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Quote ++”Please at least attempt to answer the “why” I don't know why. Neither do you. What does “why” mean? It is a word used when a human smells a conspiracy.
When investigators are trying to figure out what happened, they do look at “how” it appeared to happen. They also ask “why” something happened. The motive (the “why”) seems to be a large piece of evidence in a lot of investigations.
The man had a knife in his heart. Did gravity do it? You can study the “how” of it quite a bit. The depth of the knife, the angle, etc. Shutting your mind to the question of “why” there is knife in his heart is not a good way to think. All that matters is the how. Maybe in your mind.Since you have no answer for the why here, you attempt to dismiss it.
++”Since you have no answer for the why here, you attempt to dismiss it.
And I succeed in dismissing it, because no-one else has any sensible answers to that particular “why” question either.
You investigation analogy does not hold because almost always knifes end up in hearts by premeditation by a criminal or a surgeon. There is a possibility that an accident has occured.
The Big Bang and evolution have nothing to do with pre-meditation. If you have evidence that they have, please show me!Stuart
Hi t8
++”So you are completely ignorant of pre-big-bang.
Name someone who isn’t.
++”So then you are not qualified to say that God didn't exist and made it all happen.
What qualification does one require to call the bluff of the Emperor’s New Clothes?
++” You cannot say that God is a myth given that you just admitted that you have NO knowledge whatsoever of what or how the Big Bang started.
So we are back to the old creationist illusion “I can’t imagine how it happened, therefore my Judeo-Christian mythological being did it.” What about Odin? Zeus? What if you’ve been led to worship the wrong imaginary friend?
++”Well I do not know what pre big bang was like either, but logic demands that something caused the Big Bang and your illogical reasoning says nothing caused the Big Bang.
If you don’t know about the pre-big bang, how on earth could you possibly know whether something “caused it”?
++”So this labeling of myths really comes from a person who is completely ignorant of pre big bang and also a person who cannot grasp that laws come from a law giver and design comes from a designer.
We’ve been over this already. Designs, by definition come from a designer. Did you grasp that the evidence very clearly says that people are NOT designed? The bible is so wrong about cosmology, biology and geography that you would have to call it mythology, a work of fiction.
++”If you saw 20 apples in a circle you could ask WHO put them there? But if I told you that WHO was irrelevant and unscientific, and that the apples fell out of a bag that way due to air currents and the angle by which they fell out of the bag, you would have the right to call me crazy. Well for that reason I call you crazy.
What on earth are you on about??
Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2007,18:17) ++”So you are completely ignorant of pre-big-bang. Name someone who isn’t.
++”So then you are not qualified to say that God didn't exist and made it all happen.
What qualification does one require to call the bluff of the Emperor’s New Clothes?
OK it is obvious that you cannot see certain possibilities. Your mind is closed. A true scientist remains open to all possibilities.You are ignorant of pre-big bang and yet you are knowledgeable because you are convinced there is no God and that nothing caused everything. You know nothing and yet you know something.
You are a contradiction. You have no knowledge and yet you can claim that certain things are so or do not exist. You are double minded in this matter and that makes your judgement unstable and contradictory.
The Emperor that wears no clothes is equable to those who try and get others to believe that nothing made an explosion and all things, DNA, life, galaxies, the spectrum, planets, elements, time and space, all came from nothing that causes the explosion.
Yeah right. Hey I call your bluff. The emperor is not wearing any clothes. Am I right?
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2007,18:17) ++”If you saw 20 apples in a circle you could ask WHO put them there? But if I told you that WHO was irrelevant and unscientific, and that the apples fell out of a bag that way due to air currents and the angle by which they fell out of the bag, you would have the right to call me crazy. Well for that reason I call you crazy. What on earth are you on about??
Precisely my point. You do not understand and yet you proudly claim to have the truth. Yet you cannot even understand a simple parable.I can't help you. Your eyes are closed.
t8
++”OK it is obvious that you cannot see certain possibilities. Your mind is closed. A true scientist remains open to all possibilities.
If you will “open my eyes” then, by outlining your falsifyable Theory of Special Creation, complete with the kinds of detailed explanations that modern science can provide, then maybe there is something to discuss. You have not actually stated the things of which I “have no knowledge” yet.
++”Precisely my point. You do not understand and yet you proudly claim to have the truth. Yet you cannot even understand a simple parable.
You are telling parables?! The parable of the Good Samaritan I understand. The “Parable of the Circle of Apples” is a total mystery to me. What are you trying to say?
The story (parable, if you like) of the Emperor's Clothes is obviously a tale about people believing enthusiastically in things for which there is no evidence. I believe in things that can be demonstrated to be true. Therefore you are not right in your reference to that story – unless you can provide evidence that my view is wrong, which you don't seem able to do.
I am open to all possibilities. I concede utterly that I could be wrong. I have been wrong many times before. I make a judgement on what is most likely to be true given the evidence. Let's say my balance of probability gives a 0.01% chance to some kind of divine creation being an explanation for the world around us (this is actually many orders of magnitude more generous than I would normally concede). Now, will you concede a 0.01% chance that you could be utterly wrong?
Stuart
Quote (t8 @ Aug. 21 2007,12:00) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 20 2007,20:36) I like to think I’m honest enough to say I don’t know about the universe pre-big bang, and I would hope you are too. Mythology gets us no close to the truth.
Come on! Theories! How did your Impetuous One split baryons and antibaryons?
To Stu.So you are completely ignorant of pre-big-bang.
So then you are not qualified to say that God didn't exist and made it all happen. That is a fact isn't it? You cannot say that God is a myth given that you just admitted that you have NO knowledge whatsoever of what or how the Big Bang started.
Well I do not know what pre big bang was like either, but logic demands that something caused the Big Bang and your illogical reasoning says nothing caused the Big Bang.
All I am saying is that you came here saying we believe in myths and yet all along you believed in the biggest myth of all, i.e., that nothing created the Big Bang and then the Big Bang exploded because of nothing at a speed that enable all that we see now and also created life which resulted in the universe being able to know itself. Wow, what a theory. Hey you know what, it is statistically more likely that 1 million dollars could come out of thin air than the universe with it's order and life could come from an explosion that nothing made happen.
Why don't you just sit at home and wait for 1 million dollars to appear. After all you believe that nothing made everything, and 1 miillion dollars appearing from nothing is more likely to happen that what has actually happened.
So this labeling of myths really comes from a person who is completely ignorant of pre big bang and also a person who cannot grasp that laws come from a law giver and design comes from a designer.
If you saw 20 apples in a circle you could ask WHO put them there? But if I told you that WHO was irrelevant and unscientific, and that the apples fell out of a bag that way due to air currents and the angle by which they fell out of the bag, you would have the right to call me crazy.
Well for that reason I call you crazy.
Right on!!!
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2007,18:17) Hi t8 ++”So you are completely ignorant of pre-big-bang.
Name someone who isn’t.
But you see, the main difference here is faith and a false hope.Just thought of something!!! That would be a good title for a novel. Lol.
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 21 2007,18:17) ++”If you saw 20 apples in a circle you could ask WHO put them there? But if I told you that WHO was irrelevant and unscientific, and that the apples fell out of a bag that way due to air currents and the angle by which they fell out of the bag, you would have the right to call me crazy. Well for that reason I call you crazy. What on earth are you on about??
Stuart
Now, Stu….I think you know what were talking about here….
^_^OK. Here’s my best go. Let me know how I got on.
The parable of the Circle of Apples is a bizarre version of the Argument from Design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley
has the background to probably the most famous exponent of the argument from design,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_design
gives a lot of background on several topic covered here recently,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
has a discussion similar to points I have made about the incompetence of the “designer”.http://www.theshrubbery.com/udn/
puts it more simply…Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 23 2007,22:02) OK. Here’s my best go. Let me know how I got on. The parable of the Circle of Apples is a bizarre version of the Argument from Design.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Paley
has the background to probably the most famous exponent of the argument from design,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_design
gives a lot of background on several topic covered here recently,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
has a discussion similar to points I have made about the incompetence of the “designer”.http://www.theshrubbery.com/udn/
puts it more simply…Stuart
So now you claim to know what I was saying.So you figured it out all by yourself.
So yes, design in any form means there was a designer.
Or you could just continue with the religion that says that houses build themselves, which is what I suspect you will do. But I don't mind if you prove me wrong on that.
Hi t8
++”Or you could just continue with the religion that says that houses build themselves, which is what I suspect you will do. But I don't mind if you prove me wrong on that.
Now come on t8, you were the one talking about houses building themselves. I said that I didn't think houses built themselves. Why do you say that I do? Are you telling another parable? The Parable of the House that Built Itself?
Did you read the links about the argument from design and the argument from poor design? Have you forned an opinion on these ideas?
It doesn't matter which analogy you make, the house, the car, the meat grinder, the apples, a watch,… NONE of them are relevant because NONE of them are self-replicating. None of these things produce offspring that may inherit mutated genes.Stuart
Quote (Stu @ Aug. 26 2007,00:46) Hi t8 ++”Or you could just continue with the religion that says that houses build themselves, which is what I suspect you will do. But I don't mind if you prove me wrong on that.
Now come on t8, you were the one talking about houses building themselves. I said that I didn't think houses built themselves. Why do you say that I do? Are you telling another parable? The Parable of the House that Built Itself?
You missed the point completely.Scientists are always right.
This is true…until they are wrong.
How many times in history have scientists been right until proven wrong?
Take the age of the universe for example. It changes all the time. Yet if you argue with any of them when they believed they had the right date, then they would dismiss your opinion based on their superior knowledge.
But history is a good teacher. Not many learn the lessons of history however. Looking at the big picture, it is a bit daft to say the universe is exactly this age. Or monkeys and humans share a common ancestor as opposed to common code. Or the earth is flat until it is proven to be otherwise.
It is also daft to say that everything came from nothing. That is pure stupidity and no amount of mathematical equations, theories, and fossils will change it from being stupidity and ignorance.
copy and past
writen by Einstein
“God does not play dice”
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of divine will exists as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in which scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot.
But I am convinced that such behavior on the part of representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress. In their struggle for the ethical good, teachers of religion must have the stature to give up the doctrine of a personal God, that is, give up that source of fear and hope which in the past placed such vast power in the hands of priests. In their labors they will have to avail themselves of those forces which are capable of cultivating the Good, the True, and the Beautiful in humanity itself. This is, to be sure, a more difficult but an incomparably more worthy task …
Would you be surprised to know that millions of scientists around the world do not blindly accept Darwin’s THEORY of evolution? Would it shock you to know that many of these professors and researchers are not religious, but they embrace the theory of Intelligent Design, which holds that our intricate universe could not have come about by chance? Would it blow you away to find that Albert Einstein was one of them?Quote (Stu @ Aug. 23 2007,17:03) Hi acertainchap, faith and a false hope
It's the same thing, isn't it?
Stuart:D
All belief is based on faith whether in scripture or in science, both have had their share of errors through misinterpreting of facts.I believe with full knowledge of both they would be in perfect harmony.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ Aug. 27 2007,16:16) Quote (Stu @ Aug. 23 2007,17:03) Hi acertainchap, faith and a false hope
It's the same thing, isn't it?
Stuart:D
All belief is based on faith whether in scripture or in science, both have had their share of errors through misinterpreting of facts.I believe with full knowledge of both they would be in perfect harmony.
My opinion – Wm
Seeking – what you have said is deep!I have told my friend who believes in evolution that it takes just as much faith to believe we came from a Big Bang as it takes to believe we were created!
Faith is not false hope. Without faith there would be no hope.
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