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Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2008,01:00) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 09 2008,00:06) Re Einstein, been there and done that. If you believe in Einstein's god, or Spinosa's then welcome to atheism. Einstein rejected the label atheism because people were always trying to label him. I feel the same about that word. It is an accurate description but a definition of self in terms of imaginary friends invented by deluded people. It's not very flattering I have to admit. Do you think Einstein was 'not silly'?
Stuart
Einsteins God does not play dice.OK, would you prefer to be called an ape?
Stu…..Not withstanding Einsteins' IQ and so called Genius…I saw a man who was full of himself…and if you really examine his contribution to man kind….The only thing I can up with is utter destruction by means of nuclear proliferation….The fact that he was professed athiest (self hating Jew )didn't help…Quote (theodorej @ Sep. 10 2008,23:20) Quote (t8 @ Sep. 10 2008,01:00) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 09 2008,00:06) Re Einstein, been there and done that. If you believe in Einstein's god, or Spinosa's then welcome to atheism. Einstein rejected the label atheism because people were always trying to label him. I feel the same about that word. It is an accurate description but a definition of self in terms of imaginary friends invented by deluded people. It's not very flattering I have to admit. Do you think Einstein was 'not silly'?
Stuart
Einsteins God does not play dice.OK, would you prefer to be called an ape?
Stu…..Not withstanding Einsteins' IQ and so called Genius…I saw a man who was full of himself…and if you really examine his contribution to man kind….The only thing I can up with is utter destruction by means of nuclear proliferation….The fact that he was professed athiest (self hating Jew )didn't help…
Do you make a habit of displaying your ignorance so loudly? I don't think you know the first thing about Einstein achievements.Stuart
Even if Einsteins God didn't roll dice, nor did Newtons. But Newtons God was personal.
So if 2 brilliant persons can have differing opinions on God, then what does that prove?
It proves that intelligence is not at play here. Rather it is insight.
Insight is the ability to see within. Not all have it. Some of the most brilliant minds can also be extremely blind and some of the most challenged people can also possess insight. Insight is used by all types of people. Wisdom is also exercised by all types of people. Ignorance is also displayed by all sorts of people. Intelligence is not the defining factor for any of these.
I have worked with some of the smartest educators in the country and most of them don't know how to put a diagram into a PowerPoint presentation. That is because people are smart at different things. They focus on different things.
If you love something you tend to do better with that something. It is no different with God. If you love him, then life itself becomes the test. If you don't, then you are likely to attach yourself to a philosophy that has no God, or maybe a god made in your own image.
You go on about displaying ignorance so loudly Stu, but perhaps the wise thing to do is to practice what you preach? But then again, you may not have much smarts for wisdom?
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 10 2008,02:37) Who cares what you think of me? I don't. You aren't the first Christian who has thought poorly of me for “leaving the faith” nor will you be the last. If I cared about what you thought about me, I'd come back to the fold. Too bad such tactics don't work with people who have been set free from close-minded, blind faith.
Oh come on, you care. Don't be like that now.Actually I don't think badly of you for leaving the faith, I feel sorry for you. But I do think badly of you for making a mockery of other peoples faith. I think that you have a problem deep down inside and you need to try and make others feel bad to make you feel good. I don't think that is the fruit of a healthy and happy person.
If you cannot try to love your fellow man as you love yourself and love God with all your heart, then you have lost the plot IMO.
I have a question Stu.
What must I believe in order to be converted to atheism. Will believing that something can come from nothing qualify? Or will believing that an inanimate something has always existed but has been transforming for all eternity with the latest phase becoming the cosmos including galaxies, atoms, and bananas, do it?
Just wondering. Also is there a prayer that you can pray to become an atheist, like “Thank God I am an atheist?”
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,00:25) I have a question Stu. What must I believe in order to be converted to atheism. Will believing that something can come from nothing qualify? Or will believing that an inanimate something has always existed but has been transforming for all eternity with the latest phase becoming the cosmos including galaxies, atoms, and bananas, do it?
Just wondering. Also is there a prayer that you can pray to become an atheist, like “Thank God I am an atheist?”
Tee hee t8.I don't think you can 'convert' to atheism. Doesn't that mean converting from something to something else? Atheism really isn't a thing at all, ironically it is a religious label. There certainly is no dogmatic, blind belief in anything. The only thing that 'unites' atheists is the fascinating (and sometimes distressing) realisation that others have been deluded by this religious meme. Febrile imagination of a fantasy world is the major symptom.
The process of 'conversion' would be more like recovering from a bad cold… or the black plague in the cases of the particularly zealous.
Stuart
t8
Quote Even if Einsteins God didn't roll dice, nor did Newtons. But Newtons God was personal.
And Newton was indeed very devout.Quote So if 2 brilliant persons can have differing opinions on God, then what does that prove?
Nothing really. You can’t disprove a negative. You can point out that there is no evidence, but then in Newton’s time we had not had the insights of Darwin and others who made calculations that began to disprove the myths in Genesis. Virtually all scientists of Newton’s time were creationists. The change to widespread skepticism has coincided with us finding out exponentially more about life, the planet and the universe. What does that tell you?Quote It proves that intelligence is not at play here. Rather it is insight.
Can you tell me the difference? Isn’t insight applied intelligence?Quote Insight is the ability to see within. Not all have it.
Ah I see. Conveniently you choose a definition that will not pin you to saying anything concrete.Quote Some of the most brilliant minds can also be extremely blind and some of the most challenged people can also possess insight. Insight is used by all types of people. Wisdom is also exercised by all types of people. Ignorance is also displayed by all sorts of people. Intelligence is not the defining factor for any of these. I have worked with some of the smartest educators in the country and most of them don't know how to put a diagram into a PowerPoint presentation. That is because people are smart at different things. They focus on different things. If you love something you tend to do better with that something. It is no different with God. If you love him, then life itself becomes the test. If you don't, then you are likely to attach yourself to a philosophy that has no God, or maybe a god made in your own image.
Your assertion about intelligence is not supported there. Can you reference any research for it? …Or even a dictionary definition of it?Quote You go on about displaying ignorance so loudly Stu, but perhaps the wise thing to do is to practice what you preach? But then again, you may not have much smarts for wisdom?
The wisdom I aspire to is to understand the limits of my knowledge and not step outside them into a fantasy world which then becomes the focus of my energy. That is clearly delusion, not wisdom or insight.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,07:09) Ah I see. Conveniently you choose a definition that will not pin you to saying anything concrete.
Insight is made up of 2 words “in” and “sight”. It is different to normal sight where you observe the world around you.Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,07:09) Your assertion about intelligence is not supported there. Can you reference any research for it?
It is not hard to observe.You will in your everyday life meet people who believe in God and those who don't. They range in all shapes and sizes, IQs, and job descriptions from labourers to CEOs.
You can observe such things for yourself. Try it out. When you meet someone, try and find out if they believe or not. Then when you have compiled enough data on people, look at their backgrounds. Try and not be selective about it.
Belief in God is the ability to see that he created all things and as a result, to know that non-belief in God is quite silly. i.e., that the universe came from nothing or is a substance of some kind that has been transforming itself from eternity with the latest stage being the cosmos.
You get the idea.
Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,07:09) The wisdom I aspire to is to understand the limits of my knowledge and not step outside them into a fantasy world which then becomes the focus of my energy. That is clearly delusion, not wisdom or insight.
Ha ha.Which ones are the fantasy according to you?
- The cosmos was created by God.
- The cosmos came from absolutely nothing.
- The cosmos is made up of material that is eternal, a sort of substance or thing that has been transforming itself from eternity with the latest stage being the cosmos.
How about you give me a straight answer. Which fantasy do you choose?
Come on, you don't get asked that everyday.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2008,07:03) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 10 2008,02:37) Who cares what you think of me? I don't. You aren't the first Christian who has thought poorly of me for “leaving the faith” nor will you be the last. If I cared about what you thought about me, I'd come back to the fold. Too bad such tactics don't work with people who have been set free from close-minded, blind faith.
Oh come on, you care. Don't be like that now.No, I don't care. Not about what you think of me — I must be myself. While we will often adjust our behavior (justifiably or not) on many occasions, this, IMHO, is not one of them.
Belief beyond the know — which covers the bulk of spiritual beliefs — is highly personal. What's true for you might not be true for me. As I've said in other places, there are non-Christian theists who claim to have encountered other gods. Can you say they are wrong while asserting that you have encountered yours? You are not them and cannot know their inner being.
Quote Actually I don't think badly of you for leaving the faith, I feel sorry for you. Why? Leaving Christianity was the best thing for me. I could no longer live the life of a Christian when I could not say what was right or wrong about the bible. I guess I could ignore the bad parts of the bible like most Christians do and come up with my own interpretations (again like most Christians do) but I just could not be honest with myself. That is nothing to feel sorry about.
Quote But I do think badly of you for making a mockery of other peoples faith. Again, I challenge you to show me where I mock others faith. I admit to mocking the bible, which obviously so many equate with mocking their faith, but if that is the case you don't have a relationship with your god. Your relationship is stagnant and based on a book.
Quote I think that you have a problem deep down inside and you need to try and make others feel bad to make you feel good. I would advise you to give up on on amateur psychoanalysis. You do a poor job of it. You have tried to say I was like your ex-friend who passed away and that was wrong, and now you are wrong once more.
One of the biggest reasons I put out questions about the bible is to get you to realize your religion is no better than any other out there. Christianity is not better than Islam, Hinduism, B'hai, theistic Buddhism, Zen, or any other form of spirituality. It may be better for you but not everyone has the same personality and mentality.
When you have to defend the bible, you see how it feels to be those that Christians often ridicule. When you can't seem to defend it reasonably (think of the “Too Hrd Basket”) you realize that like any other human religion — and Christianity is that — there are flaws. Whether you try to ignore the flaws or not, they are there to those on the outside, and often to those on the inside as well.
Quote I don't think that is the fruit of a healthy and happy person. Is your constant bickering back and forth with Stu and WJ, where neither party ever makes headway, the fruit of a healthy and happy person? When will you agree to disagree with them on the issues that you have been arguing with them about for so long now? Its been over a year you have been arguing with Stu in this very thread and much, much longer with WJ and the trinity. None of you has bedged an inch from your positions.
Quote If you cannot try to love your fellow man as you love yourself and love God with all your heart, then you have lost the plot IMO.
Odd, but I do those things. Sadly, you see challenges against the bible as personal affronts. It is a book and not your god.Sorry KJ, but anyone who goes to someone's place and persecutes their beliefs and gets satisfaction in doing so has a problem inside. Outward signs only show what is in the heart.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 12 2008,09:35) Odd, but I do those things. Sadly, you see challenges against the bible as personal affronts. It is a book and not your god.
KJ, there is a difference between mocking and challenging. A big difference.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2008,17:50) Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 12 2008,09:35) Odd, but I do those things. Sadly, you see challenges against the bible as personal affronts. It is a book and not your god.
KJ, there is a difference between mocking and challenging. A big difference.
Mocking, challenging…its pretty much the same when it comes to a book.Quote (t8 @ Sep. 11 2008,17:47) Sorry KJ, but anyone who goes to someone's place and persecutes their beliefs and gets satisfaction in doing so has a problem inside. Outward signs only show what is in the heart.
Why don't people here ignore people like Stu and I? We can't go into the “Believer's Section”.Here is my suggestion: close the entire forum to non-believers. I suggested it long ago. It is the best way to deal with this. Until you do you will always have people who will challenge your beliefs coming along.
But when you do, remember that you also support not calling atheists fools just because your holy book does. After all, you will be mocking their non-belief.
Here are the pages you need to take down on your site because they mock other's beliefs:
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer08.htm
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer09.htm
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer20.htm
https://heavennet.net/answers/answer31.htm
https://heavennet.net/writings/dear-atheist.htm
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinitytest.htm
https://heavennet.net/writings/atheist.htm
https://heavennet.net/writings/trinity.htmThey attack people's belief (or lack thereof). You should not do that.
KJ, there is a difference between mocking and testing or challenging. For that reason the teachings will stay.
Mocking involves making fun of God or those that believe in him. Testing and challenging involves looking at proof whether that be scientific, scriptural, or whatever else proof there may be.
It's not even a fine line because the defining thing is the attitude. One is to help and correct, the other is to ridicule.
Quote (kejonn @ Sep. 12 2008,12:10) Why don't people here ignore people like Stu and I? We can't go into the “Believer's Section”.
I agree that people could and should in some cases ignore you and that would even serve a better purpose if they did. But I personally am not offended by you guys and so will debate/talk from time to time. Most of the time, I prefer the Believers Place because there are subjects being discussed that are related to why the forums were setup to begin with.But I think having another area where non-believers can partake is a good thing because they actually sometimes have useful info. I also think it is good to challenge those who mock with a good reason as to why they shouldn't mainly because at the end of the day, we all have a belief one way or another and therefore if you mock then rightly so, you can be mocked for the same reason.
Also, hecklers actually draw crowds. That is a fact. So I think that is another useful reason. When some see the injustice of mocking God and his people, then often that makes some want to defend the treasure that is being trodden in the mud. And they get involved and hopefully they are challenged and learn stuff too.
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,09:05) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,07:09) Ah I see. Conveniently you choose a definition that will not pin you to saying anything concrete.
Insight is made up of 2 words “in” and “sight”. It is different to normal sight where you observe the world around you.
But you still have not said what meaning you use it for. Looking 'in' what?Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Sep. 12 2008,09:12) Quote (Stu @ Sep. 12 2008,07:09) Your assertion about intelligence is not supported there. Can you reference any research for it?
It is not hard to observe.You will in your everyday life meet people who believe in God and those who don't. They range in all shapes and sizes, IQs, and job descriptions from labourers to CEOs.
You can observe such things for yourself. Try it out. When you meet someone, try and find out if they believe or not. Then when you have compiled enough data on people, look at their backgrounds. Try and not be selective about it.
Belief in God is the ability to see that he created all things and as a result, to know that non-belief in God is quite silly. i.e., that the universe came from nothing or is a substance of some kind that has been transforming itself from eternity with the latest stage being the cosmos.
You get the idea.
I don't get your idea. you related intelligence to other qualities yet you have not said what intelligence actually is. All this other bluster does not answer my question. As usual.“Belief in God is the ability to see that he created all things and as a result, to know that non-belief in God is quite silly” doesn't make grammatical sense.
Stuart
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