Does god procreate?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:11)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. Kathi So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”? Hogwash. WJ

No Keith,
You did not include the rest of the sentence. Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end.

The 'without beginning and without end' is a very important part of the definition.

You say 'hogwash'…well, that is a strange argument you have going for you

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 24 2010,12:13)

Paul called he the heavenly Jerusalem,and mount Zion and i believe it is all part of creation after Christ. Pierre

Pierre

You must have a comprehension problem

Isn't that what I am saying in my post?

It's best not to but in unless you know what you are talking about.

Especially if you are going to say I am not being truthful.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:00)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. Kathi So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”? Hogwash. WJ No Keith, You did not include the rest of the sentence.  Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. The 'without beginning and without end' is a very important part of the definition. You say 'hogwash'…well, that is a strange argument you have going for you

Kathi

If it is without beginning and without end then it is timeless.

Therefore it would not be “a time period” but “eternal”.

If a “time period” has a beginning and an end, which it does then how can there be a “time period” without a beginning and an end”? It can't be both.

Why is that so hard for you to see?

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:18)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after. “He is the before what”? Time “He is the during what”? Time “He is the after what”? Time God is the only being that has “Timeless Existence”! Since Jesus was before “Time” since he was there in the beginning with the Father, then that means Jesus is God as the Father is! You can read about it in John 1:1-3. WJ

He is not before time. He exists therefore time exists.

Time and existence go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other.

Jesus is begotten
The Father is unbegotten.

The Father is like a self-existent lake that contains all that goes into the river when the dam opens. The river is the Son. The river comes from the lake and that which is in the river always existed within the lake. The river was begotten when the dam opened. So, in a sense the Son always existed in the lake but when the dam opened He became with the Father and not just in the Father.

Athanasius:

Quote

1. We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally; word not pronounced nor mental, nor an effluence of the Perfect, nor a dividing of the impassible Essence, nor an issue but absolutely perfect Son, living and powerful (Heb. iv. 12), the true Image of the Father, equal in honour and glory. For this, he says, ‘is the will of the Father, that as they honour the Father, so they may honour the Son also’ (Joh. v. 23): very God of very God, as John says in his general Epistles, ‘And we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ: this is the true God and everlasting life’ (1 Joh. v. 20): Almighty of Almighty. For all things which the Father rules and sways, the Son rules and sways likewise: wholly from the Whole, being like the Father as the Lord says, ‘he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father’ (Joh. xiv. 9). But He was begotten ineffably and incomprehensibly, for ‘who shall declare his generation?’ (Isa. liii. 8), in other words, no one can.

Quote

The Father, possessing His existence from Himself, begat the Son, as we said, and did not create Him, as a river from a well and as a branch from a root, and as brightness from a light, things which nature knows to be indivisible; through whom to the Father be glory and power and greatness before all ages, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen.

Quote

3. He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). But by calling Him First-born, He shews that He is not a Creature, but Offspring of the Father. For it would be inconsistent with His deity for Him to be called a creature. For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but the Son alone was eternally begotten from the Father, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html

Please note that Athanasius says that He is called 'First-born' because He is an Offspring of the Father.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,13:28)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. Kathi So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”? Hogwash. WJ No Keith, You did not include the rest of the sentence.  Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. The 'without beginning and without end' is a very important part of the definition. You say 'hogwash'…well, that is a strange argument you have going for you Kathi If it is without beginning and without end then it is timeless. Therefore it would not be “a time period” but “eternal”. If a “time period” has a beginning and an end, which it does then how can there be a “time period” without a beginning and an end”? It can't be both. Why is that so hard for you to see? WJ

e·ter·ni·ty (-tûrn-t)
n. pl. e·ter·ni·ties
1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time.
2. The state or quality of being eternal.
3.
a. The timeless state following death.
b. The afterlife; immortality.
4. A very long or seemingly endless time: waited in the dentist's office for an eternity.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity

If you don't like the word 'time period' just call it 'time' like in the first definition above. See past the words to get the message.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after. “He is the before what”? Time “He is the during what”? Time “He is the after what”? Time God is the only being that has “Timeless Existence”! Since Jesus was before “Time” since he was there in the beginning with the Father, then that means Jesus is God as the Father is! You can read about it in John 1:1-3. WJ He is not before time.  He exists therefore time exists. Time and existence go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Jesus is begotten The Father is unbegotten. The Father is like a self-existent lake that contains all that goes into the river when the dam opens.  The river is the Son.  The river comes from the lake and that which is in the river always existed within the lake.  The river was begotten when the dam opened.  So, in a sense the Son always existed in the lake but when the dam opened He became with the Father and not just in the Father. Athanasius: Quote 1. We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally; word not pronounced nor mental, nor an effluence of the Perfect, nor a dividing of the impassible Essence, nor an issue but absolutely perfect Son, living and powerful (Heb. iv. 12), the true Image of the Father, equal in honour and glory. For this, he says, ‘is the will of the Father, that as they honour the Father, so they may honour the Son also’ (Joh. v. 23): very God of very God, as John says in his general Epistles, ‘And we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ: this is the true God and everlasting life’ (1 Joh. v. 20): Almighty of Almighty. For all things which the Father rules and sways, the Son rules and sways likewise: wholly from the Whole, being like the Father as the Lord says, ‘he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father’ (Joh. xiv. 9). But He was begotten ineffably and incomprehensibly, for ‘who shall declare his generation?’ (Isa. liii. 8), in other words, no one can. Quote The Father, possessing His existence from Himself, begat the Son, as we said, and did not create Him, as a river from a well and as a branch from a root, and as brightness from a light, things which nature knows to be indivisible; through whom to the Father be glory and power and greatness before all ages, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen. Quote 3.He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). But by calling Him First-born, He shews that He is not a Creature, but Offspring of the Father. For it would be inconsistent with His deity for Him to be called a creature. For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but the Son alone was eternally begotten from the Father, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html Please note that Athanasius says that He is called 'First-born' because He is an Offspring of the Father.

Kathi

How does the two statements below agree with your definition of “firsborn” as having a beginning?

We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable.

He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15).

You are misrepresenting him because he believed in the “Eternal Begetting” of Jesus without beginning.

Sorry Kathi, Athanasius in not in your camp at all.

Here is his creed which clarifies that Jesus in One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit…

Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father
and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.

You say that God has shown you your beliefs through the years and then you begin to see that the Forefathers agreed with you, but do they?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,14:10)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,13:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. Kathi So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”? Hogwash. WJ No Keith, You did not include the rest of the sentence.  Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. The 'without beginning and without end' is a very important part of the definition. You say 'hogwash'…well, that is a strange argument you have going for you Kathi If it is without beginning and without end then it is timeless. Therefore it would not be “a time period” but “eternal”. If a “time period” has a beginning and an end, which it does then how can there be a “time period” without a beginning and an end”? It can't be both. Why is that so hard for you to see? WJ e·ter·ni·ty  (-tûrn-t) n. pl. e·ter·ni·ties 1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time. 2. The state or quality of being eternal. 3. a. The timeless state following death. b. The afterlife; immortality. 4. A very long or seemingly endless time: waited in the dentist's office for an eternity. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity If you don't like the word 'time period' just call it 'time' like in the first definition above.  See past the words to get the message.

Kathi

I got the message, but I don't think you do.

Time
a : the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues :

b : a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : leisure
2: the point or period when something occurs : occasion
3a : an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end    Source

Do you see anything in the above definition that “time” can be without beginning or end?

God exist outside of time therefore he has a timeless existence.

Jesus existed before the beginning of Time, not time without beginning.

Jesus like the Father had a “timeless existence” because he was there in the beginning.

BTW, Happy birthday!

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,14:42)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,14:10) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,13:28) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:00) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:11) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. Kathi So a “time period” is synonomous with “eternity”? Hogwash. WJ No Keith, You did not include the rest of the sentence.  Eternity is a time period without beginning and without end. The 'without beginning and without end' is a very important part of the definition. You say 'hogwash'…well, that is a strange argument you have going for you Kathi If it is without beginning and without end then it is timeless. Therefore it would not be “a time period” but “eternal”. If a “time period” has a beginning and an end, which it does then how can there be a “time period” without a beginning and an end”? It can't be both. Why is that so hard for you to see? WJ e·ter·ni·ty  (-tûrn-t) n. pl. e·ter·ni·ties 1. Time without beginning or end; infinite time. 2. The state or quality of being eternal. 3. a. The timeless state following death. b. The afterlife; immortality. 4. A very long or seemingly endless time: waited in the dentist's office for an eternity. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/eternity If you don't like the word 'time period' just call it 'time' like in the first definition above.  See past the words to get the message. Kathi I got the message, but I don't think you do. Time a : the measured or measurable period during which an action, process, or condition exists or continues : b : a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : leisure 2: the point or period when something occurs : occasion 3a : an appointed, fixed, or customary moment or hour for something to happen, begin, or end    Source Do you see anything in the above definition that “time” can be without beginning or end? God exist outside of time therefore he has a timeless existence. Jesus existed before the beginning of Time, not time without beginning. Jesus like the Father had a “timeless existence” because he was there in the beginning. BTW, Happy birthday!   WJ

b : a nonspatial continuum that is measured in terms of events which succeed one another from past through present to future c : leisure

That's the one right there!

Thanks for the b-day wishes

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,14:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after. “He is the before what”? Time “He is the during what”? Time “He is the after what”? Time God is the only being that has “Timeless Existence”! Since Jesus was before “Time” since he was there in the beginning with the Father, then that means Jesus is God as the Father is! You can read about it in John 1:1-3. WJ He is not before time.  He exists therefore time exists. Time and existence go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Jesus is begotten The Father is unbegotten. The Father is like a self-existent lake that contains all that goes into the river when the dam opens.  The river is the Son.  The river comes from the lake and that which is in the river always existed within the lake.  The river was begotten when the dam opened.  So, in a sense the Son always existed in the lake but when the dam opened He became with the Father and not just in the Father. Athanasius: Quote 1. We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally; word not pronounced nor mental, nor an effluence of the Perfect, nor a dividing of the impassible Essence, nor an issue but absolutely perfect Son, living and powerful (Heb. iv. 12), the true Image of the Father, equal in honour and glory. For this, he says, ‘is the will of the Father, that as they honour the Father, so they may honour the Son also’ (Joh. v. 23): very God of very God, as John says in his general Epistles, ‘And we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ: this is the true God and everlasting life’ (1 Joh. v. 20): Almighty of Almighty. For all things which the Father rules and sways, the Son rules and sways likewise: wholly from the Whole, being like the Father as the Lord says, ‘he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father’ (Joh. xiv. 9). But He was begotten ineffably and incomprehensibly, for ‘who shall declare his generation?’ (Isa. liii. 8), in other words, no one can. Quote The Father, possessing His existence from Himself, begat the Son, as we said, and did not create Him, as a river from a well and as a branch from a root, and as brightness from a light, things which nature knows to be indivisible; through whom to the Father be glory and power and greatness before all ages, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen. Quote 3.He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). But by calling Him First-born, He shews that He is not a Creature, but Offspring of the Father. For it would be inconsistent with His deity for Him to be called a creature. For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but the Son alone was eternally begotten from the Father, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html Please note that Athanasius says that He is called 'First-born' because He is an Offspring of the Father. Kathi How does the two statements below agree with your definition of “firsborn” as having a beginning? We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). You are misrepresenting him because he believed in the “Eternal Begetting” of Jesus without beginning. Sorry Kathi, Athanasius in not in your camp at all. Here is his creed which clarifies that Jesus in One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit… Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidde n by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. You say that God has shown you your beliefs through the years and then you begin to see that the Forefathers agreed with you, but do they? WJ

Keith,
That creed was named after Athanasius but he died before that was even written.

You make this kind of post but claim that the Son was not begotten before the ages. You have seen in the creeds that the Son was begotten before the ages and you deny this and yet you say that the majority of Christians agree with you. Why? The majority of Christian trinitarians agree with the creeds.

The term 'eternally begotten' is quite an elusive term, don't you think? It can't mean always in the state of being begotten…that makes no sense at all. I would like to find out more from those who use that term as to what specifically that means. It could just mean that during eternity past He was begotten and that lines up with 'begotten before the ages.' If it doesn't mean that once He was pre-begotten and then He was begotten, I don't buy it. I would be surprised that anyone would teach such a thing and still use the word 'begotten.'

I think the example of the lake and river is good to show that the river was within the lake at one point and then begotten to become a river from the lake (before the ages). That shows a sense of eternal existence yet also a beginning.

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,14:29)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after. “He is the before what”? Time “He is the during what”? Time “He is the after what”? Time God is the only being that has “Timeless Existence”! Since Jesus was before “Time” since he was there in the beginning with the Father, then that means Jesus is God as the Father is! You can read about it in John 1:1-3. WJ He is not before time.  He exists therefore time exists. Time and existence go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Jesus is begotten The Father is unbegotten. The Father is like a self-existent lake that contains all that goes into the river when the dam opens.  The river is the Son.  The river comes from the lake and that which is in the river always existed within the lake.  The river was begotten when the dam opened.  So, in a sense the Son always existed in the lake but when the dam opened He became with the Father and not just in the Father. Athanasius: Quote 1. We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally; word not pronounced nor mental, nor an effluence of the Perfect, nor a dividing of the impassible Essence, nor an issue but absolutely perfect Son, living and powerful (Heb. iv. 12), the true Image of the Father, equal in honour and glory. For this, he says, ‘is the will of the Father, that as they honour the Father, so they may honour the Son also’ (Joh. v. 23): very God of very God, as John says in his general Epistles, ‘And we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ: this is the true God and everlasting life’ (1 Joh. v. 20): Almighty of Almighty. For all things which the Father rules and sways, the Son rules and sways likewise: wholly from the Whole, being like the Father as the Lord says, ‘he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father’ (Joh. xiv. 9). But He was begotten ineffably and incomprehensibly, for ‘who shall declare his generation?’ (Isa. liii. 8), in other words, no one can. Quote The Father, possessing His existence from Himself, begat the Son, as we said, and did not create Him, as a river from a well and as a branch from a root, and as brightness from a light, things which nature knows to be indivisible; through whom to the Father be glory and power and greatness before all ages, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen. Quote 3.He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). But by calling Him First-born, He shews that He is not a Creature, but Offspring of the Father. For it would be inconsistent with His deity for Him to be called a creature. For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but the Son alone was eternally begotten from the Father, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html Please note that Athanasius says that He is called 'First-born' because He is an Offspring of the Father. Kathi How does the two statements below agree with your definition of “firsborn” as having a beginning? We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). You are misrepresenting him because he believed in the “Eternal Begetting” of Jesus without beginning. Sorry Kathi, Athanasius in not in your camp at all. Here is his creed which clarifies that Jesus in One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit… Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidde n by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. You say that God has shown you your beliefs through the years and then you begin to see that the Forefathers agreed with you, but do they? WJ

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34)

The term 'eternally begotten' is quite an elusive term, don't you think?  It can't mean always in the state of being begotten…that makes no sense at all.

Kathi

Why doesn't it? Athanasius said…

We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable.

The term begotten does not always mean “born as in a beginning” does it Kathi?

So the question is why you don't believe his words but choose to misrepresent him and others.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34)

The term 'eternally begotten' is quite an elusive term, don't you think?

Kathi

You mean like “God begetting a God” before the ages or time?

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34)

I would like to find out more from those who use that term as to what specifically that means. It could just mean that during eternity past He was begotten and that lines up with 'begotten before the ages.'  If it doesn't mean that once He was pre-begotten and then He was begotten, I don't buy it.  I would be surprised that anyone would teach such a thing and still use the word 'begotten.'

Kathi

Your whole problem is you think that “Begotten” in reference to Jesus is always understood to be “literally Born from God by having a beginning as in procreation”. The Forefathers never used the word “procreation” did they?

It has been shown you that the use of the term “begotten” is misleading.

If you are going to quote the Fathers then stop misrepresenting them like you are “Athanasius”.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34)

The majority of Christian trinitarians agree with the creeds.

Kathi

And so do I. I have already shown you that I can say that Jesus was begotten from eternity just like we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world.

WJ

[Worshipping Jesus]

Hi All

Athanasius opposed the Arius belief that Jesus had a beginning before coming in the flesh.

Opposition to Arianism

Further information: Arian controversy
In about 319, when Athanasius was a deacon, a presbyter named Arius came into a direct conflict with Alexander of Alexandria. It appears that Arius reproached Alexander for what he felt were misguided or heretical teachings being taught by the bishop.[11] Arius’ theological views appear to have been firmly rooted in Alexandrian Christianity, and his Christological views were certainly not radical at all.[12] He embraced a subordinationist Christology (that God did not have a beginning, but the Logos did), heavily influenced by Alexandrian thinkers like Origen,[13] which was a common Christological view in Alexandria at the time.[14] Support for Arius from powerful Bishops like Eusebius of Caesarea[15] and Eusebius of Nicomedia,[16] further illustrate how Arius' subordinationist Christology was shared by other Christians in the Empire. Arius was subsequently excommunicated by Alexander, and he would begin to elicit the support of many bishops who agreed with his position. Athanasius may have accompanied Alexander to the First Council of Nicaea in 325, the council which produced the Nicene Creed and anathematized Arius and his followers.  Source

WJ

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,15:55)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,14:29) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,13:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,11:18) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 23 2010,15:38) God exists, He says that He was, He is, and He is to come.  He is the before, the during and the after. “He is the before what”? Time “He is the during what”? Time “He is the after what”? Time God is the only being that has “Timeless Existence”! Since Jesus was before “Time” since he was there in the beginning with the Father, then that means Jesus is God as the Father is! You can read about it in John 1:1-3. WJ He is not before time.  He exists therefore time exists. Time and existence go hand in hand, you can't have one without the other. Jesus is begotten The Father is unbegotten. The Father is like a self-existent lake that contains all that goes into the river when the dam opens.  The river is the Son.  The river comes from the lake and that which is in the river always existed within the lake.  The river was begotten when the dam opened.  So, in a sense the Son always existed in the lake but when the dam opened He became with the Father and not just in the Father. Athanasius: Quote 1. We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father without beginning and eternally; word not pronounced nor mental, nor an effluence of the Perfect, nor a dividing of the impassible Essence, nor an issue but absolutely perfect Son, living and powerful (Heb. iv. 12), the true Image of the Father, equal in honour and glory. For this, he says, ‘is the will of the Father, that as they honour the Father, so they may honour the Son also’ (Joh. v. 23): very God of very God, as John says in his general Epistles, ‘And we are in Him that is true, even in His Son Jesus Christ: this is the true God and everlasting life’ (1 Joh. v. 20): Almighty of Almighty. For all things which the Father rules and sways, the Son rules and sways likewise: wholly from the Whole, being like the Father as the Lord says, ‘he that hath seen Me hath seen the Father’ (Joh. xiv. 9). But He was begotten ineffably and incomprehensibly, for ‘who shall declare his generation?’ (Isa. liii. 8), in other words, no one can. Quote The Father, possessing His existence from Himself, begat the Son, as we said, and did not create Him, as a river from a well and as a branch from a root, and as brightness from a light, things which nature knows to be indivisible; through whom to the Father be glory and power and greatness before all ages, and unto all the ages of the ages. Amen. Quote 3.He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). But by calling Him First-born, He shews that He is not a Creature, but Offspring of the Father. For it would be inconsistent with His deity for Him to be called a creature. For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but the Son alone was eternally begotten from the Father, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.x.ii.html Please note that Athanasius says that He is called 'First-born' because He is an Offspring of the Father. Kathi How does the two statements below agree with your definition of “firsborn” as having a beginning? We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. He is then by nature an Offspring, perfect from the Perfect, begotten before all the hills (Prov. viii. 25), that is before every rational and intelligent essence, as Paul also in another place calls Him ‘first-born of all creation’ (Col. i. 15). You are misrepresenting him because he believed in the “Eternal Begetting” of Jesus without beginning. Sorry Kathi, Athanasius in not in your camp at all. Here is his creed which clarifies that Jesus in One God with the Father and the Holy Spirit… Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies, and shall give an account of their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith; which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. You say that God has shown you your beliefs through the years and then you begin to see that the Forefathers agreed with you, but do they? WJ Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34) The term 'eternally begotten' is quite an elusive term, don't you think?  It can't mean always in the state of being begotten…that makes no sense at all. Kathi Why doesn't it? Athanasius said… We believe in one Unbegotten God, Father Almighty, maker of all things both visible and invisible, that hath His being from Himself. And in one Only-begotten Word, Wisdom, Son, begotten of the Father “WITHOUT BEGINNING AND ETERNALLY;… For all things were created by the Father through the Son, but “the Son alone was ETERNALLY BEGOTTEN FROM THE FATHER, whence God the Word is ‘first-born of all creation,’ unchangeable from unchangeable. The term begotten does not always mean “born as in a beginning” does it Kathi? So the question is why you don't believe his words but choose to misrepresent him and others. WJ

Keith,
Are you more comfortable if I said that begotten means He came FROM the Father as an offspring as opposed to being self-existent?

Do you like those words better?

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,16:27)

Hi All Athanasius opposed the Arius belief that Jesus had a beginning before coming in the flesh. Opposition to Arianism Further information: Arian controversy In about 319, when Athanasius was a deacon, a presbyter named Arius came into a direct conflict with Alexander of Alexandria. It appears that Arius reproached Alexander for what he felt were misguided or heretical teachings being taught by the bishop.[11] Arius’ theological views appear to have been firmly rooted in Alexandrian Christianity, and his Christological views were certainly not radical at all.[12] He embraced a subordinationist Christology (that God did not have a beginning, but the Logos did), heavily influenced by Alexandrian thinkers like Origen,[13] which was a common Christological view in Alexandria at the time.[14] Support for Arius from powerful Bishops like Eusebius of Caesarea[15] and Eusebius of Nicomedia,[16] further illustrate how Arius' subordinationist Christology was shared by other Christians in the Empire. Arius was subsequently excommunicated by Alexander, and he would begin to elicit the support of many bishops who agreed with his position. Athanasius may have accompanied Alexander to the First Council of Nicaea in 325, the council which produced the Nicene Creed and anathematized Arius and his followers.  Source WJ

Arius is about a beginning being made out of nothing. That is not what I am suggesting these church fathers are saying at all. I am saying that He was begotten from that which always existed within the Father.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,16:06)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34) The majority of Christian trinitarians agree with the creeds. Kathi And so do I. I have already shown you that I can say that Jesus was begotten from eternity just like we were chosen in him before the foundation of the world. WJ

Well Keith, if that is what you are saying that is totally not what the church fathers are saying, nor are the creeds saying that.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,16:03)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34) I would like to find out more from those who use that term as to what specifically that means. It could just mean that during eternity past He was begotten and that lines up with 'begotten before the ages.'  If it doesn't mean that once He was pre-begotten and then He was begotten, I don't buy it.  I would be surprised that anyone would teach such a thing and still use the word 'begotten.' Kathi Your whole problem is you think that “Begotten” in reference to Jesus is always understood to be “literally Born from God by having a beginning as in procreation”. The Forefathers never used the word “procreation” did they? It has been shown you that the use of the term “begotten” is misleading. If you are going to quote the Fathers then stop misrepresenting them like you are “Athanasius”. WJ

Keith,
I am not misrepresenting him, I am quoting them and giving the link. I am pointing out that there is more to them than what you seem to understand because they don't come across with their beliefs like you do. Why would I post something that you already agree with? My purpose is to show you that there is more to their view than what you think and that is the part I quote because I want you to see their other views that contradict yours.

Procreation is simply begetting an offspring and begetting an offspring is certainly in line with what many church fathers seem to understand.

[Lightenup]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 24 2010,15:57)

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,15:34) The term 'eternally begotten' is quite an elusive term, don't you think? Kathi You mean like “God begetting a God” before the ages or time? WJ

Keith,
How many quotes do I have to show you that say “God OF God” before you will get it?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 24 2010,16:57)

Keith, Are you more comfortable if I said that begotten means He came FROM the Father as an offspring as opposed to being self-existent? Do you like those words better?

Kathi

It doesn't matter how you word it. I you believe at any point Jesus had a beginning before he came in the flesh, then you are in the Arian camp.

Just think about it Kathi. You say that the Son is exactly like his Father in every way except age.

If that is true then Jesus would be an “infinite being” that had a beginnning.

And if Jesus is not infinite in power and Love and knowledge like the Father then he is not exactly like the Father for the Father is infinite, right?

How can infinite bring birth to infinite?

WJ

[Author]

Posts