- This topic has 1,340 replies, 50 voices, and was last updated 14 years, 3 months ago by
.
- Posts
Hi Stu,
Men glory in their discoveries of the beauty and order of the universe but rarely ask why.You know of Jesus and his sufferings and death as revealed in the gospels-if you have faith in the gospels that is-then did you know that many of the details of these matters were written down 500 years or more in in advance in books like Isaiah?
Science does not seem to provide an answer to how this can be done does it?
Hi Nick
Regarding the appearance of a messiah does Isaiah refer to the future or present tense? Does the text presage christianity or refer to an instance of one of the many virgin birth myths found in other systems of belief? Did the gospel writers have a prophesy that just begged for mythical fulfillment regardless of the fictions required to make it so? Is Nazareth close enough to Bethlehem to count? If indeed He had Dangly Bits from where did The Lord's Y chromosome come?
Science has more questions than answers.
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Sometimes the prophets spoke for both the present and the future.God declares the future and it comes to pass
Is 48
” 3I have declared the former things from the beginning; and they went forth out of my mouth, and I shewed them; I did them suddenly, and they came to pass”
Here is Is 42 describing the servant Lord1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
2He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. “
And 49
“1Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.2And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God.
5And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. “
and 50, his abuse at the ahnds of his captors” 4The Lord GOD hath given me the tongue of the learned, that I should know how to speak a word in season to him that is weary: he wakeneth morning by morning, he wakeneth mine ear to hear as the learned. “
And 52
“13Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.14As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.”
and 53 towards his death
” 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.”
He fulfilled all these and more.
The Word of God is a glimpse of another and a greater reality where God is in control.5The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.
6I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
7For the Lord GOD will help me; therefore shall I not be confounded: therefore have I set my face like a flint, and I know that I shall not be ashamed. “
So, Nick, I take it your answer to the question about the need for the gospel writers to demonstrate fulfillment of messianic prophesy at all costs is No? On the surfact it would seem impossible to believe, given the gaping inconsistencies between the gospels.
From bullish megalomania to victimhood, Isaiah covers all the qualities we most admire in the LORD and his followers!
Stuart
Hi Stu,
So back to the question as to whether there is anything beyond our observations in the natural universe and as to the reason for that observed order?Hi Stu,
Even within the visible universe there are some strange matters for those who prefer evolution theory. If all life came from a self dividing monoculture where and why did the predominant Male-Female attrribute of nature enter the picture? It makes no evolutionary sense that it would begin and could become almost universal in all visible life forms.Ok, remembering that humans have evolved a particularly strong sense of pattern finding (when that pattern of stars appears it is time to plant wheat, mid-tide is the best time to catch fish, what numbers are needed for that Sudoko…), and we as a species seem very susceptible to false conspiracy theories, what does “order” mean, and what phenomena are observed by us for which our current best explanation is not a scientific model? Nick, I can't think of any…
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Have you not observed the orderly harmony in the skies and on earth that give us the seasons and the sun shine and rain we rely on for our crops? Should we take for granted what is and not ask why?Hi Stu,
Is not science a poor tool for measuring life? Does science explain everything? Darwin did not offer his theory as the final answer as to cause but only raised questions as to the means of change yet it is now worshiped as undeniable fact and foundational truth. It seems men were longing for an excuse to deny creation and he became an unwilling ally.Hi Nick,
Are you being poetic, or do you genuinely not know why we have seasons, or why our planet orbits a star, or the atmospheric conditions that give rise to rainfall?
Re science: Please tell me a better measuring tool for anything.
Honestly, Nick there is no controversy about evolution except in the minds of those who cannot reconcile the fact that evolution has occurred, with their religious faith. As I wrote earlier, it is not for me to tell you what to believe or how to behave or what to think, but don't be mistaken about the true nature of evolution. It is a theory that explains why the few fossils that we have found show gradual changes in form, ordered in time from the oldest rocks to the youngest. There are now very decent fossil records of transitional forms, the most famous being of the evolution of the horse.
Creation “scientists” (the ones who write books that praise their deities every three pages then claim that it is scientists that have an agenda) are simply and bare-facedly lying when they say that radio nuclide dating is unreliable. Have a look in Wikipedia and elsewhere for Isochron Dating if you don't trust me on this. By comparing the morphology of dated fossils a tree of life can be built up showing how closely one species is related to the others. While some fantastic work was done with not much to go on (fossils are so rare) the real killer evidence is that modern techniques that compare DNA of extant species gives exactly the same tree of life as the morphology did. Independently. What really is astonishing is how right Darwin was, working without the tools of modern science. The serious debates in evolution are about the relative importance of various means of natural selection.
From what I have read, the details of human evolution are notoriously difficult to pin down because of the similarities in appearance of so much of the hominid skeleton and the fact that there is only one species of Homo left on the planet (hence comparative DNA becomes difficult). Of course the fact that in the past we have shared ancestors with Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Gorillas, Orangutans, and in fact every known living thing back to the origin of life itself is well established. You may as well deny the existence of gravity as deny that evolution has happened.I have to assume that you ask questions about this subject with a genuine interest to learn, just as I do, and I recommend to anyone who has adopted a fundamentalist biblical view to learn from a reliable source exactly what the theory of evolution says, even if you then reject it for whatever reasons you might have. The saddest thing is that most of the creationists I have talked with are very ignorant about evolution, presumably kept that way by a church or by the sheer difficulty in learning enough about paleontology, molecular biology, geology, nuclear physics, chemistry, zoology, botany (etc) to make an informed personal decision.
Stuart
To Stu.
Quote (Stu @ July 19 2007,19:11) Not3in1: Thanks for the welcome. I'm afraid I will have to differ with you on the “whose research” thing. The fact is that so called young-earth creation scientists actually do pretty much no original scientific research but spend their time reinterpreting the work of others. There are three characteristics of this activity that particularly grate on those who hold science in high regard: firstly they interpret evidence by making the most tortuous and nonsensical assumptions (eg: variable radioactive decay rates, variable speed of light, wildly accelerated speed of continental drift, deposition rates many orders of mag. higher than observed today), secondly they pick on a few outlying data points and use them to ridicule the otherwise obvious trendline. Lastly, they ridicule honesty. When a biochemist says she can speculate intelligently but doesn't know for sure exactly how abiogenesis occurred, that is an honest scientific response but your YECer will say that “the evolutionist can't explain it therefore Zeus did it” or some equivalent nonsense. Your tag “An honest but mistaken man, once shown the truth, either ceases to be mistaken or ceases to be honest.” sums up the YECs more eloquently that I can. Iam fortunate to have the love of my biological family but you will forgive me, I hope, saying that I relish the thought of a final death with no afterlife, and that the myth of a heavenly after-match function gives me no comfort at all. Still, each to their own myths!
t8 If I understand you right, you are saying that early humans went around bashing Neandethals over the head. This is bound to have happened occasionally but surely Neanderthals were not culled into extinction. I'm not sure if I made my point well enough: Darwin said many racist things, as did nearly all europeans (including Good Christians) of the 19th century. However his theory clearly implies that all living things today are equally “well evolved” and therefore there is no heirarchy on that basis. Survival of the fittest has nothing to do with murder!
You are right, I believe, that Darwin kept his theory to himself for fear of the consequenses and was forced into publication by others who had come up with the same idea, however the deathbed recanting of it is a myth refuted by his daughter who was with him at his death. In any case, even if Darwin recanted every bit of his theory, that would not falsify it.
The explanation that I have heard many times is that early humans that are not around today couldn't compete with more advanced humans. According to theory Homo sapiens descended from Homo erectus who displaced Homo neanderthalensis and other species who descended from Homo erectus through successful competition for resources.So look at Hitler.
He also tried to displace whole races of people in order to make the Arian race rule supreme. He believed and practiced evolution. Evolution has no ethics. It is simply survival of the fittest. The weak die because the fit take their resources and the weak cannot defend themselves.
However this theory is evil. The truth is that men were created in the image of God but we have fallen because of sin. God has made it possible for each person to be forgiven and made one with God again.
God is love, he is just, and he is holy. Humans are meant to replicate these attributes. This is why we have laws and why it is unethical to kill another human.
Evolution basically says anything goes. If you are fitter, then take over all that the weak have if you desire. The problem is that human history shows that indeed people have been doing this very thing.
As Christians we believe in a higher way. The way of God is love, faith, joy, peace, long suffering, patience. If we have no faith in God, then we will never be able to embrace truth, only theories.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ July 21 2007,09:29) Hi Stu,
Is not science a poor tool for measuring life? Does science explain everything? Darwin did not offer his theory as the final answer as to cause but only raised questions as to the means of change yet it is now worshiped as undeniable fact and foundational truth. It seems men were longing for an excuse to deny creation and he became an unwilling ally.
Hi Stu.I heard this once.
Science is primarily concerned about how.
Religion is primarily concerned about who.I also give the following example as a way to understand the limitation of Science.
A believer in God and a non-believers explanation as to how a chocolate cake came to be:
The non-believer says that the primary components comprise of egg, flour, salt, sugar, and chocolate essence. These ingredients were mixed together by a force but were contained with something with walls so the substance wasn't able to escape and therefor flow everywhere resulting in no cake. These ingredients blended together and were subjected to incredible temperatures which resulted in the blended goo drying out and rising up. After the heat cooled down, there was left a dish with a chocolate cake inside.”
The believers explanation went something like this: “Who baked the cake.”
You see both were right, but one asked how, and the other asked who.
Now on first impressions it seems that the believers answer is extremely simple, but it is also beautiful and an expression of his deeper understanding that all design came from a designer.
However I think both explanations are valid and belief in God and Science can go hand in hand. I am interested in both myself.
Science = knowledge.
Con = withDid you know that your conscience is knowledge that you were born with? How did you know to breathe, how did you learn to cry? You were given knowledge before you even learned it.
We all have a conscience.
Romans 1:20
For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.Romans 2:14-15
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,
15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness,…NOTE: I take no responsibility for the cake recipe above. I can't cook.
Hi Stu,
You say
“Are you being poetic, or do you genuinely not know why we have seasons, or why our planet orbits a star, or the atmospheric conditions that give rise to rainfall?”No I do not know how the orbits of the planets are so perfectly arranged that we have rain for the crops and food for the table.
Jb 38
Job 38
1Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,2Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?
3Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
9When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,
10And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
11And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
12Hast thou commanded the morning since thy days; and caused the dayspring to know his place;
13That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, that the wicked might be shaken out of it?
14It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
15And from the wicked their light is withholden, and the high arm shall be broken.
16Hast thou entered into the springs of the sea? or hast thou walked in the search of the depth?
17Have the gates of death been opened unto thee? or hast thou seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18Hast thou perceived the breadth of the earth? declare if thou knowest it all.
19Where is the way where light dwelleth? and as for darkness, where is the place thereof,
20That thou shouldest take it to the bound thereof, and that thou shouldest know the paths to the house thereof?
21Knowest thou it, because thou wast then born? or because the number of thy days is great?
22Hast thou entered into the treasures of the snow? or hast thou seen the treasures of the hail,
23Which I have reserved against the time of trouble, against the day of battle and war?
24By what way is the light parted, which scattereth the east wind upon the earth?
25Who hath divided a watercourse for the overflowing of waters, or a way for the lightning of thunder;
26To cause it to rain on the earth, where no man is; on the wilderness, wherein there is no man;
27To satisfy the desolate and waste ground; and to cause the bud of the tender herb to spring forth?
28Hath the rain a father? or who hath begotten the drops of dew?
29Out of whose womb came the ice? and the hoary frost of heaven, who hath gendered it?
30The waters are hid as with a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen.
31Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion?
32Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?
33Knowest thou the ordinances of heaven? canst thou set the dominion thereof in the earth?
34Canst thou lift up thy voice to the clouds, that abundance of waters may cover thee?
35Canst thou send lightnings, that they may go and say unto thee, Here we are?
36Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
37Who can number the clouds in wisdom? or who can stay the bottles of heaven,
38When the dust groweth into hardness, and the clods cleave fast together?
39Wilt thou hunt the prey for the lion? or fill the appetite of the young lions,
40When they couch in their dens, and abide in the covert to lie in wait?
41Who provideth for the raven his food? when his young ones cry unto God, they wander for lack of meat.
Job 39
1Knowest thou the time when the wild goats of the rock bring forth? or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve?2Canst thou number the months that they fulfil? or knowest thou the time when they bring forth?
3They bow themselves, they bring forth their young ones, they cast out their sorrows.
4Their young ones are in good liking, they grow up with corn; they go forth, and return not unto them.
5Who hath sent out the wild ass free? or who hath loosed the bands of the wild ass?
6Whose house I have made the wilderness, and the barren land his dwellings.
7He scorneth the multitude of the city, neither regardeth he the crying of the driver.
8The range of the mountains is his pasture, and he searcheth after every green thing.
9Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib?
10Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
11Wilt thou trust him, because his strength is great? or wilt thou leave thy labour to him?
12Wilt thou believe him, that he will bring home thy seed, and gather it into thy barn?
13Gavest thou the goodly wings unto the peacocks? or wings and feathers unto the ostrich?
14Which leaveth her eggs in the earth, and warmeth them in dust,
15And forgetteth that the foot may crush them, or that the wild beast may break them.
16She is hardened against her young ones, as though they were not her's: her labour is in vain without fear;
17Because God hath deprived her of wisdom, neither hath he imparted to her understanding.
18What time she lifteth up herself on high, she scorneth the horse and his rider.
19Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?
20Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils is terrible.
21He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in his strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.
22He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.
23The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.
24He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that it is the sound of the trumpet.
25He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
26Doth the hawk fly by thy wisdom, and stretch her wings toward the south?
27Doth the eagle mount up at thy command, and make her nest on high?
28She dwelleth and abideth on the rock, upon the crag of the rock, and the strong place.
29From thence she seeketh the prey, and her eyes behold afar off.
30Her young ones also suck up blood: and where the slain are, there is she.
Rom 1
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is ble
ssed for ever. Amen.Nick!
Put down that book of scrolls for a minute and go to
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tides
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RainI think the explanations there don't require for patience of (or for) Job!
Stuart
Hi Nick,
What do you mean by lined up? All the planets or our solar system are in the same plane in space, because the matter arrived from the same direction (heavy elements from a nearby supernova) and went into orbit around our sun. Our planet and all the atoms that make up you used to be in an exploding star!
Stuart
Hi t8
I can’t agree that your analogy shows the limits of science. Science is as limited as humans are in general. There are some pretty bright scientists out there, remember! “Who baked the cake” doesn’t really explain anything, does it?
Your question about conscience is a very interesting one. How much of it is written into genes and how much of it is gained from culture? Why do you find people who utterly reject gods of any kind showing charity, kindness, love, compassion and a strong sense of right and wrong? What about the millions of humans / human ancestors who had other gods of their own? Were they immoral?
Knowing how to breathe is best explained by natural selection: if you don’t start breathing you won’t be passing on your genes.
Since you have deeper understanding of the designer, maybe you can answer a few questions for me:
Why have I got an appendix that puts me at great danger of death by peritonitis without modern medical intervention? Couldn’t that have have been worked out a bit better?
What about the nerve that starts in my head, loops down into my chest and back up into my head again, like a piece of drooping power line? How careless does that look?
Why is the top of my windpipe much lower in the oesophagus that other animals, giving me the ability to speak but putting me at great risk of choking on what I swallow. Even I can think of a better design that that.
Why is the human back so prone to aches and slipped discs?
Why does the retina face the wrong way?
What was the need to separate the brain’s neocortex from the reptilian part, thus making it more difficult to stop oneself from reacting to situations without being able to think it through first?
Why do people suffer autoimmune diseases, when the immune system attacks its own organs?
What is the point of viruses?By the way, there is a very simple and evidence-based explanation for each of these if you apply evolution by natural selection.
And while you’re explaining things, can you tell me why meta-studies of prayer (studies that are powerful because they summarise many independent studies) show that prayer has no measurable effect at all?
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2007,20:36) Hi Nick, What do you mean by lined up? All the planets or our solar system are in the same plane in space, because the matter arrived from the same direction (heavy elements from a nearby supernova) and went into orbit around our sun. Our planet and all the atoms that make up you used to be in an exploding star!
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Woweee.
So LUCKY.
Amazing.Yes Nick, a paraphrase of Carl Sagan, a man your pastor will not have mentioned to you (at least not in glowing terms!)
Carl Sagan,
on humankind:
…We are all star stuff…
… star stuff contemplating star stuff …
…The method of science is tried and true. It is not perfect, it's just the best we have. And to abandon it with its skeptical protocols is the pathway to a dark age…
…Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence…
…If you want to save your child from polio, you can pray or you can inoculate…Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 24 2007,21:08) Hi t8 I can’t agree that your analogy shows the limits of science. Science is as limited as humans are in general. There are some pretty bright scientists out there, remember! “Who baked the cake” doesn’t really explain anything, does it?
Your question about conscience is a very interesting one. How much of it is written into genes and how much of it is gained from culture? Why do you find people who utterly reject gods of any kind showing charity, kindness, love, compassion and a strong sense of right and wrong? What about the millions of humans / human ancestors who had other gods of their own? Were they immoral?
Knowing how to breathe is best explained by natural selection: if you don’t start breathing you won’t be passing on your genes.
Since you have deeper understanding of the designer, maybe you can answer a few questions for me:
Why have I got an appendix that puts me at great danger of death by peritonitis without modern medical intervention? Couldn’t that have have been worked out a bit better?
What about the nerve that starts in my head, loops down into my chest and back up into my head again, like a piece of drooping power line? How careless does that look?
Why is the top of my windpipe much lower in the oesophagus that other animals, giving me the ability to speak but putting me at great risk of choking on what I swallow. Even I can think of a better design that that.
Why is the human back so prone to aches and slipped discs?
Why does the retina face the wrong way?
What was the need to separate the brain’s neocortex from the reptilian part, thus making it more difficult to stop oneself from reacting to situations without being able to think it through first?
Why do people suffer autoimmune diseases, when the immune system attacks its own organs?
What is the point of viruses?By the way, there is a very simple and evidence-based explanation for each of these if you apply evolution by natural selection.
And while you’re explaining things, can you tell me why meta-studies of prayer (studies that are powerful because they summarise many independent studies) show that prayer has no measurable effect at all?
Stuart
Hi Stu,
Since you are unhappy with your design at least you acknowledge a design and thus a designer.Back to the question of how male/female evolved throughout the living world and what amazing coincidence led to this leap?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
