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Quote (Stu @ Aug. 03 2007,18:47) Hi kejonn ++”Are you trying to say inorganic substances are subject to evolutionary processes?
Did I?
++”Cop out.
I'm sorry, what is a cop out?
When the cop says “out” on the radio
.Quote ++”All I can do is relate my experiences. What experience have you had that gives you unshakeable knowledge of the existence of something for which there is no objective evidence? Can you actually think of one thing that I take on faith alone?
Stuart
I have no objective evidence that I will wake tomorrow. Yet I still plan my day with the expectation that I will.The difference between you and I is that I don't have to have objective evidence for everything. I choose how to live my life and my faith enables me to have a fuller life. If that does not work for you, that's great. Whatever makes you happy is what counts, as long as you don't harm others. You lack of belief should harm no one.
Hi kejonn
++”I have no objective evidence that I will wake tomorrow. Yet I still plan my day with the expectation that I will.
Just like there is evidence for the sun rising each morning, you have plenty of evidence that you will wake tomorrow. The fact that you have woken every morning so far is evidence. There is every reason for it happening. There is no need for faith.
Eventually it will come to all of us one day that we are no longer able to wake up, but there will have been evidence of the coming event even if we didn't know it at the time. No one dies for no reason.
++”The difference between you and I is that I don't have to have objective evidence for everything. I choose how to live my life and my faith enables me to have a fuller life.
My point is that you do have objective evidence for everything, except your reasonless faith in an Imaginary Friend, and so far you have failed to provide an example of something that doesn't for me.
I accept your claim that your faith enables a fuller life for you. I claim the reverse, for me a life lived in the shadow of an unpredictably violent and incompetent fictional character would impoverish the fantastic experience I enjoy for these brief moments alive on Earth.
Stuart
Stu,
I'm curious, if you really believe what you just said to KJ, then why are you here on this site? A site dedicated to imaginary friends and violent, incompetant fictional character's?
Hi Stu.
I've been so busy. you wrote:
Quote Hi David, I have had trouble keeping up with the screeds you posted. Would you mind if we deal with issues just a few at a time? Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
And later:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
The lights referred to in Gen 1:14 must include the sun and moon, for these are the only celestial objects that define the days, seasons, and years.
Was Earth in orbit around the sun before the sun was created?
The earth started out as a disk of dust from a nearby supernova that went into orbit around our sun then coalesced into a ball large enough to become spherical under its own gravity.Did he create light before he created the object that produces light?
God created day, night, evening and morning before there was a sun?
Not very compatible with common sense, let alone science, is it?!
As I said:
Actually, the evidence and the Bible agree perfectly. It is human understanding how they tend to interpret things [meaning the Bible] that is horribly bad.
For example. People see the word “day” and traditionally assume it means a 24 hour day, when the Bible itself lumps all these days into one “day.” And then there's the fact that in numerous other places, we're told that we're still in seventh day, it hasn't ended. We can't just look at the word “day” and ignore all the other evidence that doesn't fit with what we want to believe.As I said: “to be remembered, the Genesis account was not written to show the “how” of creation. Rather, it covers major events in a progressive way, . . . . When examining the Genesis account, it is helpful to keep in mind that it approaches matters from the standpoint of people on earth. So it describes events as they would have been seen by human observers had they been present. This can be noted from its treatment of events on the fourth Genesis “day.” There the sun and moon are described as great luminaries in comparison to the stars. Yet many stars are far greater than our sun, and the moon is insignificant in comparison to them. But not to an earthly observer. So, as seen from the earth, the sun appears to be a ‘greater light that rules the day’ and the moon a ‘lesser light that dominates the night.’—Genesis 1:14-18.
So, basing our thinking on what the account actually says, and not on assumptions, it is clear that the account describes events as though they would have been seen from a human observer, on earth.
You keep mentioning the evening and morning. God’s work started at “evening,” when the dim outline of his activity began to appear, and continued through to “morning,” when all of his glorious accomplishment became clearly apparent. We do occasionally hear phrases such as the “evening of his life” etc showing that these words can be and are sometimes used in other ways.
It should also be mentioned that the Hebrews counted their day as commencing in the evening and running until the following sunset.Looking at what you wrote:
Quote Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Call this the big bang if you like.“Now the earth proved to be formless and waste and there was darkness upon the surface of [the] watery deep.” (Gen 2:2)
Focusing in on the earth, we see it was formless and waste, with a thick atmosphere.“Then there came to be light.” (Gen 1:3)
THIS DOESN'T MEAN THE LIGHT OR LIGHT SOURCE WAS CREATED AT THIS POINT. IT MEANS THE ATMOSPHERE THINNED, AND LIGHT became visible on the earth, shining on the earth.
This is the conclusion we must draw based on what is said. (See the underlined and bold portion above, where we are shown that this is the only conclusion we can draw.)
What was started in one period (day) did not have to be fully completed when the next period began. To illustrate, light gradually began to appear on the first “day,” yet it was not until the fourth creative period that the sun, moon, and stars could have been discerned.—Genesis 1:14-19.Let's look at this again:
(1) a beginning;
(2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water;
(3) light;
(4) an expanse or atmosphere;
(5) large areas of dry land;
(6) land plants;
(7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning;
(8) sea monsters and flying creatures;
(9) wild and tame beasts, mammals;
(10) man.************
Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order.
************And what are the chances that the writer of Genesis just guessed this order?
1 in 3,628,800!
You accuse me of not using common sense. Is it common sense to believe that someone guessed this order correctly thousands of years ago?
To say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.We cannot just interpret the scriptures in the way we want to support what we want to believe. I believe this account itself, makes it clear that we must look at this simply from the perspective of someone who would have witnessed these things from the earth, from an observer. It's not a science book, and it's written very simply, yet somehow, it got these things right.
Remember, it wasn't until just recently in history that science finally caught up with the Bible and realized that the universe even had a beginning!Also, it could be mentioned that the first verse opens with impressive simplicity: “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.”
This could be billions of years ago. There is no time frame mentioned here. THEN, the account continues on to give a general account of the creative work relative to the earth.david.
evolution is imposible just look around at all the wonderfull things god made,we have the truth god made it all,he said let it be ,and it was ,then he said it was good.for only good can come out of the father.yet many believe mens theries,rather than god,how sad ,god said it all yet men are even blind to the simpleest truths,yet then agian you can prove mens theory wrong thru there own science,just do a carbon study on how much falls from the atmosefere and you can clearly see the earth is not as old as men asume,thru there theorys, if one day is as a thoudsand years and god made it in a week with resting then thats 7000 years,plus all bible time so maybe the world is about 13000 years old,not millions.hmmm
Geologist Wallace Pratt commented:
“If I as a geologist were called upon to explain briefly our modern ideas of the origin of the earth and the development of life on it to a simple, pastoral people, such as the tribes to whom the Book of Genesis was addressed, I could hardly do better than follow rather closely much of the language of the first chapter of Genesis.”
How did Moses—thousands of years ago—get that order right if his source of information were not from the Creator and Designer himself?
Back to Stu's question.
How could God produce light on the first day if the luminaries were not made until the fourth day?
The Hebrew word rendered “make” in verse 16 is not the same as the word for “create” used in Genesis chapter 1, verses 1, 21, and 27. “The heavens” that included the luminaries were created long before the “first day” even began.
But as I explained in my previous post, we have to understand that their light did not reach the surface of the earth.On the first day, “there came to be light” because diffused light penetrated the cloud layers and became visible on the earth. The rotating earth thus began to have alternating day and night. (Genesis 1:1-3, 5) The sources of that light still remained invisible from the earth. During the fourth creative period, however, a notable change took place. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) “God proceeded to make” them in that they could now be seen from the earth.
Hi Not3In1
++”I'm curious, if you really believe what you just said to KJ, then why are you here on this site? A site dedicated to imaginary friends and violent, incompetant fictional character's?
The question posed by t8 to start this thread was “Do you believe the theory of Evolution to be true?”
Not many contributing seem to be able to actually defend their mythological viewpoint, which is fine, but many make false claims about science and evolution. I care about the truth.Stuart
Interesting answer.
What brought you here, though, to a Christian site? Are you a Christian who believes in evolution?David
++”Let's look at this again:
(1) a beginning;
(2) a primitive earth in darkness and enshrouded in heavy gases and water;
(3) light;
(4) an expanse or atmosphere;
(5) large areas of dry land;
(6) land plants;
(7) sun, moon and stars discernible in the expanse, and seasons beginning;
(8) sea monsters and flying creatures;
(9) wild and tame beasts, mammals;
(10) man.
Science agrees that these stages occurred in this general order.David, from your list, science disagrees with:
Earth before sun.
Earth before seasons.
Gases before atmosphere.
Light before sun and stars.
Plants before sun.
If tame means domesticated, then tame beasts before man.++”To say the writer just happened to list the foregoing events in the right order without getting the facts from somewhere is not realistic.
Could be, but he got it in the wrong order. Maybe the best explanation is that Genesis is just another creation myth like the ones found in all religions.
Stuart
Hi Not3In1
++”What brought you here, though, to a Christian site? Are you a Christian who believes in evolution?
No, I have a naturalist philosophy of life and like to live and let live except when people try and tell me that their fictional beliefs would be good for me, or tell lies or show their fundamental ignorance about the achievements of science over the millennia. Hence an interest in the bizarre ideas some on this forum have about origins and evolution (no doubt told to them by pastors and other charletans).
Stuart
++”On the first day, “there came to be light” because diffused light penetrated the cloud layers and became visible on the earth. The rotating earth thus began to have alternating day and night. (Genesis 1:1-3, 5) The sources of that light still remained invisible from the earth. During the fourth creative period, however, a notable change took place. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) “God proceeded to make” them in that they could now be seen from the earth.
David this is absurd nonsense. There is no light without stars. Even your torch or the glow from radioactive decay is a result of energy that originated in a star.
Stuart
David
I forgot to include in the previous post:
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
1:15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
1:16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, “And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth.
1:18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
This is all after the creation of light and darkness(!). Unquestionably. There is no way you can use the KJV to make your interpretation. I don't understand Hebrew and you may well be right about original texts, but you have utterly falsifiled the English language Judeo-Christian book if you insist on your version of Genesis.
Stuart
++”evolution is imposible just look around at all the wonderfull things god made,we have the truth god made it all,he said let it be ,and it was ,then he said it was good.for only good can come out of the father.yet many believe mens theries,rather than god,how sad ,god said it all yet men are even blind to the simpleest truths,yet then agian you can prove mens theory wrong thru there own science,just do a carbon study on how much falls from the atmosefere and you can clearly see the earth is not as old as men asume,thru there theorys, if one day is as a thoudsand years and god made it in a week with resting then thats 7000 years,plus all bible time so maybe the world is about 13000 years old,not millions.hmmm
Hi michaels
I wonder if you would be able to explain in the words of a scientist what the theory of evolution by natural selection actually says? I am interested to know if you understand the thing you reject.
Stuart
Quote David, from your list, science disagrees with: Earth before sun.
Earth before seasons.
Gases before atmosphere.
Light before sun and stars.
Plants before sun.
If tame means domesticated, then tame beasts before man.I'm sorry STU, but I don't know that you read any of my post.
Where did I say: “earth before sun.”
Notice “(1) a beginning.”
Remember when I said you may call this your big bang if you like, which happened untold billions of years ago.
If I said:“In the beginning (of my life), built a house. I laid the foundation of the house and then I ….”
The first sentence is a large overview. Then, I become more specific.
You keep saying that the the Bible says the earth existed before the sun. If you were to read my comments we know the Bible doesn't indicate this. Check the underlined portion if you don't have time to read it all, or don't care to know what it actually says.david.
Quote ++”On the first day, “there came to be light” because diffused light penetrated the cloud layers and became visible on the earth. The rotating earth thus began to have alternating day and night. (Genesis 1:1-3, 5) The sources of that light still remained invisible from the earth. During the fourth creative period, however, a notable change took place. The sun, the moon, and the stars were now made “to shine upon the earth.” (Genesis 1:17) “God proceeded to make” them in that they could now be seen from the earth. David this is absurd nonsense. There is no light without stars. Even your torch or the glow from radioactive decay is a result of energy that originated in a star.
Yes, stu, there's no light without stars. How does that have anything to do with what I said?
If you stand in your closet, it's dark. No light. I open the door and there is light. It doesn't mean the light was created that second.Please refer back to may repeated mentionings of how this is how an earth observer would list things.
Stu Many Scientist have begun to believe in a God, WITH THE THINGS THAT ARE SEEN. Take the Human Eye for instance, it is so perfect, Creation Period, is perfect in every way. There was an Article about the Human eye, how delicate it is and what a perfect design it is, in the National Geographic. You really belief that can happen with a bang, common sense tells me differently. Creation is Human, to Human, Dog to Dog, etc. How come you don't see half ape and half Humans running around? It is because there is a Creator behind all of creation, which We call God? He keeps everything in check. The Bible has been proven to be right, with past History events. Human Life is so short, to belief to live without hope for the future to me is so fruitless. Do you believe in good and evil? If so who created that? Did that happen with a bang. Atheist assume a lot. And to come here on a CHRISTIAN SITE shows me that you must have an interest of what we have to say about God, why bother if you don't belief, or maybe you want somebody to show you that you are wrong.
Mrs.IM4TruthHi IM4Truth
++”Stu Many Scientist have begun to believe in a God, WITH THE THINGS THAT ARE SEEN. Take the Human Eye for instance, it is so perfect, Creation Period, is perfect in every way. There was an Article about the Human eye, how delicate it is and what a perfect design it is, in the National Geographic. You really belief that can happen with a bang, common sense tells me differently. Creation is Human, to Human, Dog to Dog, etc. How come you don't see half ape and half Humans running around? It is because there is a Creator behind all of creation, which We call God? He keeps everything in check. The Bible has been proven to be right, with past History events. Human Life is so short, to belief to live without hope for the future to me is so fruitless. Do you believe in good and evil? If so who created that? Did that happen with a bang. Atheist assume a lot. And to come here on a CHRISTIAN SITE shows me that you must have an interest of what we have to say about God, why bother if you don't belief, or maybe you want somebody to show you that you are wrong.
Mrs.IM4TruthIf you have the time, please go back and read my previous posts. I have already addressed your objections, except the one about good and evil. I think it was A4J (?) who pointed out the low imprisonment rates for atheists compared to the religious.
Stuart
Stu,
Which post are you speaking of as far as religious versus atheists in prison? And did these people “find religion” in prison, or did they go in with it? There IS a difference
.Hi kejonn
++”Which post are you speaking of as far as religious versus atheists in prison? And did these people “find religion” in prison, or did they go in with it? There IS a difference
I'm sorry I can't find a reference for it.
My understanding was that rates of imprisonment for those who start out as non-believers are lower than for believers in many places.What is of concern is the frequency with which some jurisdictions give favour to those prisoners who “find god” in some way. Surely all should be equal in the eyes of the law.
Stuart
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