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Hi Stu,
Who are religious fundamentalists?
Crusaders?Surely you are confusing those who believe in Christianising society by political means
with those who believe in the bible and just want to spread the message of salvation in Christ?Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 16 2008,17:14) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,15:31) Can you think of an example that absolutely requires faith?
As a Christian there are many things I choose to do on trust and faith in God.I also choose to not to give you examples, even though I know this will bring a tirade of scorn upon me.
You see, it doesn't matter what I tell you it will be viewed through a non-believer's eyes and no matter how much you say you want to understand, I know that you won't understand simply because you are filled with anger and distain towards Christians.
I don't really have anger. I feign anger at the Judeo-christian god, but because actually there is no such thng then there is no such anger either. I am not angry with christians; I have sympathy for the deluded and ignorant among them (are there any that aren't to some degree?). I do find much to lament about christianity as an ideology though. It is anti-human and narrow minded, with no good insight into the human condition or breadth of our legitimate experience. Pehaps I should be dismayed with Saul of Tarsus and the other arch fundies who invented it.Anyway the question is not about your faith, it is about mine. Do you think I do anything purely on faith? I don't think I do.
Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2008,17:23) Hi Stu,
Who are religious fundamentalists?
Crusaders?Surely you are confusing those who believe in Christianising society by political means
with those who believe in the bible and just want to spread the message of salvation in Christ?
Maybe I do. If you were genuinely indifferent about issues like homosexual law reform then my argument would not apply to you. Of course when you say you want to 'spread the message of salvation in Christ' and then write about those who do not share your view in the terms that you do, you can understand my skepticism that you are indifferent to wanting others to follow the bible literally. I think you do want that.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,15:31) I am very interested in what happens in that case. I think there could be several reasons why an atheist would convert. For those interested, read Stu's reasons in his original post
Of course, I should have known, an atheist couldn't just choose to become a Christian because he discovers the truth for himself….there has to be something wrong with him or his reasoning!
Hey Stu are all non-believers peace loving people? And without those who believe in God, would the world would be a paradise of love and understanding? In that scenario and if they all believed in Evolution, would survival of the fittest not be engaged in because of tolerance for the weak?
I think that a planet of atheists would be a planet of people who believed that there was no eternal consequence for their actions. I think that would be the most dangerous planet of all.
IMHO
Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 16 2008,17:43) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,15:31) Heavens wrote:Can you explain life-time atheists who choose to become Christian? Do they ultimately discover there is a God?
Stu wrote:I am very interested in what happens in that case. I think there could be several reasons why an atheist would convert.
For those interested, read Stu's reasons in his original post[/quote]
Of course, I should have known, an atheist couldn't just choose to become a Christian because he discovers the truth for himself….there has to be something wrong with him or his reasoning!
Of course you post hinges on a very subjective definition of 'truth'! I think the gold standard in means for finding truth is the scientific method. By that standard much of the contents of the Judeo-christian holy book is not true. If your gold standard is revelation then I want to know one truth that has been just 'revealed', not investigated by rigourous scientific means, that has unquestionably benefitted all of humankind. Even one demonstrable fact that has been established, uncovered purely by divine revelation, would be good.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 15 2008,05:20) But you are incapable of describing to me what it is that I cannot see.
I could you know, but I choose not to because I do not think you would listen.There is wisdom in not casting pearls before the swine.
If you were genuinely interested then I could explain my experience with God. I have in the past told some about what I have experienced and they just couldn't believe what I had to say. I have learned from that. It is not wise to cast pearls before the swine.
Because you concentrate on logic, I simply show you from logic how silly it is to believe that there is no God/creator/designer.
If you cannot listen to that, then you will surely not listen to greater things.
Even Jesus only spoke plainly to those whom believed and whom he trusted.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:37) I am not angry with christians; I have sympathy for the deluded and ignorant among them (are there any that aren't to some degree?). My proof that no matter what I, or probably any other Christian says, it will not be taken seriously because we're all deluded and you're not.
Keep taking your meds.
Yeah Stu must be right. He possesses less than 000000000.3% of all knowledge in creation and he just knows that God doesn't exist.
Seems compelling doesn't it?
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:41) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2008,17:23) Hi Stu,
Who are religious fundamentalists?
Crusaders?Surely you are confusing those who believe in Christianising society by political means
with those who believe in the bible and just want to spread the message of salvation in Christ?
Maybe I do. If you were genuinely indifferent about issues like homosexual law reform then my argument would not apply to you. Of course when you say you want to 'spread the message of salvation in Christ' and then write about those who do not share your view in the terms that you do, you can understand my skepticism that you are indifferent to wanting others to follow the bible literally. I think you do want that.Stuart
Hi Stu,
Sadly you have come to the wrong place if politics is your hope.
The door of Christ is the hope we offer.
The rest of the walk is over to themQuote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:37) Anyway the question is not about your faith, it is about mine.
I thought atheists didn't had faith?
Hi t8
Quote Hey Stu are all non-believers peace loving people? And without those who believe in God, would the world would be a paradise of love and understanding?
Non-believer are humans too. They have all the proclivities for tribal behaviour that has given us evolutionary advantage in our tribal pasts. If religions were to vanish overnight there would be one fewer tribal label on which to focus prejudice. Northern Ireland and Jerusalem would be transformed, and maybe other places where religion is the distinguishing mark between opponents. Do you think if everyone converted to your version of christianity the world would be full of love and peace?Quote In that scenario and if they all believed in Evolution, would survival of the fittest not be engaged in because of tolerance for the weak?
I think your stawman shows that you don’t understand the evolutionary basis for love and cooperation. You certainly don’t know how natural selection works.Quote I think that a planet of atheists would be a planet of people who believed that there was no eternal consequence for their actions. I think that would be the most dangerous planet of all.
Is the only reason you behave well (I assume) that you fear the eternal consequences? Most non-believers I know have a little more sophistication than that. In the US, somewhere in the order of 10-15% of the population are atheists (it is almost certainly more like 30 to 35%). The prison population comprises 0.2% atheists. Even factoring in a massive rate of prison conversion to christianity, that is still a huge difference.Maybe the atheists are too smart to get caught!
Stuart
Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 16 2008,17:55) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:37) I am not angry with christians; I have sympathy for the deluded and ignorant among them (are there any that aren't to some degree?). My proof that no matter what I, or probably any other Christian says, it will not be taken seriously because we're all deluded and you're not.
Keep taking your meds.
No, not whatever you say. Only the things that can be shown to be wrong, or the extravagant claims that are not supported by extraordinary evidence. That is where the delusion comes in. I don't think is is me who requires advice about taking medication!Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 16 2008,18:28) Stu seems to admit that it requires a measure of a type of faith to believe that there is no God.
Do you have some evidence of me writing this? Or are you doing the usual trick of playing fast and loose with commonly understood definitions again?Stuart
Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 16 2008,18:06) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:37) Anyway the question is not about your faith, it is about mine.
I thought atheists didn't had faith?
Excellent! I'm glad you see it my way. Not everyone here does! Several have told me that for me to love someone unconditionally requires faith, but I call it trust because the relationship is based on evidence of mutual care.And so on.
Stuart
Hi t8
Stu: But you are incapable of describing to me what it is that I cannot see.
Quote I could you know, but I choose not to because I do not think you would listen. There is wisdom in not casting pearls before the swine.
Another insult. Should I report your post to a mod?Quote If you were genuinely interested then I could explain my experience with God. I have in the past told some about what I have experienced and they just couldn't believe what I had to say. I have learned from that. It is not wise to cast pearls before the swine.
And again.I am not asking for an account of your ‘experience with god’, I want to know what it is that you can know that I cannot because I do not believe in the supernatural being(s) that you do.
Quote Because you concentrate on logic, I simply show you from logic how silly it is to believe that there is no God/creator/designer. If you cannot listen to that, then you will surely not listen to greater things.
I have listened to it, and heard it a hundred times from you and you will just have to believe me that you are wrong, because you show no signs that you are capable of thinking about the issue for yourself. The illusion of design is powerful and I understand how that argument works, but it is completely wrong for explaining the origins of the natural world. You have no theory, no evidence, not even a plausible hypothesis about how it all happened. There is no explaining power there at all. I am now calling your bluff on whether revelation can be of any use at all and you are being coy and resorting to insulting me. Not very convincing. If it were true, shouldn’t it be easier than this to show me that truth?Quote Even Jesus only spoke plainly to those whom believed and whom he trusted.
I’m not surprised. Paul’s invented Jesus was saying absurd things that were patently lies. I don’t know what Jesus actually said, and I don’t think you know either.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,18:36) Quote (Heavens @ Feb. 16 2008,17:55) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,17:37) I am not angry with christians; I have sympathy for the deluded and ignorant among them (are there any that aren't to some degree?). My proof that no matter what I, or probably any other Christian says, it will not be taken seriously because we're all deluded and you're not.
Keep taking your meds.
No, not whatever you say. Only the things that can be shown to be wrong, or the extravagant claims that are not supported by extraordinary evidence. That is where the delusion comes in. I don't think is is me who requires advice about taking medication!Stuart
Hi Stu,
Are you the paragon of normality with whom all are compared?
Are all deluded who do not see your blighted view?
How can you ever claim to be a scientist?Quote (t8 @ Feb. 16 2008,17:57) Yeah Stu must be right. He possesses less than 000000000.3% of all knowledge in creation and he just knows that God doesn't exist. Seems compelling doesn't it?
I should think I know much less than that percentage. I don't know that god does not exist. I admit that freely and in the full knowledge that I cannot prove or even show it with much conviction. However, you know there is a god. thus you shoot your own argument in the foot. I refer you to the response by a guest to the painfully illogical piece 'There's no such thing as an Athiest', to be read here:https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=1790
Stuart
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