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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2008,19:56) Hi Stu,
You are in command of the facts?
And yet you do not even know about God?
As we discussed earlier, the fact that humans arose by natural selection has nothing at all to do with the existence or otherwise of supernatural beings.My provisional conclusions are these:
1. Humans are a result of natural selection
2. There is no such thing as a god
Both conform to the evidence. Both are provisional. They are independent of one another. The first makes the second easier to comprehend in a naive way, but that is only a matter of finding a way to see through the illusion of apparent design.
Stuart
You do not even understand why you are different to animals.
That is why you cannot rise above the body you are housed in.Such people were spoken of long ago.
Jude 1:10
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 13 2008,20:57) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 13 2008,19:56) Hi Stu,
You are in command of the facts?
And yet you do not even know about God?
As we discussed earlier, the fact that humans arose by natural selection has nothing at all to do with the existence or otherwise of supernatural beings.My provisional conclusions are these:
1. Humans are a result of natural selection
2. There is no such thing as a god
Both conform to the evidence. Both are provisional. They are independent of one another. The first makes the second easier to comprehend in a naive way, but that is only a matter of finding a way to see through the illusion of apparent design.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
These are not facts by any use of the word.
Besides bias is not a provisional conclusion.Quote (t8 @ Feb. 13 2008,22:24) You do not even understand why you are different to animals.
That is why you cannot rise above the body you are housed in.Such people were spoken of long ago.
Jude 1:10
Yet these men speak abusively against whatever they do not understand; and what things they do understand by instinct, like unreasoning animals—these are the very things that destroy them.
You and I are both animals. We have big neocortexes. We can consider the future and our own places in the universe. There is little evidence for this ability existing in other, even closely-related animals.You still cannot tell me what special knowledge you have that I can't possibly know, and you have not accounted for former fundamentalist christians of long-standing who become atheist. Do they forget the presence of god? Do they lie?
Stuart
Hi Nick
Stu: My provisional conclusions are these:
1. Humans are a result of natural selection
2. There is no such thing as a god
Both conform to the evidence. Both are provisional. They are independent of one another. The first makes the second easier to comprehend in a naive way, but that is only a matter of finding a way to see through the illusion of apparent design.
Quote These are not facts by any use of the word.
Besides bias is not a provisional conclusion.I have given a definition of the word fact, and the first of these statements conforms to it. The second one conforms to the empirical evidence available. There is no bias involved on my part. Despite what you might think I have no particular agenda other than discovering the truth. I am still open to the possibility that there is a god of the type you describe. You could show us that you have no agenda by demonstrating a similar commitment to the possibility that there is no god.
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2008,17:15) You and I are both animals. We have big neocortexes. We can consider the future and our own places in the universe. There is little evidence for this ability existing in other, even closely-related animals. You still cannot tell me what special knowledge you have that I can't possibly know, and you have not accounted for former fundamentalist christians of long-standing who become atheist. Do they forget the presence of god? Do they lie?
Stuart
Stu. Humans can be animals if they choose, because they have flesh and instincts as animals do, although different flesh and different instincts.But there are things that humans can possess that separate us from animals of instinct. But then how would you know this if you are a self confessed animal/ape who has no idea of divinity.
You are like a blind man who says I don't believe in colour.
Quote (t8 @ Feb. 14 2008,22:24) Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2008,17:15) You and I are both animals. We have big neocortexes. We can consider the future and our own places in the universe. There is little evidence for this ability existing in other, even closely-related animals. You still cannot tell me what special knowledge you have that I can't possibly know, and you have not accounted for former fundamentalist christians of long-standing who become atheist. Do they forget the presence of god? Do they lie?
Stuart
Stu. Humans can be animals if they choose, because they have flesh and instincts as animals do, although different flesh and different instincts.But there are things that humans can possess that separate us from animals of instinct. But then how would you know this if you are a self confessed animal/ape who has no idea of divinity.
You are like a blind man who says I don't believe in colour.
But you are incapable of describing to me what it is that I cannot see. You are like the hospital patient who visits another bed-ridden patient and describes the wonderful vibrant scene he sees from the window. When the visitor dies the bed-ridden patient asks another to describe the scene for him and he is told there is nothing but the blank wall opposite. A wonderful illusion has been described for the comfort of the sick, but it was essentially a lie.Stuart
Hi Stu,
If you cannot see then buy salve for your sick eyes.
Don't bother trying to tell us what we see is not there.Revelation 3:18
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2008,05:39) Hi Stu,
If you cannot see then buy salve for your sick eyes.
Don't bother trying to tell us what we see is not there.Revelation 3:18
I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.
What you see is not there. You cannot describe it. you cannot produce any knowledge that humans do not already know by their own efforts of discovery, be they believer or atheist alike. You cannot give even one clear, indisputable benefit to humans of such (to you) 'seeable' things. Many humans claim to see things that you would scoff at. Your bluff is called.Stuart
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2008,04:29) Hi Stu,
So what you cannot see cannot exist.
I see.
No, what I cannot 'see' I cannot know about. That is true for you too.Stuart
Hi Stu,
We can show you.
Unless you do not want to know.
And are rather impelled to keep others from entering the gate too.Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,06:19) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 16 2008,04:29) Hi Stu,
So what you cannot see cannot exist.
I see.No, what I cannot 'see' I cannot know about. That is true for you too.
I cannot see air, but I know about it. I cannot see gas, but I know about it. I cannot see smells, but I know about them.Sometimes you simply have to have faith, and believe.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 14 2008,17:15) ….and you have not accounted for former fundamentalist christians of long-standing who become atheist. Do they forget the presence of god?
Can you explain life-time atheists who choose to become Christian? Do they ultimately discover there is a God?
Hi Heavens
Stu: No, what I cannot 'see' I cannot know about. That is true for you too.
Quote I cannot see air, but I know about it. I cannot see gas, but I know about it. I cannot see smells, but I know about them. Sometimes you simply have to have faith, and believe.
We have been using the word ‘see’ here for some time and it is important to understand that it is not used in the literal sense of vision. It is used to mean perceive with senses (or magical powers, depending on whose post you are reading!). You can see chlorine and nitrogen dioxide because they are coloured. You can feel gas by waving your hands, or you can measure its pressure. No need for faith there. I have stated that because I do not have religious or astrological or UFO belief that there is nothing that I need faith for. I think there is never a time when you need to use faith. I often do things on trust, but that is always based on some evidence for the belief. Can you think of an example that absolutely requires faith?Stu:….and you have not accounted for former fundamentalist christians of long-standing who become atheist. Do they forget the presence of god?
Quote Can you explain life-time atheists who choose to become Christian? Do they ultimately discover there is a God?
I am very interested in what happens in that case. I think there could be several reasons why an atheist would convert. The enthusiasm the human brain has for seeing patterns where none exist has a big part to play. For example evolutionary theory is easy to understand but counter-intuitive. The argument from design in nature is compelling for many, but is completely wrong. For those who convert for that reason they are doing so on the basis of ignorance. Churches offer companionship and very persuasive leadership; pressure is brought to bear by friends and loved ones. These have nothing to do with whether christianity is a true view of the world. I would also be happy to bet that today there are more ‘christians’ who are closet atheists than there are professed non-believers who are closet christians. Especially in the US.Stuart
I'd take your side of the bet Stu. There is little “fear” for an atheist to be a closet Christian, but much societal fear in vice-versa.
Quote (Stu @ Feb. 16 2008,15:31) Can you think of an example that absolutely requires faith?
As a Christian there are many things I choose to do on trust and faith in God.I also choose to not to give you examples, even though I know this will bring a tirade of scorn upon me.
You see, it doesn't matter what I tell you it will be viewed through a non-believer's eyes and no matter how much you say you want to understand, I know that you won't understand simply because you are filled with anger and distain towards Christians.
Quote (kejonn @ Feb. 16 2008,16:07) I'd take your side of the bet Stu. There is little “fear” for an atheist to be a closet Christian, but much societal fear in vice-versa.
There is another side to it in New Zealand. While just under 50% of the population identify as christian of some kind, there is a social stigma put on fundamentalist christianity and often people with literalist beliefs tend not to be very public about them possibly for fear of ridicule. I guess such people find communities of like mind and share the reassurances that scripture gives that they are right and everyone else is wrong. While we probably have nothing to fear directly from those who post here, the dangerous consequences of religious fundamentalists forming cliques is becoming very apparent. Perhaps it is non-believers who need to reach out in fellowship more. Of course they are notorious for not doing anything in a unified way!Stuart
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