. One of your articles states, "Satan then spread his lies to other beings and all that followed his philosophy suffered the same fate as himself, that was to be eternally seperated from God. This is why Man dies, because God is life and Man is also seperated from God. When Satan looked to himself, he planted a seed. That seed grew in him and consumed his whole being. The seed grew like a tree and one third of the Angels became corrupted by his lies and became like the branches of that tree."
But where in the Bible does it give this account?? I have looked everywhere and found nothing. When I asked people who I thought would know about this, all they gave me was fragmented pieces from the bible that seemed to make their point, but it really didn’t. Your article quotes Ezekiel 28:17 but that isn’t talking about Satan, it is a prophecy against the King of Tyre. If anyone can support their claims of Lucifer being the most beautiful of the archangels or whatever, I would love to hear it. So would my dad, I’ve piqued his interest as well since he had no answer for me.Ok here is my explanation as to why I wrote what I wrote and why I quoted Ezekiel 28:17 in the context you have mentioned:
=========================================================Satan then spread his lies to other beings and all that followed his philosophy suffered the same fate as himself, that was to be eternally seperated from God.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”Revelation 2:24
Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan's so called deep secrets (I will not impose any other burden on you):Acts 13:10
“You are a child of the devil and an enemy of everything that is right! You are full of all kinds of deceit and trickery. Will you never stop perverting the right ways of the Lord?So all practicing liars will partake of the second death and Satan is the Father of Lies. Therefore all who follow Satans lies (philosophies/secrets), will partake of the second death. Now if the children of the Devil are the enemy of all that is right and are full of deceit and trickery, then how much more is the Devil himself full of these things.
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When Satan looked to himself, he planted a seed.
Looking to one self means that you are no longer looking at God. That is why the scriptures condemn self sufficiency or doing things in your own strength and it is also why Adam and Eve realised they were naked. When they looked to God, they were clothed in his glory and their eyes were fixed on God not themselves. But when they sinned, they realised that they were naked because the glory was gone and they were looking at themselves. Their understanding had changed also. Now if Adam and Eve looked to themselves when they sinned, then surely the first to sin, that is the Devil, did the same thing
It is obvious that Satan looks to himself as he is the Father of Lies and the Father of Murderers. On the other hand our Heavenly Father also looks to himself too, because he is also a Father/Originator. He is the Father of our Spirits (Hebrews 12:9), infact the Father of all good things, (James 1:17). A Father is the source and therefore it is us who should be looking to the Heavenly Father, just as those who murder and lie look to Satan even if they do not realise it. Satan created lies and murder, so those who do such things follow his footsteps. So it is obvious that Satan looks to himself, he is his own god. No one taught him how to lie or murder, he was the first. He does such things of his own accord. His children will do the same.
That seed grew in him and consumed his whole being.
18 …… So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you, and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.The seed grew like a tree and one third of the Angels became corrupted by his lies and became like the branches of that tree.”
Revelation 12:4
His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down, that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.================================
Ezekiel 28 has 2 proclaimations of judgement. The first is given to the ruler (ruler, prince, prince-overseer) of Tyre. It is obvious from reading it that it is talking to the Man who rules Tyre. This quote in verse 2 should be sufficient, “But you are a man and not a god,”
The second judgement is given to the King (King, Royal) of Tyre. Now a King is of higher position than a Ruler, (like the Pharoah and Joseph). So who is the King of Tyre?
Who is the one who gives worldly power? Who was behind the Pharoah? Who was behind Rome? Who is behind the Antichrist?
The answer is Satan.
Matthew 4:8-11
8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”
10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.”
11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Now it says in verse 14, a guardian cherub, for so I ordained you. Now a cherub is certainly not a man, but an angel and this particular angel is a guardian meaning the anointed.12 …You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
Would God speak such words to a man, if we are all sinners?15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created till wickedness was found in you.
Again would God say such words to a man? Maybe Adam as he along with his wife were the only people who was once perfect.17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
If God threw a man to the earth, then where did that man come from? Have a look at the following verse.
Luke 10:18
He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.
&
Revelation 12:7-9
7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.
8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.
9 The great dragon was hurled down, that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
What man was in Eden. As we know there were only Adam and Eve.
But we also know that the Serpent, the Devil or Satan was there.================================
So my conclusion is this. What I have shown you is certainly not really clear from the scriptures and you need to study the scripture in order to extract this argument. People extract information from scripture in such a manner for at least 2 possible reasons that I can think of.
- A verse here and a verse there can be taken out of context, so we can make the scriptures say something that wasn't intended. If this is the case, then it was not intentional.
- Satan's origin is not the focus of the scripture, rather God and his Christ. However due to the amount of scripture and revelation, there will be hints of things outside of the scriptures main focus that we can refer to and I have used such verses to build a picture. Such a conclusion must agree with teaching and doctrine and there can be no
conflicts.
Now I have mentioned in the trinity post that there are 2 types of things we believe in. Variables and absolutes. A variable is something we are allowed to have an opinion on, such as Jesus had black hair. An absolute is something that we must believe in order to have true faith. e.g Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or we must repent of our sins.
I think the theories on the origin of Satan are variables. In other words if I believe one thing and you another, it shouldn't drive a wedge between us, nor will such opinions affect our salvation if we are saved. I said what I said because I believe it to be correct. But of course I consider myself teachable and am open to continuing this discussion and even admitting I was wrong if it can be shown so.
Dear Sir,
First of all, thank you for your prompt, yet thorough reply to my post. I appreciate the information.
Now comes the part that I bother you with more questions.
If the common idea of the origin of Satan is only an inferrence, why is this one idea so widely taught? When I look at the verses that I have seen in the Bible, I could come up with many conclusions about what is correct, and all of them would have scriptural support. Take this one for example:
The devil has always been as he is now and he currently dwells in Heaven. 1John 3:8 states that the devil has been sinning since the beginning. John 8:44 contains the same inferrence of the devil being since the beginning. Job states clearly that the devil presented himself before God. Revelation 12 is prophetic, not an historical account, so I would take that to say the whole ordeal with the dragon and the woman is yet to happen. It will be then that the Devil is cast permanently from Heaven.
I am not saying that this idea is true, or that it is scriptually sound, but I hope my point is clear.
My next question is as to the first implementation of this as dogma (i.e. who did it and when).
I am grateful for your help.Your quote:
If the common idea of the origin of Satan is only an inferrence, why is this one idea so widely taught?
First of all, many things are taught by inference. That is why we have to study the Word. It's not all spoon fed teaching in the scriptures. Some things have to be studied deeply, so that only those who actually bother will know and the lazy will remain ignorant. A bit like panning for gold and truth is more precious than gold right!. Also as mentioned before, this subject isn't the focus of scripture, but it is there to support the focus and I think that other possible conclusions as to the origin of Satan contradict scripture. We can go through them one by one if necessary.Your quote:
When I look at the verses that I have seen in the Bible, I could come up with many conclusions about what is correct, and all of them would have scriptural support.
Other interpretations that I know of conflict with scripture and doctrine in my opinion.Your quote: (but not necessarily your belief)
The devil has always been as he is now and he currently dwells in Heaven.I think that there are many verses that show that God is the only one from everlasting to everlasting and creation (including men, angels and other forms of life) came after as a direct result of Gods creating power. God created all things through his Word and his Word is the only one who was not created. He was born/begotten. So God begat a Son and then God created all things through his son and for him. The Devil is not mentioned at this point and if the Devil were present (there are no scriptures or doctrine that back up such a notion), then the scriptures conflict and it would also mean that Satan would be a God too (like the Most High). That would make 2 Gods. One good and one evil. This doctrine sounds a bit like Yin and Yang and contradicts biblical scripture in a big way.
However I think that this is one of the major doctrines of the Devil (doctrine of demons), where Satan is suppose to be an apposing force that has always existed like God, or that Satan is one half of God himself.
Anyway here are some scriptures to look at. They show us that nothing exists outside of God who created all things good in the beginning and we know that when God made creation, he said it was good. The conclusion is that evil and corruption came later and as the direct will of another or others, not God. The scriptures tell us that God is perfect and there is no darkness in him whatsoever.
Colossians 1:15-16
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.John 1:3
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.We conclude that God is not the author of evil and we see time and time again in scripture that God cannot even look upon sin, nor can he be tempted by it. When we read the account in the Garden of Eden for example, we can see innocence and good, being corrupted by the Devil. As you can see, this is not the work of God, rather it is the Devil who is doing the spoiling and it is clear that this was against the will of God.
Your quote: (but not necessarily your belief)
……………… and he currently dwells in Heaven.Well we also know from the Book of Acts and the Gospels that demons inhabited people on earth. This suggests that these demons are earth bound. Once Jesus cast out some demons and they asked to enter a herd of pigs. This doesn't sound like the sort of thing demons would do if they had access to Heaven. Why would demons control people from an earthly position if they have access to Heavenly positions. We know that the Devil is really angry at the fact that he was cast down. Yet the demons don't seem to mind working at this level if they indeed have access to Heaven. (Just a thought, nothing more).
Revelation 12
1 A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.
2 She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.
3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.
4 His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born.
5 She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.Who is the woman? Catholics say Mary, but I think Israel. See (Genesis 37:9-10)
Who is the child. I think that it has to be Jesus.If so, then according to the order of this account we see that the angels fell first, then the attempted killing of the child Jesus.
Matthew 2:16
Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and all its vicinity, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the magi.& (as mentioned before)
Luke 10:17-18
The seventy-two returned with joy and said, “Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.”
18 He replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.So Jesus is referring to the Fall of Satan in the past tense, while they are casting out these demons from earth bound people.
As far as Satan sinning from the beginning, here is my take.
Yes we know that the LORD laid the foundations of the earth and the universe in the beginning.Matthew 19:4
“Haven't you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,'This is referring to creation.
John 8:44
You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.Is this referring to creation?
John 6:64
Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.Is this referring to creation?
John 15:27
And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.Acts 11:15
“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning.Are the last 2 verses referring to creation? Certainly not.
All the above instances of the word 'beginning' use the Greek word arche {ar-khay'}
Beginning is a term that is used to describe the start of something. It is not used exclusively to define creation, although it may be the most common usage of the word.Most biblical scholars conclude that Satan was created perfect in the beginning because scriptures tell us that God is light and there is no darkness in him. He creates only good things, but he does allow bad things, only because he respects the free will of others. There are a lot of scriptures to demonstrate this. Referring to creation, I remind you of the following words 'and God saw that it was good'.
Because he creates good things only and he allows bad things, we conclude that God didn't create Satan (in that evil state) as this contradicts too many scriptures and is a blot
on the character of God.Again, this is another thing that needs to be studied in order to see it. There are plenty of references in the bible, when put together, gives us a clear enough picture to teach such things.
Dear Sir,
Thank you for the information that you provided me. You have proven yourself a wealth of information, one which I hope to tap into should other such perplexing questions arise.Respectfully,
Hi t8,
When the woman gives birth to the child in Rev 12 you say the woman is Israel [ot]and I agree.
But then if the woman is a symbol then could not the child also be a symbol- of the church[nt]? If it was Mary then it would be Jesus but if not?
The Body of Christ always is connected to Jesus himself so yes Jesus and his church will return to rule and judge.In which case the snatching away could be the rescue of the living church at the return of Jesus?
In which case the throwing out from heaven of Satan and his angels is timed with the onset of the tribulation.
What do you think?
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