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Keith,
You have been shown that the early church fathers have spoken of a begetting before the ages, even the creeds say that. In Col 1 the Son is said to be the firstborn of all creation and from the dead so there can be two types of 'births' here, one from the Father before creation and one from death…also there is a birth from Mary. The one where He was declared to be the Son of God that you speak of must be understood as the 'with power' added to it. Remember that the Son emptied Himself to become a baby, He didn't come as a man with power but came as a helpless child. After He completed His mission and was resurrected, that is when He was declared to be the Son of God with power, the power is what was the difference here and was given all authority which He didn't have beforehand.Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 09 2010,17:17) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 10 2010,06:58) Quote (mikeboll64 @ Sep. 08 2010,18:39) Quote (shimmer @ Sep. 08 2010,21:45) Also, “Does God procreate” ? Well, scripture doesnt say, does it ?
Hi Shimmer,Scripture says God begot a Son. That is the same as saying God procreated a Son.
mike
Does beget always mean procreate?I didn't think so!
WJ
That's what I was going to say,Hope your move went/goes well WJ, I moved last week, I hate moving house, new neighbours (I liked my old one's), new place (I liked the old again), settling in is never easy, oh well,
Thanks Shimmer! I hope you are enjoying your new place. We will be trying to finish this weekend.WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2010,12:27) Keith,
You have been shown that the early church fathers have spoken of a begetting before the ages, even the creeds say that. In Col 1 the Son is said to be the firstborn of all creation and from the dead so there can be two types of 'births' here, one from the Father before creation and one from death…also there is a birth from Mary. The one where He was declared to be the Son of God that you speak of must be understood as the 'with power' added to it. Remember that the Son emptied Himself to become a baby, He didn't come as a man with power but came as a helpless child. After He completed His mission and was resurrected, that is when He was declared to be the Son of God with power, the power is what was the difference here and was given all authority which He didn't have beforehand.
KathiCol 1 is your interpretation, but as the NET has shown “firstborn” does not always mean the first to be born as in the case of Isaac. If you say he is the firstborn of creation by procreation then that means he is a part of the creation. But the context clearly shows that he has the preeminence over the creation for it is by him and for him that all things were created and the fact Paul in the same breath calls him the “firstborn from the dead” which does not literally mean procreation from the dead but rather that he has the preeminence over those who are raised from the dead though he was not the “first” to rise from the dead.
And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; “that in all things he might have the preeminence. Col 1:18
Paul also said Jesus is the “firstborn” among many brethren. Rom 8:29
Pauls reference to Jesus as the firstborn here is speaking of him as a man for Jesus could not have been the “Firstborn” among many brethren unless he was a man, and we know that happened after the incarnation. Phil 2:6-8
And as far as Jesus being declared to be the Son of God with power, that fits right in with the Apostles speaking of his “begetting” after the resurrection in Acts 13:33, Heb 1:5 and Heb 5:5.
Psalms 2:6,7 clearly show that Jesus was “Begotten” on a day so therefore that could not have been before the ages or time.
As far as the Church Fathers, as it has been shown you there is disagreement among them and most believed the Son did not have a beginning and the Athanasian Creed was the final nail to close the coffin to the Arians that believed Jesus was not always with the Father.
WJ
Keith,
One thing at a time…
You seem to think that 'firstborn of all creation' must mean that the Son is a part of creation and a created being if the term 'firstborn' is meant as if He was first in a sequence. I disagree with that assumption. It could mean that He was the first to be begotten of God to be the foundation for all creation to be created through. Many church fathers seem to agree with this.
The rest of creation was not said to be 'begotten.' Creation was of a different kind than God, the Son was the same kind and the ONLY one of the same kind…the only begotten, not one of many begotten of God in His original begetting. Like begets like…like doesn't beget unlike, or something inferior.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2010,13:57) Keith, One thing at a time…
You seem to think that 'firstborn of all creation' must mean that the Son is a part of creation and a created being if the term 'firstborn' is meant as if He was first in a sequence. I disagree with that assumption. It could mean that He was the first to be begotten of God to be the foundation for all creation to be created through. Many church fathers seem to agree with this.
The rest of creation was not said to be 'begotten.' Creation was of a different kind than God, the Son was the same kind and the ONLY one of the same kind…the only begotten, not one of many begotten of God in His original begetting. Like begets like…like doesn't beget unlike, or something inferior.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2010,13:57) Like begets like…like doesn't beget unlike, or something inferior.
KathiYet you believe that Jesus is inferior. This is where your logic falls apart.
If God who is infinite begets another thats not inferior, then that one who God begets would also be infinite.
If God who is infinite can multiply himself then that would mean that the more he multipies himself then the greater he becomes.
Is the Father greater because he now has reproduced himself in a Son who is of his kind?
If so then how can the Father be infinite and how can Jesus be equal.
If Jesus is equal and like begets like as you say then why can't Jesus procreate like the Father and bring birth to other gods?
So then he is not like his Father then right?
Again, the Arian controversy has been settled by the Fathers through the “Athanasian Creed”.
WJ
Keith,
I do not believe the Son is inferior to the Father by nature.The Son in a sense does birth sons by the incorruptible seed which is 'the word of God' and that is a re-birth and one that will partake of a divine nature but a re-birth is different than an original birth. Whether or not the Son can produce a direct offspring with an identical nature we are not told that He can't. We do not see that He has, however.
The Father cannot get greater than He already is.
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2010,14:33) Keith,
I do not believe the Son is inferior to the Father by nature.The Son in a sense does birth sons by the incorruptible seed which is 'the word of God' and that is a re-birth and one that will partake of a divine nature but a re-birth is different than an original birth. Whether or not the Son can produce a direct offspring with an identical nature we are not told that He can't. We do not see that He has, however.
The Father cannot get greater than He already is.
KathiIs Jesus “infinite” like the Father?
WJ
Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 10 2010,14:33) The Father cannot get greater than He already is.
KathiThen the Father didn't and cannot reproduce himself!
WJ
Keith,
I didn't say that He reproduced 'Himself,' that would be impossible. He reproduced another of His nature. There aren't two Fathers, just one Father and one Son.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,13:33) Keith,
I do not believe the Son is inferior to the Father by nature.The Son in a sense does birth sons by the incorruptible seed which is 'the word of God' and that is a re-birth and one that will partake of a divine nature but a re-birth is different than an original birth. Whether or not the Son can produce a direct offspring with an identical nature we are not told that He can't. We do not see that He has, however.
The Father cannot get greater than He already is.
Kathiis this not against Christ own statement,that is father is greather than he is.
Pierre
Pierre,
The Father is greater in a sense, for one, the Father was the cause of the Son's begettal, but He is not greater in nature.Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,17:18) Pierre,
The Father is greater in a sense, for one, the Father was the cause of the Son's begettal, but He is not greater in nature.
Kathiwhat is god nature ?
Pierre
Pierre,
Who knows exactly. We are told that the Son is the exact representation of the nature of God. So, whatever the Son is in nature, the Father is in nature also.Some verses that mention the nature:
Ga 4:8 –
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high2Pe 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.Ro 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Ac 17:29
“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 11 2010,07:18) LU, Was Mankind not also made in the nature of God?
orginallly but that was corrupted long ago
and it was only a likenessQuote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,19:10) Pierre,
Who knows exactly. We are told that the Son is the exact representation of the nature of God. So, whatever the Son is in nature, the Father is in nature also.Some verses that mention the nature:
Ga 4:8 –
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high2Pe 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.Ro 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Ac 17:29
“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Kathiit really does not matter the nature of God for now;
lets think God is alone God ,now whatever that time may be,
God decided in his will to start to create (plan)so he setup the means to create ,because whatever he will create will be smaller ,weaker,ect; so he made the starting point and that is the WORD (Christ)this is a weaker element,same qualities because it is obvious the rules and will of God will never change,next creation angels,weaker but same qualities,then man ,weaker but same qualities,all free to do what God as plan for all or not;now to prove that Christ was and is what he says he is ,will be recognize by the qualities he shows either from God or from men.and he showed it was from God his father.
if anyone does what God wants him to do he will be like Christ as per God qualities or nature.Pierre
Quote (JustAskin @ Sep. 10 2010,21:18) LU, Was Mankind not also made in the nature of God?
JA,
No, man was made with human nature. We were however made in the image of God.Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2010,22:00) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,19:10) Pierre,
Who knows exactly. We are told that the Son is the exact representation of the nature of God. So, whatever the Son is in nature, the Father is in nature also.Some verses that mention the nature:
Ga 4:8 –
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high2Pe 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.Ro 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Ac 17:29
“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Kathiit really does not matter the nature of God for now;
lets think God is alone God ,now whatever that time may be,
God decided in his will to start to create (plan)so he setup the means to create ,because whatever he will create will be smaller ,weaker,ect; so he made the starting point and that is the WORD (Christ)this is a weaker element,same qualities because it is obvious the rules and will of God will never change,next creation angels,weaker but same qualities,then man ,weaker but same qualities,all free to do what God as plan for all or not;now to prove that Christ was and is what he says he is ,will be recognize by the qualities he shows either from God or from men.and he showed it was from God his father.
if anyone does what God wants him to do he will be like Christ as per God qualities or nature.Pierre
Hi Pierre,
God was and is and always will be self-sufficient. He always had within Him the ability to do anything He willed. When He willed to create, He begat His helper, the Word, His Son who had all the things that the Father had. If He had all things that the Father had, how could He be weaker?Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,22:21) Quote (terraricca @ Sep. 10 2010,22:00) Quote (Lightenup @ Sep. 11 2010,19:10) Pierre,
Who knows exactly. We are told that the Son is the exact representation of the nature of God. So, whatever the Son is in nature, the Father is in nature also.Some verses that mention the nature:
Ga 4:8 –
However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods.Heb 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high2Pe 1:4
For by these He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world by lust.Ro 1:20
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.Ac 17:29
“Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man.
Kathiit really does not matter the nature of God for now;
lets think God is alone God ,now whatever that time may be,
God decided in his will to start to create (plan)so he setup the means to create ,because whatever he will create will be smaller ,weaker,ect; so he made the starting point and that is the WORD (Christ)this is a weaker element,same qualities because it is obvious the rules and will of God will never change,next creation angels,weaker but same qualities,then man ,weaker but same qualities,all free to do what God as plan for all or not;now to prove that Christ was and is what he says he is ,will be recognize by the qualities he shows either from God or from men.and he showed it was from God his father.
if anyone does what God wants him to do he will be like Christ as per God qualities or nature.Pierre
Hi Pierre,
God was and is and always will be self-sufficient. He always had within Him the ability to do anything He willed. When He willed to create, He begat His helper, the Word, His Son who had all the things that the Father had. If He had all things that the Father had, how could He be weaker?
kathi#1 Christ himself tells us his father is greater than him;
#2 men can not see God and Live ,scriptures say only the son as seen the father.so if Christ would be equal in qualities or nature ,I mean the powers of that nature or qualities.
#3 Christ said only his father is good ,this shows by it selves that there is a difference.
#4 Christ serves his father ,God does not serve his son.
#5Ps 8:4 what is man that you are mindful of him,
the son of man that you care for him?
Ps 80:17 Let your hand rest on the man at your right hand,
the son of man you have raised up for yourself.
Ps 144:3 O LORD, what is man that you care for him,
the son of man that you think of him?#6 there is absolutely no evidence that it is not so.
Pierre
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