Discussion on Jehovah/God as the Son

[Lightenup]

Here is where ya'll can discuss the other thread which is about Jehovah as the Son scriptural database.

found here:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….;t=3904

[Proclaimer]

Let's look at what you believe.

Jehovah = God of gods x Lord of lords.
God of gods is the Father
Lord of lords is Jesus.

Simple deduction from what you teach here is that Jesus is not God, but Lord.

Have you come full circle on this, or am I not understanding you correctly because I seem to remember when you were teaching that Jesus was God.

I am confused about where you stand now. You seem to be contradicting your earlier statements.

[Proclaimer]

Any appearance of YHWH is a servant or messenger of YHWH as he is invisible.

E.g., He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
Or, There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.

Notice the words OF. Of has a specific meaning that some like to ignore.

E.g., if you are OF God, does that make you God? No. Likewise the image of the invisible God or the Messenger of the LORD is/are not God.

So Jesus is not God just because he represents God or gives the message from God.

Confirmation of this statement can be seen in Revelation 1:1.

The revelation came from God but was given to Christ, then to the Angel and to John, who passed it onto the churches.
So yes it is God speaking, but through his agency.

Once a person grasps this, then confusion about YHWH and him being invisible and the statement in the New Testament that no man can see him, is fully understood. And all doctrines that espouse that there is more than one person who is the Most High, are easily seen as false, especially when they include a person who is very visible.

1 John 4:12
No one has ever seen God ….

1 Timothy 1:17
Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever.
Amen.

1 Timothy 6:16
who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.

John 6:46
No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.

John 1:18
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Therefore, anyone who teaches that YHWH is visible is a direct contradiction of John and Paul's teachings quoted above.

[Lightenup]

t8
Jesus is THE image, not 'an' image.  

Quote

E.g., if you are OF God, does that make you God? No. Likewise the image of the invisible God or the Messenger of the LORD is/are not God.

You are incorrect…replace the word God with 'man.'
If you are 'of' man, does that make you man…yes.

Genesis 5:3 NAS
When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

t8, what was the one that was according to Adam's image in the above verse?  A man-child perhaps?

Can we stick to the LORD, Lord, lord thread for the time being, t8.  I am short on time nowadays.

Btw, my equation does not include a multiplication sign but an addition sign so when you are quoting it, please just quote it the way I have it.

Jehovah our God = God of gods+Lord of lords

Thanks,
Kathi

[Lightenup]

t8,

Quote

Therefore, anyone who teaches that YHWH is visible is a direct contradiction of John and Paul's teachings quoted above.

I am not teaching that.  The Son can make appearances to represent YHVH and still no one has seen the fullness of YHVH, both Father and Son together, nor have they seen the Father alone.   The scriptures never say that no one has seen the Son.

Can your next posts just go here if you want to quote me or ask me about anything along this topic:
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y305765

I have already answered some of the same above comments there.

Kathi

[terraricca]

Kathi

Pay attention to those verses,witch one would apply to your way of thinking ?

Ge 12:7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your offspring I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Ge 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless.

Ge 18:1 The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day.
Ge 26:2 The LORD appeared to Isaac and said, “Do not go down to Egypt; live in the land where I tell you to live.
Ge 26:24 That night the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am the God of your father Abraham. Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bless you and will increase the number of your descendants for the sake of my servant Abraham.”
Ex 3:2 There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up.
Lev 9:23 Moses and Aaron then went into the Tent of Meeting. When they came out, they blessed the people; and the glory of the LORD appeared to all the people.
Nu 14:10 But the whole assembly talked about stoning them. Then the glory of the LORD appeared at the Tent of Meeting to all the Israelites.
Nu 16:19 When Korah had gathered all his followers in opposition to them at the entrance to the Tent of Meeting, the glory of the LORD appeared to the entire assembly.
Nu 16:42 But when the assembly gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron and turned toward the Tent of Meeting, suddenly the cloud covered it and the glory of the LORD appeared.
Nu 20:6 Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the Tent of Meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the LORD appeared to them.
Dt 31:15 Then the LORD appeared at the Tent in a pillar of cloud, and the cloud stood over the entrance to the Tent.
Jdg 6:12 When the angel of the LORD appeared to Gideon, he said, “The LORD is with you, mighty warrior.”
Jdg 13:3 The angel of the LORD appeared to her and said, “You are sterile and childless, but you are going to conceive and have a son.
1Ki 3:5 At Gibeon the LORD appeared to Solomon during the night in a dream, and God said, “Ask for whatever you want me to give you.”
1Ki 9:2 the LORD appeared to him a second time, as he had appeared to him at Gibeon.
2Ch 7:12 the LORD appeared to him at night and said:
“I have heard your prayer and have chosen this place for myself as a temple for sacrifices.
Jer 31:3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, saying:
“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.
Mt 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.

Mt 2:13 When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”

Mt 2:19 After Herod died, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt
Lk 1:11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him, standing at the right side of the altar of incense.
Lk 2:9 An angel of the Lord appeared to them, and the glory of the Lord shone around them, and they were terrified.
Ac 12:7 Suddenly an angel of the Lord appeared and a light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the side and woke him up. “Quick, get up!” he said, and the chains fell off Peter’s wrists

they all are appearances to men from the part of God, is there anything from your view ?

Pierre

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2011,11:05)

t8 Jesus is THE image, not 'an' image.

Please point out where I said he was an image. Because I agree that he is the image. The full expression. Where did I say “an image”?

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2011,11:05)

You are incorrect…replace the word God with 'man.' If you are 'of' man, does that make you man…yes. Genesis 5:3 NAS When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth.

LU, you clearly show a misunderstanding between identity and nature. From what I can tell, this is a root cause for false teaching about God. The Trinitarians also have no concept of the difference.

The context that you are using man in your post is in nature and yes that is correct. Likewise theos can be expressed this way too and that is correct too.

But if you were referring to Adam (The first man) then you couldn't say that Eve or Seth were Adam (the first man). Likewise, The Father is the Most High God and the only true God. The Father has exclusivity here just as Adam did in his domain.

To add other members to the identity of the one who originated the nature, is wrong. You have to switch identifying the person and start talking about nature or quality from that person before you can talk in such a way.

Is it really that difficult to understand how scripture or Greek treats this? There is one God the Father and qualitatively speaking there are others who are called theos for varying reasons that could include nature, character, and authority. There is also one Adam who we identify as the first man and yet when we talk qualitatively, there are many who are called adam/man including you and me. See that, we both agree that we are not Adam, but that we are adam or mankind.

I personally think that a person who cannot grasp how scripture uses theos, adam, or devil to identify a particular person or being and teach that such a being or person can have other members added is wrong, unless they switch to the qualitative usage of the word.  But nether yourself or most Trinitarians do this. You somehow blur the line between identifying a particualr person and their nature. So that what is true in nature is attributed to the person, so that we become Adam the first man, or Jesus or us become God, the Mosth High God.

I didn't make this up. It is a fact that scripture uses these words in these ways. I am just observing this fact and watching all these people stumble over this as if they cannot see it.

Remember when Jesus said Judas was a devil? Well I can tell you here an now he wasn't saying that he was Satan himself, he used the word not to identify him as the Devil rather as one having the qualities of the Devil. A perfect example of how this and other words have a qualitative usage.

[Lightenup]

t8,
When we see the word 'theos,' it can mean different things. The highest meaning, imo, would apply only to the person or persons who have always existed. I believe that two always existed, the Father and the Son. The Son existed within the Father and was begotten from the Father which would make the Father greater in position but not in nature. I believe they both always existed because Jehovah has always been all sufficient and has never been less than sufficient. Creation belongs to both the Father and the Son, salvation belongs to both the Father and the Son. Both together form the sufficiency of Jehovah to do the 'God size' tasks of creation and salvation, etc. imo. Therefore, I believe that both would be Theos, capital T or God, capital G. One Theos is the God of gods and one Theos is the Lord of lords and together they complete each other to form one all sufficient and always existent unity called Jehovah, the one authority/ God over all creation.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Quote (t8 @ Aug. 03 2011,00:45)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 03 2011,11:05) t8 Jesus is THE image, not 'an' image. Please point out where I said he was an image. Because I agree that he is the image. The full expression. Where did I say “an image”?

t8,

I was only pointing out that Christ is THE image…not others. It wasn't about you saying that He was 'an' image, I was just emphasizing the point. Sorry for the confusion.

Kathi

[Lightenup]

Pierre,
Those are all good verses, thanks for putting them up. From a quick glance, I would say that the LORD was appearing as the Son, the spokesperson of Jehovah, representing the unity of Him and His Father. I didn't do any thorough study of most of them, though.

God bless,
Kathi

[Proclaimer]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2011,12:13)

I would say that the LORD was appearing as the Son

Appearing as the son?
This opens the way for him to appear as a donkey too.

Kathi. God speaks through these vessels.
It was never meant to be taken that he is these vessels.

[Proclaimer]

Kathi,

How do you refute the following?

“The head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God.”

When identifying these, the woman is not the man and Christ is not God.
That is why they are all mentioned.

In nature, yes the woman and man are mankind, and Christ and God are divine.
And Christ partook of human nature and we can partake of divine nature.

But this verse is identifying them as individuals.
God > Christ > Man > Woman

How do you intend to get away with your doctrine in the light of this truth?

See how God is different to Christ, just as the woman is different to man?

[terraricca]

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 05 2011,19:13)

Pierre, Those are all good verses, thanks for putting them up.  From a quick glance, I would say that the LORD was appearing as the Son, the spokesperson of Jehovah, representing the unity of Him and His Father.  I didn't do any thorough study of most of them, though. God bless, Kathi

Kathi

it was angels that spears to them not God or Christ

you like what is not clear why do you create mud??

Pierre

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