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Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,01:55) Wow acertainchap! Instant prophecy list. These are self-fulfilling zionist prophecies: the Zionist movement has worked hard to relocate Jews in the Middle East. There is no evidence that a supernatural being has had anything to do with it. If the return of the diaspora had happened before the discovery of the texts that might have been remarkable. Some aspects of zionism are very strongly focussed on reclaiming Israel for Jews BECAUSE it is “prophecised”.
These are not much more specific that the horoscope. There are no years, decades or even centuries indicated, and when it comes to “second fulfillment”, say of Hosea, there is no mention that it will happen more than once – this makes the prophecy even vaguer.
Give me the “god will smite the Sodomites on August 28th” prophecies and I'll be impressed!
Stuart
I got it off http://www.100prophecies.org .
Anyways you can't deny the fulfillment of these prophecies.
Hey it's God's Word.You still haven't explained your theory on how men from the distant past could have prophesied with 100% accuracy. The only explanation is divine intervention.
Hi Kenrch
++”I mean what scripture says is that they will be those who destroy the earth. How do you explain this first century man knowing this! Is this NOT happening today?”
Sadly for you, it is not happening. Still the US is full of fundies obsessed with making end-time prophecies come true. Would you press the button to bring on judgement day?
++”According to you he must have been a very smart “monkey”.”
NO NO NO. A smart APE. Get it right. We are apes, not monkeys.
++”It was revealed to him by GOD! If not then how did he know this?”
He didn't say when. You can make any prophecy you like, and it will eventually come true if it is characteristic of the politics of humans. “There will be a great war in the holy land” is almost certain to come true eventually. Again, the only prophecies worth any real note are those sealed in a bank vault (or cave), completely unknown by those about whom the prophecy has been made. The bible is well-known and very self-fulfilling.
Stuart
hi acertainchap, as Kenrch has gone off to waterproof his ark, perhaps you will consider my response to him which covers your question as well.
Stuart
Kenrch you wrote:
++”One thing is I admire the faith of evolutionist. They have so much faith that a watch can make itself and keep good time!”
You only need faith if you have no evidence. Evolution is not a faith-based initiative.
Watches have designers. Living things do not.Stuart
Stu, I was an atheist for most of my young life, so I know exactly where you are coming from. I too argued with Christians and even talked one Christian/Catholic out of his faith.
The truth was, I knew more about how and nothing about who.
The thing is that not all people are privy to truth. If you seek you will find. But if you do not seek, you most likely aren't going to discover the true meaning of anything, just formulas and processes. I could tell you things that God has done for me and I doubt that you would believe me because it is too incredible for a natural man to grasp. But faith is also a personal thing. It is personal because we are people and God is not a force, but a living God.
But it's like anything in life, if you don't look you can't see. If for example you decided that science was a waste of time and I tried to explain to you the notion of string theory or quantum mechanics, then you would just think I was a nut. So in the end I wouldn't continue to waste my time talking science with you, just the same way I wouldn't talk politics to a 2 year old.
It is also fair enough for you to limit yourself to physical explanations for everything. But then that is the limitation you decide for yourself. It sounds to me like nobody here is going to convince you otherwise. Your mind is already made up and you are not interested in seeking, so it's not hard to see the result.
But maybe one day a thought will come to your mind that if followed will lead you to faith. If that happens do not be afraid. Faith is a beautiful thing. God is love. And your life is more precious than you could ever know.
hi again t8
Faith is not beautiful. It is a denial of our human potential. To celebrate believing things for which there is no evidence is to live in ones own personal dark age. My life is more precious in the knowledge that it is the only one I have, and lunatic fundamentalists who would like to hasten their armageddon in order to get closer to their god that is love, and don't particularly care for the fortunes of those who don't believe such nonsense, need to be talked out of it, if possible. The “who” mantra is just emperor's new clothes.
I am curious to know what made you give away your rationality.
Stuart
t8 I presume you are happy to discuss science, as it was you who asked a scientific question to start the thread way back when. Given that at some point you will have been comfortable with evolutionary theory, how have you reconciled your previous knowledge of the undisputable fact of evolution with your change in religious belief?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,02:05) Hi Kenrch ++”I mean what scripture says is that they will be those who destroy the earth. How do you explain this first century man knowing this! Is this NOT happening today?”
Sadly for you, it is not happening. Still the US is full of fundies obsessed with making end-time prophecies come true. Would you press the button to bring on judgement day?
++”According to you he must have been a very smart “monkey”.”
NO NO NO. A smart APE. Get it right. We are apes, not monkeys.
++”It was revealed to him by GOD! If not then how did he know this?”
He didn't say when. You can make any prophecy you like, and it will eventually come true if it is characteristic of the politics of humans. “There will be a great war in the holy land” is almost certain to come true eventually. Again, the only prophecies worth any real note are those sealed in a bank vault (or cave), completely unknown by those about whom the prophecy has been made. The bible is well-known and very self-fulfilling.
Stuart
Stu,Well I don't know what world you live in but all one has to do is look around. Truth is you have no answer for the question so you deny everything
. Carbon monoxide is climbing at an alarming rate. Now the third world countries are industrializing which means MORE carbon monoxide. I think may be you should Wake UP!
Mans law is based on God's law.
BUT :Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.Hmmmmm don't guess that's happening since they have been teaching that there is no God and that YOU come from an APE. What were you before you were an ape? I've heard a humming bird evolved from a crocodile
Truth is you have a lot of faith in your RELIGION to believe that !!!
That's what I call blind faith:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Good luck with your blind faith and false religion and say hello to your relatives in the zoo for me
.Hi Kenrch
++”Well I don't know what world you live in but all one has to do is look around. Truth is you have no answer for the question so you deny everything . “
Easy. The bible is self-fulfilling. Ask me a hard one.
++”Carbon monoxide is climbing at an alarming rate. Now the third world countries are industrializing which means MORE carbon monoxide. I think may be you should Wake UP!”
I think you mean carbon dioxide. Does the bible say that all the kingdoms of the Earth will suffer rises in temperature and sea level? No. It has no power whatever to prophecise any better than an illusionist. How do you know that carbon dioxide is rising? Did you have to trust a scientist?
++”Mans law is based on God's law.
BUT :Mat 24:12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold.”So on what did men base their laws in pagan Roman times?
In my country, according to police statistics, lawlessness has actually dropped since the 1950s. That corresponds with decreasing church attendance.++”Hmmmmm don't guess that's happening since they have been teaching that there is no God and that YOU come from an APE. What were you before you were an ape?”
We have both shared ancestors with chimpanzees, gorillas, bonobos, orangutans, and moving backwards in time we share ancestors with all other mammals, the eventually birds, reptiles and so on.
This is an established fact which you are perfectly free to ignore. But that would make you sound ignorant.++”Truth is you have a lot of faith in your RELIGION to believe that !!!
That's what I call blind faith:
[removed historical fiction reference]
Good luck with your blind faith and false religion and say hello to your relatives in the zoo for me”You seem very upset at the facts of your ancestry.
Stuart
Stu, God uses everyone on this planet. All are His children even those who don't know Him. So sure scientist are used by God.
You are still avoiding the fact that this first century man pointed to today and said destroy those who destroy the earth. How were they destroying the earth in the first century?
You don't know what you are missing, knowing the creator of the universe.
Stu if you took an automobile engine apart and put all the parts in a mixer and mixed all the parts do you think the engine would come out running? Even if all the parts fell into place they still need to be tightened to the correct torque. Who would turn the key
.How much more complex is your body. Common sense tells you some master mind created everything.
Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
The problem with those who don't want to know God is that they are not spiritual. Physical like the animals they say they come from all in order to do their own will having a seared conscience.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;I know if you watch TV evangelist you can clearly see what they are after. They are after their god…money. When asked what will be the signs of His coming this was the very first warning.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
Many have come saying that Jesus IS the Christ and has mislead MANY. But their is an remnant, those who seek the truth and love the truth.
Personally I believe we are to harvest those who believe. It is harvest time! However the Holy Spirit is still tugging on some.
Why are you here Stu? Why would you waste your time trying to shake the faith of God's children who KNOW the Creator and are His children? You may still have a chance Our Father's wish is that no one should perish but have everlasting life. It's yours if you want it all you have to do is ask. You have NEVER experienced anything like a personal relation ship with the Father and Son through the Holy Spirit. It is truly OUT Of This Physical World.The first time I asked Jesus into my heart I waited about 5/10 minutes then got up and went out to party! Boy was I sincere uh! However as time went on the more serious I became and had to actual force my flesh to go to a church and confess Jesus after baptism I received the Holy Spirit. Stu you probably know more about the bible than I knew at that time. I couldn't name the Gospels!! So it's not like I was brain washed! In fact I didn't know what was happening to me I never experienced a high like that in my life and I had done everything but stick a needle in my arm searching to fill what was empty inside of me. Drugs won't do it, money won't do it, education won't do it. Only Jesus gives us fulfillment.
You are here for a reason Stu, you may not realize it NOW but you will one way or another, either OR, the choice will be yours.Stick around you may just learn something that you never believed possible.
God bless you as the Spirit nudges you to truth!
IHN&L,
Ken
Hi Kenrch
++”Stu if you took an automobile engine apart and put all the parts in a mixer and mixed all the parts do you think the engine would come out running? Even if all the parts fell into place they still need to be tightened to the correct torque. Who would turn the key ”
It’s just as well humans don’t reproduce by putting body parts in a concrete mixer. Cars are designed. Living things evolved. You clearly have no idea how evolution actually works, or else you are trying to mislead people. What was that commandment about false witness again?
++”How much more complex is your body. Common sense tells you some master mind created everything.”
Common sense can say what it likes. Science has demonstrated beyond all reasonable doubt that we have evolved by natural selection from past common ancestors.
++”I know if you watch TV evangelist you can clearly see what they are after. They are after their god…money. When asked what will be the signs of His coming this was the very first warning.”
I’m very pleased to hear you speak out strongly against televangelists. They lie about science as well.
++”Why are you here Stu? …You are here for a reason Stu, you may not realize it NOW but you will one way or another, either OR, the choice will be yours. “
I am here because I care about the truth and I am responding to t8’s call for proof (evidence) for evolution. No-one on this forum seems to actually know what evolution is about. You can reject it if you want, but you should know what you are rejecting. You could say the same about me and the bible, but I do know enough about what the bible says to know that the OT god is not the kind of thing I could worship, even if I were the worshipping kind, and the NT one is so different as to demonstrate the whole thing to be a nonsense. I would rather believe in the fairies in the bottom of my garden.
++”God bless you as the Spirit nudges you to truth!”
Please don’t pray for me. At least if you do, don’t tell me. Prayer has been demonstrated (amongst heart surgery patients) to have no effect greater than that of a placebo, except in the group of subjects where people knew they were being prayed for, when the mortality rate actually increased.
Best of luck in your search for the truth.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,02:59) I am curious to know what made you give away your rationality.
I didn't. Belief in God is completely logical and rational. If God didn't exist, nothing would exist.++”I didn't. Belief in God is completely logical and rational. If God didn't exist, nothing would exist.”
That's why I'm considering starting to worship the fairies in my garden. Life only makes sense in light of their presence and love, and without them why would the plants grow?
Stuart
To Stu.
Quote (Stu @ July 28 2007,03:22) t8 I presume you are happy to discuss science, as it was you who asked a scientific question to start the thread way back when. Given that at some point you will have been comfortable with evolutionary theory, how have you reconciled your previous knowledge of the undisputable fact of evolution with your change in religious belief? Stuart
Hey Stuart, people believed in all kinds of things and in time new theories wiped out the old ones. Lamarckian Evolution was superceded by Darwin's theory and maybe if we were having this debate before Darwin, you would be arguing Lamarck's theory.The point is that you are saying that Darwin is correct and therefore all the others were wrong, so if this is the pattern, maybe you should ask yourself what will replace Darwin?
Also understanding scientific facts doesn't contradict the fact that God exists, it enhances it.
E.g., saying that DNA of an ape is mostly similar to a human and therefore deriving that we came from Apes is still imagination. You could also argue equally that it only proves that the ape and humans came from the same programmer. All programmers reuse code and even this page you are looking at is just code with a HTML interpreter to make sense of it. (Go to the view menu and click on source to see the genetical makeup of this webpage).
I am a web developer by trade and I could for example create 2 completely looking websites but could use say 50% of the same code. I don't need to reinvent the wheel each time do I?
God works that way too. He took woman from man and made man from the elements. DNA code is interesting in that it shows a programmer or a coder.
In my job, it is a given that all created things have code, a genetical makeup of some kind. It is no different to created things in the universe. Even string theory (which is the closest to the theory of everything), describes strings that look suspiciously like DNA strands and therefore a code.
Take an image on a TV. It is logical and is the visible representation of the construct. You could argue all day about where the images came from. But scrape away the layers and you see that it is being displayed on LCD or glass. Go behind that and you see electronic components. Every part is created and fit together to make the whole.
Now take a human. You see a person. Scrape away the layers and you see flesh, blood, and bone. Keep on going and you will find cells, and they are made up of atoms which are made up of electrons and protons. Remove any one of these things and you don't have a living human. In addition to that our characteristics are displayed according to DNA code and that code is common in many other species too.
I think that humans share something like 40% DNA to a daffodil and the point of what I am saying is that God is a programmer and he brought all things into existence. He also makes things from things that already exist, but all is traced back to him. The same code shows a particular style.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Galileo once said that God created the world with mathematics. Galileo was a proponent of Copernicus and Copernicus' major theory was published in the book, De revolutionibus orbium coelestium.
This is where the term 'revolution' comes from. Do you want to be part of the revolution or left to defend a theory that is waiting to be replaced.
Quote Cars are designed. Living things evolved. Stu see that's what I mean by common sense. A simple car is by design but the most complex creation is an accident.
Stick around Stu
Hi t8
++”Lamarckian Evolution was superceded by Darwin's theory and maybe if we were having this debate before Darwin, you would be arguing Lamarck's theory.”
Yes, even Darwin incorrectly thought that Lamarck had something to contribute.
++”E.g., saying that DNA of an ape is mostly similar to a human and therefore deriving that we came from Apes is still imagination. You could also argue equally that it only proves that the ape and humans came from the same programmer.”
We are apes. That is the biological definition of what we actually are. We are most similar in DNA to chimpanzees and bonobos and the difference progressively increases as you go through gorillas, orangutans, gibbons, the old world monkeys, tarsiers, lemurs, tree shrews, rabbits, rodents, shrews, moles, hedgehogs, fruit bats, camels, pigs, deer, sheep, hippos, whales, horses, rhinos, cats, dogs, bears, weasels, hyenas, seals, walruses (and so on)… in roughly that order. EXACTLY the same tree was independently arrived at by earlier scientists who looked at the morphology of dated fossils. You might not have guessed it but the whale is more closely related to hippos than to any sea-dwelling animal. For example, whales have hips. Poor design or evolutionary adaptation You and I are more closely related to a starfish that to over 90% of the rest of living things. There is no question that Genesis describes an impossible order of creation. As I said before: EITHER a creator has attempted to deceive us by instantaneously creating everything at once with stars already half-way through their life cycles and a fossil record laid out in order with a corresponding relative DNA record, OR there is a reasonable explanation that does not require imaginary friends in the sky.
++” DNA code is interesting in that it shows a programmer or a coder…. I think that humans share something like 40% DNA to a daffodil and the point of what I am saying is that God is a programmer and he brought all things into existence. He also makes things from things that already exist, but all is traced back to him. The same code shows a particular style. “
If DNA was written by an employee of yours you would fire that person for careless, wasteful coding in which the coder stole bits of other totally unrelated code and fiddled with them randomly until they worked, despite most of the routines contained in it being entirely redundant. The working DNA that should take up say 20MB, actually occupies about 1GB, most of it codes no routine at all. God as programmer is possible, but he is incompetent and not necessary to explaining DNA. Natural selection explains perfectly the nature of DNA.
++”In my job, it is a given that all created things have code, a genetical makeup of some kind. It is no different to created things in the universe. Even string theory (which is the closest to the theory of everything), describes strings that look suspiciously like DNA strands and therefore a code.”
What part of string theory describes DNA?
++”Take an image on a TV. It is logical and is the visible representation of the construct. You could argue all day about where the images came from. But scrape away the layers and you see that it is being displayed on LCD or glass. Go behind that and you see electronic components. Every part is created and fit together to make the whole.
Fair enough. TVs have intelligent designers. They are not born.
++”Now take a human. You see a person. Scrape away the layers and you see flesh, blood, and bone. Keep on going and you will find cells, and they are made up of atoms which are made up of electrons and protons. Remove any one of these things and you don't have a living human. In addition to that our characteristics are displayed according to DNA code and that code is common in many other species too.”
Taking things away from a human body explains nothing about how that body came to be there. I’m glad you are portraying humans as animals very similar to other species. The conclusion is that biblical tenets should apply to all animals who are deserving of His Love and Salvation!? What about carrots?
++”This is where the term 'revolution' comes from. Do you want to be part of the revolution or left to defend a theory that is waiting to be replaced. “
All scientific theories are waiting to be replaced. What replacement do you propose, and how is your explanation better?
Stuart
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