Doctrine: From God or from Man?

[Samuel]

I was just wanting to make a thread to make a statement that I'm sure has already been made before…but might have been forgotten.

Doctrines=Man Made (IMO)

The Word (Your Bible)=The truth (From God)

You see the biggest problem I have with all these Doctrines from all these denominations and religions is this:

Most of these believers of this nonsense, are usually really aggressive and want to shove their belief down your throat and proceed to declare that you are gonna “Split hell wide open” if you don't believe exactly the way they do. Let me tell you something brothers and sisters…that kind of behavior is not of God by no means.

First, of all if God wanted something “Shoved” down someones throat he could most likely have done that back in the Garden of Eden, In which case we would probably not even be having this conversation.

Someone that has a meekness and kindness and a servants heart. Is probably going to get a whole lot further in getting their point across.

The bible says:
2 Thess 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

What this means to me is, if some man comes up to me trying to shove a doctrine down my throat…which usually means they've said “Your going to hell if you don't believe what I'm telling you” when you question it. That usually tells me that I need to steer clear of that ravaging wolf thats trying to kill the flock.
And, maybe pull out my double-edged sword and sharpen it up a bit, for I might be gettin ready to use it.
Theres a good passage I'd suggest you all read if you have not already ….and you might want to do like I do a lot and read it again.
Ephesians 6

You can rest assured that God is probably never going to force himself on you…He may deal with you and bring his word to you.

But its going to be up to you weather or not you want to adhere to it or not.
Now I'm not saying that everyone is wrong, but I'm not saying that anyone is right either. You should question everything according to what 2 Thess 2:3 says.

[Proclaimer]

I think most doctrines are of man, but there is true doctrine. The doctrine of Christ for example.

Hebrews 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

1 Timothy 4:16
Watch your life and doctrine closely. Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your hearers.

Titus 1:9
He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.

[Samuel]

Yes, I do have to believe there is at least one TRUE doctrine.

Which brings up a very good question. From whom might we expect to hear of this TRUE doctrine? I believe that most likely the Holy Spirit will show you a great many things once you decide to give your life to Jesus Christ, and live for his name sake.

Really all I'm saying is that everyone should search the scriptures with a clear mind of any one doctrine. In essence…if your a Chevy fan, and you go shopping for a Ford…your probably not going to like anything you see.

Although, T8 I must admit that I really like to hear you present an Idea. Your a pretty good speaker. Would you mind presenting to me or pointing me in the direction where you might have already presented this Doctrine of Christ?

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 06 2007,17:13)

I was just wanting to make a thread to make a statement that I'm sure has already been made before…but might have been forgotten. Doctrines=Man Made (IMO) The Word (Your Bible)=The truth (From God) You see the biggest problem I have with all these Doctrines from all these denominations and religions is this: Most of these believers of this nonsense, are usually really aggressive and want to shove their belief down your throat and proceed to declare that you are gonna “Split hell wide open” if you don't believe exactly the way they do.   Let me tell you something brothers and sisters…that kind of behavior is not of God by no means. First, of all if God wanted something “Shoved” down someones throat he could most likely have done that back in the Garden of Eden, In which case we would probably not even be having this conversation. Someone that has a meekness and kindness and a servants heart.  Is probably going to get a whole lot further in getting their point across.   The bible says: 2 Thess 2:3     Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition What this means to me is, if some man comes up to me trying to shove a doctrine down my throat…which usually means they've said “Your going to hell if you don't believe what I'm telling you”  when you question it.  That usually tells me that I need to steer clear of that ravaging wolf thats trying to kill the flock. And, maybe pull out my double-edged sword and sharpen it up a bit, for I might be gettin ready to use it. Theres a good passage I'd suggest you all read if you have not already ….and you might want to do like I do a lot and read it again. Ephesians 6 You can rest assured that God is probably never going to force himself on you…He may deal with you and bring his word to you. But its going to be up to you weather or not you want to adhere to it or not. Now I'm not saying that everyone is wrong, but I'm not saying that anyone is right either.  You should question everything according to what 2 Thess 2:3 says.

Samuel

You are correct. What you will find here is a lot of judgmental, condescending, patronizing and accusing of the brethren going on. (All in the name of love, of course)

Name calling like “You are of the whore” or Your mother is the Harlot, or you are stuborn and unwilling to believe the truth. (Of course it is their truth they are refering to)

Also you will find men condemning others saying they are speaking lies and are decieved or they are like pigs and and are stubborn just because they dont believe as they do.

They are calling believers ministers of Satan and man made traditions and doctrines, while they themselves have not all truth.

Elitism is a big one also. It comes in this disguise…

I once believed that way too, “But Now” infering that they are more spiritual or closer to God. Also men forsaking the “Assembling of themselve together”.

And finally you will find those who are trying to force the keeping of laws and feasts etc by saying if you dont then you are “The children of disobedience” and are taking the mark of the beast”. (All said in the name of love, of course)

But then you will find there are those here who truly are defenders of the faith as well as seekers of the truth who see all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as his sheep and seek to show them scripture in love that will lead them to a closer relationship to God without condemning them if they dont agree!

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 07 2007,02:06)

Yes, I do have to believe there is at least one TRUE doctrine. Which brings up a very good question. From whom might we expect to hear of this TRUE doctrine? I believe that most likely the Holy Spirit will show you a great many things once you decide to give your life to Jesus Christ, and live for his name sake. Really all I'm saying is that everyone should search the scriptures with a clear mind of any one doctrine. In essence…if your a Chevy fan, and you go shopping for a Ford…your probably not going to like anything you see. Although, T8 I must admit that I really like to hear you present an Idea. Your a pretty good speaker. Would you mind presenting to me or pointing me in the direction where you might have already presented this Doctrine of Christ?

Hi Samuel.

The doctrine of Christ is something that I am looking at now.
The doctrine of Christ is the elementary teachings of Christ.

These teachings include:

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2007,01:41)

Elitism is a big one also. It comes in this disguise… I once believed that way too, “But Now” infering that they are more spiritual or closer to God. Also men forsaking the “Assembling of themselve together”.

Since the others you said do not apply to me, I at least caught this one. Do you realize by making these statements, you too are saying that what others say is wrong but what you are saying is right? I agree that we can all discuss things with using “harlot”, “whore” and many others, but not all is what you believe it is.

There was no inference in my statement. I do not think I am any more righteous or spiritual than anyone else. I will join Paul in saying I am chief among sinners. I was merely saying that I believed some things before I really started investigating them myself. Why? Because I was just going along with everyone else and listening to the teaching of others without being Berean.

How do you know I forsake the assembling of myself to other Christians? Is that verse only about worshiping in a local church? What of the “where two or three are gathered in my name”? I get together with other Christians various times through the week and discuss spiritual matters, but it is not church in the “four walls on Sunday” type. And I have a time of worship with my kids in my home. I am trying to do that on Saturdays.

The reason I do not go to any church is that there is not a single one close to me that does not believe in the Trinity. I respect their right to believe as they do so I will not come amongst them knowing we disagree in this very major point. To do so would be to sow discord.

Quote

But then you will find there are those here who truly are defenders of the faith as well as seekers of the truth who see all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as his sheep and seek to show them scripture in love that will lead them to a closer relationship to God without condemning them if they dont agree!

Yep, but I bet you number yourself on that short list dontcha? If you do, then you too are practicing a form of elitism.

“There is none who do good, not even one”.

LG&LP,
Kevin

[kenrch]

You know why I use whore, harlot, Daughters of the harlot, the Mother of Harlots.

It's a wake up call folks!

All are “scriptural”. If you keep the RCC's doctrines then you are IN HER.

What is Rev 18:4 saying?

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Well gee do you have to be so “harsh”?

YES! It gets your attention.. doesn't it. All this sugar coated poison that people spread REALLY sometimes turns my stomach.

But now that we have a main speaker on the Sabbath. I will decrease while he increases

Before the seed is planted the soil has to be prepared. It has to be “turned over”. Do you think that the soil likes to be turned over?

Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account”.

So I say at the TOP of my lungs “Come out of HER” Jesus' people.

God bless all,

Ken

[Samuel]

Well it's the other way around here with me. I'm forced to attend a Oneness church…or “Jesus' Name” church. Thats all that is around here where I live.

Now I like to go to church, I think that there are some soul feeding messages to be had in a church house. However, there is a lot of hypocrisy, gossip, and bigotry as well. Along, with false doctrines, and such other practices.

But, you know that its hard to find a church thats going to let you dance in the spirit and speak in tongues as the spirit gives utterance…in order to not quench the spirit, which the bible tells you not to quench the spirit as well.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 (KJV)

19 Quench not the Spirit.

When I praise God I want to praise God, and this church is serious about praising God as well. And they pray a lot. I've never seen a church pray as much…anytime of day you can go to that church and someone is going to be in there praying.
If they knew I didn't believe their doctrine though…I'd probably be eaten alive. So I just keep my mouth shut about it…I got baptized in Jesus Name…so as far as they all know I believe their doctrine. But, I do like the church so I'm just going to keep my mouth shut about what I believe. After all you can't convince a Baptist that he is back slid either…lol I mean You can't have a conversation with someone about religion if they firmly believe a certain way. Whats super funny to me…is people think they understand God and have him down pad. Boy, are they badly mistaken.

[Samuel]

Whats even more funny is…

Every religion/denomination thinks they are the only ones that are going to be in heaven.

[michaels]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 08 2007,23:13)

Whats even more funny is… Every religion/denomination thinks they are the only ones that are going to be in heaven.

how is this funny ,?this is a sadness that even breaks Gods heart! a divided kingdom will not stand, why is it funny to see men so divided ? ha ha ha

[Not3in1]

Hi Sam – welcome!

My Uncle was a “Oneness” believer. He and my Mom (who was a Trinitarian) used to go around and around over doctrine. It used to make my head spin! My Mom would point her finger and him, and he would shake his head at her. They would go on like this until the wee hours of the morning. When I woke up, sometimes they would still be at it. He didn't come to visit very often.

How I see it, is that both the Oneness and Trinitarian teachings take away from the single person who is God; that is, the Father. In the Oneness view, the Father is Jesus. In the Trinitarian view, the Father is only one of the three persons that makes up God. Both, in my opinion, are incorrect.

At any rate, as WJ said, you will find finger's pointing in all directions here on this website, but I hope you stick around. It is a wonderful place to learn what other's believe, and to test what you think you know Besides, it sounds like you could use some fellowship. You don't have to pretend to buy the whole “Oneness” doctrine here……..you can be yourself here and investigate it all. God bless you as you do.
Love,
Mandy

[Samuel]

It's not funny that men are divided, its funny because of the attitudes they develop over the whole deal

[Worshipping Jesus]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,21:37)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2007,01:41) Elitism is a big one also. It comes in this disguise… I once believed that way too, “But Now” infering that they are more spiritual or closer to God. Also men forsaking the “Assembling of themselve together”. Since the others you said do not apply to me, I at least caught this one. Do you realize by making these statements, you too are saying that what others say is wrong but what you are saying is right? I agree that we can all discuss things with using “harlot”, “whore” and many others, but not all is what you believe it is. There was no inference in my statement. I do not think I am any more righteous or spiritual than anyone else. I will join Paul in saying I am chief among sinners. I was merely saying that I believed some things before I really started investigating them myself. Why? Because I was just going along with everyone else and listening to the teaching of others without being Berean. How do you know I forsake the assembling of myself to other Christians? Is that verse only about worshiping in a local church? What of the “where two or three are gathered in my name”? I get together with other Christians various times through the week and discuss spiritual matters, but it is not church in the “four walls on Sunday” type. And I have a time of worship with my kids in my home. I am trying to do that on Saturdays. The reason I do not go to any church is that there is not a single one close to me that does not believe in the Trinity. I respect their right to believe as they do so I will not come amongst them knowing we disagree in this very major point. To do so would be to sow discord. Quote But then you will find there are those here who truly are defenders of the faith as well as seekers of the truth who see all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as his sheep and seek to show them scripture in love that will lead them to a closer relationship to God without condemning them if they dont agree! Yep, but I bet you number yourself on that short list dontcha? If you do, then you too are practicing a form of elitism. “There is none who do good, not even one”. LG&LP, Kevin

kejonn

Do you think my post was about you?

Not at all.

I have been on this sight for over a year now. You are not the only one that has made any of these statements. I am sure at some time I have too.

My point though is justified because whether you realize it or not I am attacked on my faith far more than most here simply because I am Trinitarian.

Yea I know “Boo Hoo”. But I think my statement is true.

The Unitarians and the Henotheist mostly give each other a pass.

I dont resort to name calling, and I dont condemn or condescend or patronize. If I do believe me I would get blasted.

I suppose I have become somewhat tired of this kind of dialogue from believers in our Lord.

These things should not be so.

Believe me I dont think I am perfect for a minute.  

As far as “Elete” I suppose you are right that my faith here is “Elete” since there are only a couple of Trinitarians here.

[kejonn]

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 08 2007,19:22)

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 07 2007,21:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 07 2007,01:41) Elitism is a big one also. It comes in this disguise… I once believed that way too, “But Now” infering that they are more spiritual or closer to God. Also men forsaking the “Assembling of themselve together”. Since the others you said do not apply to me, I at least caught this one. Do you realize by making these statements, you too are saying that what others say is wrong but what you are saying is right? I agree that we can all discuss things with using “harlot”, “whore” and many others, but not all is what you believe it is. There was no inference in my statement. I do not think I am any more righteous or spiritual than anyone else. I will join Paul in saying I am chief among sinners. I was merely saying that I believed some things before I really started investigating them myself. Why? Because I was just going along with everyone else and listening to the teaching of others without being Berean. How do you know I forsake the assembling of myself to other Christians? Is that verse only about worshiping in a local church? What of the “where two or three are gathered in my name”? I get together with other Christians various times through the week and discuss spiritual matters, but it is not church in the “four walls on Sunday” type. And I have a time of worship with my kids in my home. I am trying to do that on Saturdays. The reason I do not go to any church is that there is not a single one close to me that does not believe in the Trinity. I respect their right to believe as they do so I will not come amongst them knowing we disagree in this very major point. To do so would be to sow discord. Quote But then you will find there are those here who truly are defenders of the faith as well as seekers of the truth who see all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ as his sheep and seek to show them scripture in love that will lead them to a closer relationship to God without condemning them if they dont agree! Yep, but I bet you number yourself on that short list dontcha? If you do, then you too are practicing a form of elitism. “There is none who do good, not even one”. LG&LP, Kevin kejonn Do you think my post was about you? Not at all. I have been on this sight for over a year now. You are not the only one that has made any of these statements. I am sure at some time I have too. My point though is justified because whether you realize it or not I am attacked on my faith far more than most here simply because I am Trinitarian. Yea I know “Boo Hoo”. But I think my statement is true. The Unitarians and the Henotheist mostly give each other a pass. I dont resort to name calling, and I dont condemn or condescend or patronize. If I do believe me I would get blasted. I suppose I have become somewhat tired of this kind of dialogue from believers in our Lord. These things should not be so. Believe me I dont think I am perfect for a minute. As far as “Elete” I suppose you are right that my faith here is “Elete” since there are only a couple of Trinitarians here.

WJ,

The reason I believed that part was about me was that I said that! I said “I used to believe that too until”. You know I did .

Never mind though. You and I have different beliefs on more than one thing it seems, but I will never say you are less spiritual than me! If I do, feel free to rebuke me! But as my brother, I WILL point out if you are heading in an unscriptural direction.

Sorry if I took your post the wrong way. I truly believe you have a heart after God, regardless of what others say. I just ask that you (and I) keep that heart — and our minds — open to new revelations that line up with His Word.

LG&LP,
Kevin

[942767]

Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 09 2007,10:11)

It's not funny that men are divided, its funny because of the attitudes they develop over the whole deal

Hi Samuel:

I agree with you.  Of course if we believe something to be correct, then we should teach what we believe to be correct, but always leaving room for the possibility that we could be in error.  God has taught me that I should approach someone with whom I have a different understanding on scripture saying, “my understanding is different than what you are teaching.  I am not saying that I am right and that you are wrong, but only that my understanding is different.  Let me give you my understanding and you can explain to me why you teach this as you do, and then if we can't agree let's go to God in prayer asking God for understanding so that either you or I might be corrected so that we can walk in unity”. (I haven't always done this but neither have I convicted someone to be in sin because of their doctrine) Above all else, we should be seeking unity in the truth of God's Word.  This is what Jesus prayed:

Quote

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified F35 through the truth. 20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

The following that you stated caught my attention.  Can you elaborate on what you believe relative to the following statement.

Quote

But, you know that its hard to find a church thats going to let you dance in the spirit and speak in tongues as the spirit gives utterance…in order to not quench the spirit, which the bible tells you not to quench the spirit as well.

God Bless

[Samuel]

Well…I know some beliefs don't believe in “Dancing in the Spirit” But there are several instances in the bible where people actually do this.

2 Samuel 6:14
4 And David danced before the LORD with all [his] might; and David [was] girded with a linen ephod.

Psalms 149:3
Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp. {in…: or, with the pipe}

Psalms 150:4
Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. {dance: or, pipe}

Some people believe that you don't have to speak in tongues to receive the Holy Ghost. However I did when I got baptized with it and, usually do when it falls on me when I'm praying.

[kejonn]

Sam,

There are some Messianic churches where dancing takes place. I think it is quite prevalent with Jews as well. Just don't do it in a Baptist Church .

[kenrch]

Quote (kejonn @ Oct. 10 2007,00:18)

Sam, There are some Messianic churches where dancing takes place. I think it is quite prevalent with Jews as well. Just don't do it in a Baptist Church  .

[Samuel]

Yeah I usually go to a Pentecostal church of some sort.

There are two breeds of Pentecostal:
Oneness
and
Trinity or Triune

One thinks the others going to hell and the other just don't agree with what the other one believes.

lol

I think there are going to be some people from all different types of religion and belief of doctrine make it to heaven myself.
I mean there is going to have to be…cause there are some people that really live for God and love him in these other religions.

[kejonn]

samuel,

Don't feel bad. I once went to a Baptist church where many people felt that people who attended any other church, Baptist or otherwise, were going to hell. I remember coming back from visitation once and telling of a good visit with a young couple. I was assured of their salvation (the best you can be in a short visit) but when I reported that one person said with a very straint and serious face “But they go to XYZ Baptist”. I could only feel sorry for their spiritual bigotry. I soon left that church because these people were so hung up on their own doctrine and the pastor that they would have had to run to him if Jesus came back and ask “Is that Jesus?”.

[Author]

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