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kerwin
Quote My understanding of Revelations is limited so please explain what you have come to explain and quote the scriptures it was revealed to you through. Thank you! Edited by kerwin on June 29 2011,22:15
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Your Fellow Student,Kerwin
I have explain to you ,and presented the scriptures that are relevant to what i have stated ,I do not understand what you are looking for,
you also have to understand that the book of revelation is part of the entire bible ,it represent the fulfillment of Gods will on earth,
Pierre
Kerwin,
If you are only a student in Scriptures then Revelation is hardly a book you should be discussing…Even seasoned philosophers cannot bearly understand it.
The symbolism needs to be understood.
The whole history of the Jewish nation needs to be understood.
The spiritual matters and structure of the forces of Powers in the heavenly places needs to be understood.What are 'the waters'?
Who IS the Woman?
Why is the Lamb already 'as if' slaughtered?
What was in the Scroll that no one could open?
why could they not open it?I think you need to do far more background work before attempting this book.
The temptation will be to read the book in chronological order and see many things with EARTHLY EYES… and that leads MANY PEOPLE ASTRAY!!
Quote (mikeboll64 @ June 29 2011,16:23)
Hi Rena,You are speaking of 21:6-8, right? I'm speaking of 22:14-15. Read that part and tell me what you think………..or did I misunderstand some of your post?
peace and love,
mike
Hi Mike.You said,
Quote I re-read Rev 21 and 22. It seems to me that the Kingdom of God will indeed be among mankind. But angels guard the gates, and it is not said that anyone of flesh will enter. It is said that those who “wash their robes” and have a right to the tree of life will be allowed to go through the gates into the city. To me this sounds like certain righteous people from the outside will have their lowly, flesh, mortal bodies transformed into immortal spiritual bodies if deemed worthy to enter through the gates and eat of the tree of life.
I read Rev chapter 21 and chapter 22.
I made notes when I read, as I understood it, but i'll put it in order:- The elect make up the Holy City Jerusalem, which is in heaven right now. The elect from Adam and Eve right through to today.
It is built with 12 gates, which are the 12 tribes of Isreal, and 12 foundations, which are the 12 Apostles.
This is now. We cant see it. It's in Heaven.
The dead go straight there, if thats where theyre going.
When it speaks of those outside the city, it means the sinners in the world today, and those who have died, who havent entered (the Heavenly Jerusalem).
Those on the outside – the unclean, are thrown into the lake of fire, which is the second death. Unless they repent.
It will come down when theres a new Heaven, and new Earth.
Quote To me this sounds like certain righteous people from the outside will have their lowly, flesh, mortal bodies transformed into immortal spiritual bodies if deemed worthy to enter through the gates and eat of the tree of life. I would say, not certain righteous people but all righteous people will enter.
My view.
Quote It will come down when theres a new Heaven, and new Earth. I dont get this though. Something doesnt feel right.
Rena: You are following your spirit/insight and hearing God/the truth. You are on target. The spirit of God is teaching you that spiritual understanding. Seeing with spirit vision. The picture created with living beings. This is the New Jerusalem/Jesus that came down out of heaven. This is the change from the old physical way to the spirit city created through Jesus from God.This new city with a new temple built without hands. The word of God creates this city. It is built with the words of God through Jesus. You must be born anew to see/understand this city. Only those born of water and spirit can enter this Kingdom. Behold all doctrines, eveything is become new.
In this new city of God there is no tears for there is perfect union between God and Man. Now sorrow all are accepted. No more pain, effort, works, deeds, trying, controlling or any kind of human effort for God has done the work and given the gift freely to those who will believe the truth.
The love and peace law written in the circumcised heart of a man. The human being becomes the Church, the Body, the house/abode of God/Jesus/holy spirit! The temple is the human body. The temple must be filled with life/spirit words of God/ the holy spirit/ the truth/ Jesus. Jesus is the light of this temple. Jesus is the corner stone, the capstone, the foundation stone, the wall of the city. Jesus is the New Jerusalem coming from God/Heaven. Jesus is the bridegroom, the holy spirit is the bride of Christ. The Bride, the Lambs wife/Jesus. Jesus is the door/way of the New Temple, the way to God. Jesus is the Hight Priest we are the Priest. Jesus is King of us kings of the Kingdom of God. God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit live/dwell within the temple.
God bless you, flesh and blood has not revealed these truthes to you. God in heaven/spirit has revealed them to you, we are babes in Christ. Willing to learn the spirit/truth at the expense of religious doctrines and hanging onto the old physical way of the flesh.
All righteous people will enter this Kingdom. The only way to be righteous is by believing God made you righteous. We cannot earn it in any way. We believe God to our own perfection! IMO, TK
Tim, I was thinking more, like…. spiritual kingdom, not like this.
'nor shall they say, Lo, here; or lo, there; for lo, the reign of God is within you.'
Like another dimension right close that we cant see.
Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2011,16:10) Please consider those two scriptures in the context of Isaiah 66 as that is a summary of the times upto and including those foretold in Revelations 21 and 22.
Kerwin.Isaiah 66, according to the commentaries – Christ, the gospel, to Israel, and Gentile, here and now.
Im Amillenial, so I understand the “millenium” as now, not future. So, I understand Isaiah meaning now, which is why it says 'flesh', maybe.
Hi Shimmer! If the dead know nothing which Scriptures say, then Rev. 21=22 has not been taken place yet. However you are right, it will happen one day. Before then Jesus will come again to smite the nations with the wrath of God.
Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Also there is a Scripture that says that there is no one in Heaven, and seen God, only He that came from Heaven
Jhn 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.
Then Jesus will give the Kingdom back to Almighty God.
1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
After all this has happened, then God Himself will come down with the New Jerusalem and will dwell with men. Only the Saints will be able to be in the New Jerusalem with God and Jesus….. The meek will inherit the earth.
Whether Christ is preparing His Saints right now, I don't know a Scripture for it, do you?
Peace Irene
Please, with no malice of intent, commentaries are opinions of other men or mens ideas, not necessarily God truth. To let go of mens ideas(religion) one must spend time reading the gospels only and request the Holy Spirit to teach you the truth of God. IMO, TK
Tim, no, I just read Isaiah 66 and that was my understanding on it, and I then looked briefly at the commentaries. But your right, best understanding is as you say, with the help of God.
Hi Irene! I hope your well.
I'll have to look into your verses later. It's late where I am.
Goodnight.
Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2011,11:10) kerwin Quote My understanding of Revelations is limited so please explain what you have come to explain and quote the scriptures it was revealed to you through. Thank you! Edited by kerwin on June 29 2011,22:15
————–
Your Fellow Student,Kerwin
I have explain to you ,and presented the scriptures that are relevant to what i have stated ,I do not understand what you are looking for,
you also have to understand that the book of revelation is part of the entire bible ,it represent the fulfillment of Gods will on earth,
Pierre
Pierre,The book of Revealation does serve it purpose but other issues are more prime. The book of Revelation is for adults who are well trained in righteousness. I do not claim to be such.
I read the scriptures you have posted and even followed your thread on resurection and still I do not understand why you conclude that both the first and second resurection has already happened.
I know I am still in my mortal body and so I cannot see even from that how could conclude that both resurrections have already occured.
I am obviously not understanding your reasoning so I hoped you would explain it to me so I could test the spirit of it.
Quote (Istari @ June 29 2011,13:56) Kerwin,
If you are only a student in Scriptures then Revelation is hardly a book you should be discussing…Even seasoned philosophers cannot bearly understand it.
The symbolism needs to be understood.
The whole history of the Jewish nation needs to be understood.
The spiritual matters and structure of the forces of Powers in the heavenly places needs to be understood.What are 'the waters'?
Who IS the Woman?
Why is the Lamb already 'as if' slaughtered?
What was in the Scroll that no one could open?
why could they not open it?I think you need to do far more background work before attempting this book.
The temptation will be to read the book in chronological order and see many things with EARTHLY EYES… and that leads MANY PEOPLE ASTRAY!!
I am not disagreeing with you on this one. Still others seem to believe it has bearing on the issue of whether scripture declares flesh cannot enter heaven. So to that point I am addressing it.Of course that means addressing the symbolism within it that also also exists in other prophecy. Thay symbolism is hard to understand and so can easilly be misinterpreted by those with evil intentions as well as by those who lack knowledge.
I feel fairly competent at being able to test the spirit of any understand in the context of the issure being addressed by this thread.
Thank you for your concern.
Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2011,22:03) Quote (terraricca @ June 29 2011,11:10) kerwin Quote My understanding of Revelations is limited so please explain what you have come to explain and quote the scriptures it was revealed to you through. Thank you! Edited by kerwin on June 29 2011,22:15
————–
Your Fellow Student,Kerwin
I have explain to you ,and presented the scriptures that are relevant to what i have stated ,I do not understand what you are looking for,
you also have to understand that the book of revelation is part of the entire bible ,it represent the fulfillment of Gods will on earth,
Pierre
Pierre,The book of Revealation does serve it purpose but other issues are more prime. The book of Revelation is for adults who are well trained in righteousness. I do not claim to be such.
I read the scriptures you have posted and even followed your thread on resurection and still I do not understand why you conclude that both the first and second resurection has already happened.
I know I am still in my mortal body and so I cannot see even from that how could conclude that both resurrections have already occured.
I am obviously not understanding your reasoning so I hoped you would explain it to me so I could test the spirit of it.
KerwinMy quote;
Quote I pointed out to you that in revelation 21 ,all men have been already resurrected either from the first or second resurrection and the judgement had already taking place,so the body we have received to live on earth is the same that we have now but perfect,without blame and sin , Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
what i was explaining is that wen we that are resurrected for the earth we will receive a flesh body just like the one we have now but perfect,and this body will be glorified because our soul will be all perfect in the will of God so that both the body and the soul are in harmony with Gods will,
and all this will be just after the judgement of the ones that are resurrected from the second resurrection,and then Rev 21;1 will come to be in effect,so I never said that the resurrection has already happen
Pierre
Quote (Rena @ June 29 2011,16:53) Quote (kerwin @ June 29 2011,16:10) Please consider those two scriptures in the context of Isaiah 66 as that is a summary of the times upto and including those foretold in Revelations 21 and 22.
Kerwin.Isaiah 66, according to the commentaries – Christ, the gospel, to Israel, and Gentile, here and now.
Im Amillenial, so I understand the “millenium” as now, not future. So, I understand Isaiah meaning now, which is why it says 'flesh', maybe.
I admit I have not read the commentaries on Isaiah 66 but I do like to compare scriptures to one another and Isaiah 66:22-24 is a summary of the same message foretold in Revelations 21-22.Gehenna was a trashpit outside of the city of Jerusalem and the worms burrowed through the rotten garbage that was also on fire. Thus you have a discription of Gehenna, i.e. the lake of fire, in Isaiah 66:23 of the flesh of the wicked burning eternally and being burrowed through buy immortal worms.
From that I do not see how one would get that Revelations 21-22 speak of the present.
Quote Isaiah 66 King James Version (KJV)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2011,10:21) Kerwin
My quote;
Quote I pointed out to you that in revelation 21 ,all men have been already resurrected either from the first or second resurrection and the judgement had already taking place,so the body we have received to live on earth is the same that we have now but perfect,without blame and sin , Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
what i was explaining is that wen we that are resurrected for the earth we will receive a flesh body just like the one we have now but perfect,and this body will be glorified because our soul will be all perfect in the will of God so that both the body and the soul are in harmony with Gods will,
and all this will be just after the judgement of the ones that are resurrected from the second resurrection,and then Rev 21;1 will come to be in effect,so I never said that the resurrection has already happen
Pierre
Then we suffered a communications proble which you have now cleared up. Thank you.Now if I understand you correctly then you are stating that there will be two resurections.
One of those that will inherit the new earth and thus will be resurrected in a flesh and blood body.
The other of those that will enter heaven and thus will be resurected as spiritual beings with spirit bodies.
Do I have that correct?
Note: Edited to delete unnecessary replies in this line of communications.
Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2011,22:32) Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2011,10:21) Kerwin
My quote;
Quote I pointed out to you that in revelation 21 ,all men have been already resurrected either from the first or second resurrection and the judgement had already taking place,so the body we have received to live on earth is the same that we have now but perfect,without blame and sin , Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away,
what i was explaining is that wen we that are resurrected for the earth we will receive a flesh body just like the one we have now but perfect,and this body will be glorified because our soul will be all perfect in the will of God so that both the body and the soul are in harmony with Gods will,
and all this will be just after the judgement of the ones that are resurrected from the second resurrection,and then Rev 21;1 will come to be in effect,so I never said that the resurrection has already happen
Pierre
Then we suffered a communications proble which you have now cleared up. Thank you.Now if I understand you correctly then you are stating that there will be two resurections.
One of those that will inherit the new earth and thus will be resurrected in a flesh and blood body.
The other of those that will enter heaven and thus will be resurected as spiritual beings with spirit bodies.
Do I have that correct?
Note: Edited to delete unnecessary replies in this line of communications.
kerwinthe first resurrection are those in Christ ,this mean that they all have chosen Christ in there present live (,the first and second pen of sheep) ,mean the 144k and the great crowd from revelation,all others will be resurrected in the second resurrection after the 1000years have ended ,
and when they have been judged then the new earth and new heaven will become a reality,Rev21;1
Quote Now if I understand you correctly then you are stating that there will be two resurections. One of those that will inherit the new earth and thus will be resurrected in a flesh and blood body.
The other of those that will enter heaven and thus will be resurected as spiritual beings with spirit bodies.
yes this is correct.
Pierre
Quote (kerwin @ June 30 2011,16:26) I admit I have not read the commentaries on Isaiah 66 but I do like to compare scriptures to one another and Isaiah 66:22-24 is a summary of the same message foretold in Revelations 21-22. Gehenna was a trashpit outside of the city of Jerusalem and the worms burrowed through the rotten garbage that was also on fire. Thus you have a discription of Gehenna, i.e. the lake of fire, in Isaiah 66:23 of the flesh of the wicked burning eternally and being burrowed through buy immortal worms.
From that I do not see how one would get that Revelations 21-22 speak of the present.
Quote Isaiah 66 King James Version (KJV)
22For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Kerwin,I still believe Isaiah 66 is talking about now, not eternity,.
Verses 18 – 23…. The gospel is sent out to all the world, to nations that have never heard, even to the coastlands far off. And some will go to Jerusalem, which happens today – from all nations. (but remember too – Jesus said, that in no particular place will God be worshipped, but – spirit and truth).
Verse 24…. could have different meanings.
Quote (terraricca @ June 30 2011,10:48) kerwin the first resurrection are those in Christ ,this mean that they all have chosen Christ in there present live (,the first and second pen of sheep) ,mean the 144k and the great crowd from revelation,all others will be resurrected in the second resurrection after the 1000years have ended ,
and when they have been judged then the new earth and new heaven will become a reality,Rev21;1
Quote Now if I understand you correctly then you are stating that there will be two resurections. One of those that will inherit the new earth and thus will be resurrected in a flesh and blood body.
The other of those that will enter heaven and thus will be resurected as spiritual beings with spirit bodies.
yes this is correct.
Pierre
The Thousand Years sounds like the Messianic Age and so you may be correct about that but I am not well enough informed to state an opinion one way or another on it.Your interpretation of the 144K seems to omit the significance of numbers which is also evident in some of the Parables. One again my knowledge is limited.
The same is true as far as my ignorance about the first and secound resurrection.
Which resurrection is Paul teaching us about in 1 Corinthians 15 as he seems to be teaching only one type of resurrection?
Also please let my know you understand it that way. Thank you!
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