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Quote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,06:16) Hi KW,
What does conception mean to you?It means the start of a new human being. It is a trick question with identical twins since you have the parent whom is is conceived of two gametes 1 from each grandparent. The parent can be said to perish when undergoing mitosis and to some point surviving in its two children, but don't we all. It is possible the parent is one of the two surviving organism but I do not know one way or another. What I know is that scientifically reproduction has occurred that does not involve either a male or female gamete.
Hi KW,
Are you confusing scientific terms about origins with scriptural conception?
Both John and Jesus were said to have been conceived scriptuallyHi Brother Kerwin:
About this discussion:
Quote Quote We are sons of God by the Spirit of adoption.
That Spirit is called both the Spirit of Sonship and the Spirit of Christ. Since it makes us sons then how much more does it make Jesus The Son since it is through him that those that believe are made sons.
My point is that Jesus is in the unique postion of being the “ONLY Begotten Son of God” whereas we are sons by the Spirit of adoption, but of course, it is through the Spirit of Christ that he was declared to be the Son of God after he had obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. If he had sinned, he would not have been declared to be the Son of God by the resurrection from the dead, and we would have no hope. It is through this Spirit, the Word of God or the commandments that have come to God to humanity through Jesus that we are the sons of God when we have been born again and are obeying the commandments.
About the following discussion:
Quote Quote All of humanity, except for Jesus, were born of the sperm of man, and the scripture states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
True in a way but there are quirks in the system since identical twins are actually grandchildren of their father as well as their mother since they are reproduced by mitosis and not in the normal way of fission of gametes.
You are assuming that sperm is needed for reproduction in human beings but that is not necessary as I showed above. Mary would be the original organism and one of her egg cells, or any other cell for that matter, would have become Jesus through a miracle of God brought on by the workings of the Spirit of God with no fusion of separate gametes necessary.
You are getting a little too deep here for me. It is something that I will have to study, but according to the scriptures, the sperm was definitely not needed in the case of Jesus. At least not directly.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (SEEKING @ April 29 2009,17:48) Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2009,14:45) Quote (SEEKING @ April 29 2009,13:03) Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,19:56) . I think that the term “heavenly body” is a simile for the term “spiritual body.” Look at this again and tell me what you think: Won't that be cool! We get a cooler body someday. The Son had to give up His cool heavenly body for this very limited earthly body. He in a sense, handicapped Himself. Now He is restored to a heavenly/spiritual body. IMO
God bless ya,
Kathi
Kathi,I believe you are right that Spitirual/Heavenly body can be taken synonomously.
I also gain much more encouragement and enlightenment from this type of dialogue than the ones that are striving to prove specific doctrine.
As if we know!
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi Seeking,
I appreciate the spirit in which you write and your insight. Keep it up! I wish there were more of you around here.
God's love,
Kathi
I'm honored and blessed. Thank you!With some I feel a kindred spirit. You are one of them.
Blessings,
Seeking
Thanks!Despite what others may have come here for, I came because I was like-minded with the foundation of HN. I didn't come to argue but to discuss things that I was understanding and to test them. Also, I wanted fellowship with those like-minded. I want to be teachable yet careful and wise so as not to be mislead. I have grown quite a bit and need to know the difference between discussing and arguing because that is not what I believe children of GOD should be doing. I don't believe that is shining good light for the readers. So, all that to say, I hope we have many fruitful discussions here and know when to abandon a potential argument before it breaks out and is destructive with those of unlike minds. This is good practice for me to strengthen that.
I think I will go and encourage someone tonight,
KathiQuote (Nick Hassan @ April 30 2009,06:29) Hi KW,
Are you confusing scientific terms about origins with scriptural conception?
Both John and Jesus were said to have been conceived scriptually
Scripture is speaking of the start of a new human being when it speaks of conception. I am using the scientific explanation as an example of Jesus' conception and how it occurred. Scripture is certainly not that technical but we know Jesus was a descendant of David through his mother Mary and had no father except of the Spirit.I know my last words can confuse some as they can be interpreted in different ways but I know of no better way to say it.
Quote (Lightenup @ April 30 2009,11:51) Quote (SEEKING @ April 29 2009,17:48) Quote (Lightenup @ April 29 2009,14:45) Quote (SEEKING @ April 29 2009,13:03) Quote (Lightenup @ April 28 2009,19:56) . I think that the term “heavenly body” is a simile for the term “spiritual body.” Look at this again and tell me what you think: Won't that be cool! We get a cooler body someday. The Son had to give up His cool heavenly body for this very limited earthly body. He in a sense, handicapped Himself. Now He is restored to a heavenly/spiritual body. IMO
God bless ya,
Kathi
Kathi,I believe you are right that Spitirual/Heavenly body can be taken synonomously.
I also gain much more encouragement and enlightenment from this type of dialogue than the ones that are striving to prove specific doctrine.
As if we know!
Blessings,
Seeking
Hi Seeking,
I appreciate the spirit in which you write and your insight. Keep it up! I wish there were more of you around here.
God's love,
Kathi
I'm honored and blessed. Thank you!With some I feel a kindred spirit. You are one of them.
Blessings,
Seeking
Thanks!Despite what others may have come here for, I came because I was like-minded with the foundation of HN. I didn't come to argue but to discuss things that I was understanding and to test them. Also, I wanted fellowship with those like-minded. I want to be teachable yet careful and wise so as not to be mislead. I have grown quite a bit and need to know the difference between discussing and arguing because that is not what I believe children of GOD should be doing. I don't believe that is shining good light for the readers. So, all that to say, I hope we have many fruitful discussions here and know when to abandon a potential argument before it breaks out and is destructive with those of unlike minds. This is good practice for me to strengthen that.
I think I will go and encourage someone tonight,
Kathi
Kathi! You making a good point. I also have stopped posting on a tread, because I found it was making no difference.
Most here have made up their minds and even tho some of us have made good efforts, to show and prove to them how, wrong they are. In such cases it is better not post.
IMO Peace and Love IreneHi brother Marty,
Thanks for your concern for me and my family here. We all are doing well. Hope things are well with you too. I appreciate your replies to my post. But the problem here is our Bible is not coming in black and white as you quoted that Jesus is only the literal Son of God or begotten directly of God and we will be adopted sons. No where it is clear from our Bible that Jesus became Son of God literally I mean by God fathering Jesus physically.As brother Kerwin says we are also children of God by being reborn by the Spirit of God. Brother Nick says Jesus was reborn of God at Jordan. If so where is the question of Jesus becoming son of God in a deferent way from us. The adoption what Paul talks about and I believe is the only way one can become the son of God. Though it not clear in case of Jesus but some scholars believe that Jesus became son of God at Jordan by the same adoption through the spirit of God.
Many may not agree with me. But this is the only way we can clarify Jesus sonship apart from his flesh and blood relation which can only happen with human parents but not with a God who is Spirit by nature.
Thanks and peace to you
AdamKerwin said:
Quote That Spirit is called both the Spirit of Sonship and the Spirit of Christ. Since it makes us sons then how much more does it make Jesus The Son since it is through him that those that believe are made sons. Kerwin,
Jesus was made the Son of God by His own acts of righteousness. Where do you get the idea that the Spirit made Jesus the Son of God?thinker
gollumandi said:
Quote Though it not clear in case of Jesus but some scholars believe that Jesus became son of God at Jordan by the same adoption through the spirit of God. Brother gollumandi,
Jesus was not an adopted son. He was God's only begotten.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ May 01 2009,07:36) gollumandi said: Quote Though it not clear in case of Jesus but some scholars believe that Jesus became son of God at Jordan by the same adoption through the spirit of God. Brother gollumandi,
Jesus was not an adopted son. He was God's only begotten.thinker
Amen Thinker. WE are the ones adopted as sons (and daughters).Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
And we are joint heirs –
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.GOOD NEWS!
Seeking
Quote (SEEKING @ May 02 2009,02:50) Quote (thethinker @ May 01 2009,07:36) gollumandi said: Quote Though it not clear in case of Jesus but some scholars believe that Jesus became son of God at Jordan by the same adoption through the spirit of God. Brother gollumandi,
Jesus was not an adopted son. He was God's only begotten.thinker
Amen Thinker. WE are the ones adopted as sons (and daughters).Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
And we are joint heirs –
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.GOOD NEWS!
Seeking
Brother Seeking!Ditto amens to you!
Bruce
Quote (thethinker @ May 01 2009,21:34) Kerwin said: Quote That Spirit is called both the Spirit of Sonship and the Spirit of Christ. Since it makes us sons then how much more does it make Jesus The Son since it is through him that those that believe are made sons. Kerwin,
Jesus was made the Son of God by His own acts of righteousness. Where do you get the idea that the Spirit made Jesus the Son of God?thinker
I got the idea because the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Sonship.Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2009,02:34) Kerwin said: Quote That Spirit is called both the Spirit of Sonship and the Spirit of Christ. Since it makes us sons then how much more does it make Jesus The Son since it is through him that those that believe are made sons. Kerwin,
Jesus was made the Son of God by His own acts of righteousness. Where do you get the idea that the Spirit made Jesus the Son of God?thinker
Hi KW,
His own acts of righteousness?
Filthy rags?God announced that Jesus was His son before he did anything in his given divine powers.
Quote (SEEKING @ May 02 2009,02:50) Quote (thethinker @ May 01 2009,07:36) gollumandi said: Quote Though it not clear in case of Jesus but some scholars believe that Jesus became son of God at Jordan by the same adoption through the spirit of God. Brother gollumandi,
Jesus was not an adopted son. He was God's only begotten.thinker
Amen Thinker. WE are the ones adopted as sons (and daughters).Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
And we are joint heirs –
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs–heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.GOOD NEWS!
Seeking
Hi S,
So we are adopted into the family of God by rebirth from above.The Spirit given to him at the Jordan that united him to God enables us also to join that family of the Spirit.
Kerwin said:
Quote I got the idea because the Spirit is also called the Spirit of Sonship. Where does the Bible say that the Spirit is called the Spirit od Sonship especially in reference to Jesus?
thinker
Nick said:
Quote His own acts of righteousness?
Filthy rags?God announced that Jesus was His son before he did anything in his given divine powers.
God said that Jesus was His Son “in whom I am well pleased.” If God was not “well pleased” with Jesus would he have called him His Son?
thinker
Quote His own acts of righteousness?
Filthy rags?What's this “filthy rags” thing? You're not saying that Jesus' works of righteousness were filthy rags are you?
thinker
Hi TT,
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.No man can produce good without the empowering of God.
Quote (thethinker @ May 02 2009,08:13) Nick said: Quote His own acts of righteousness?
Filthy rags?God announced that Jesus was His son before he did anything in his given divine powers.
God said that Jesus was His Son “in whom I am well pleased.” If God was not “well pleased” with Jesus would he have called him His Son?
thinker
Hi TT,
He was announced to be God's son and God was pleased with him.He was not a son because God was pleased with him.
This was way before his resurrection.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 02 2009,08:27) Hi TT,
Isaiah 64:6
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.No man can produce good without the empowering of God.
Do you mean to include Jesus when you say “we are all as an unclean thing”?thinker
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