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Hi wwb,
Gen 1.11 says
” Then God said 'Let the earth bring forth vegetation;every kind of plant THAT BEARS SEED
and every kind of fruit tree on earth that BEARS FRUIT WITH IT'S SEED IN IT. And so it happened “
These exact plants were created.So God is very specific here.
Only self replicating things were created.
And only those that do not need insects or birds to pollinate them. The spread of plants is another issue but God can cause them to be scattered by wind or tide.Do you agree?
yes, i do agree that plants are able to spread in such a way, though it is not possible for all such plants to do so in these ways. the wind can only blow an apple so far from its tree. (concerning how specific God was, unfortunately, there are other possibilities, i will explain further down a ways) there are many other factors, though, that would be necessary to sustain an enviornment with plants, that could not be duplicated without other forms of life to contribute. not that this is out of reach of God, only that to say that God did not create the Earth and all that there is in 7 days, is not only more unecessary, but seems to be a way for people to let evolution into the mind of God. because you cannot mix truth, with anything else, just to get half-truths. the point i would like to make, though, is that for people to say that the Bible's 7 days of creation aren't exactly that, 7 days, but 7000 years, can lead to people trying to mix in the theories of evolution or other godless ideas into other scriptures. and this can lead people away from the truth, which is a very sad thing. Could God have created all that there is in 7000 years? yes, i know that He could. He could do so in 7 seconds if He wished. what i believe is wrong, however, is when people try to change the meanings of scripture to help 'merge' non-scriptural ideas into the Word of God. sorry if this offends anyone, i may not be explaining myself as best i could, so please do not be offended. on a side note, when you said 'self replicating' in your last post, could you please clarify? certain plants are self replicating, as in they can pollenate themselves. but not every seed bearing plant is self replicating. infact, when it comes to the definition of a seed, you need to remember that within ourselves we too have seeds. when a male gamete cell fertilizes a females gamete 'egg' you produce a single zygote with the capabilites (and dna information) to create a single whole organism (providing that all genetic information is intact). so in a sense, you could define a seed as being a single cell (intact with a full set of dna) capable of growing into a full grown organism. finally, when you say God created only the plants that did not require the assistance of bugs or insects to help pollenate them, when would He have created the rest of the plants we have today, which do not 'require' (directly) the assitance of animals or insects to spread them? it is hard to determine, for when it comes to classifying certain organisms as plants and animals, where would a fungi be placed? and smaller organims like bacteria or the rest of the kingdom protista? heh, this is all very interesting, and i really do enjoy your comments.
hi wwb,
Well there were no birds on the third day-they were only created on the fifth day with the fish. God specified 'plants' and 'fruit trees' so that would exclude animals. It would suggest that only those that were not in need of insect or bird help were created though God could have used angels or other means.
The earthly creepy crawlies only arrived the sixth day and perhaps that included the bacteria maybe? So birds and insects were not about so God had to make them self replicating at that stage did He not?
Spread is not an immediate issue is it?
Evolution is nonsense but there is no way we can limit God in His means of creation. He can do what he wishes and I am sure he taunts the eggheads with hints of evolution to allow them to take the wrong path if they have no faith?it doesn't seem to be so much of a 'no faith' issue, but more of a rebellion against the nature of God. which, in a sense, is even worse.
True,
Darwin must be rolling over in his grave that the theory he admitted had holes in it is now taught as fact. Nothing living has ever developed a more complicated and more effective genetic basis. No creature has ever changed into another species.Quote (wishywashyboy @ Dec. 22 2004,20:49) without animals, how could plants survive? plants require CO2 to generate their food, through the process' which most plants require, in an anaerobic state.
Yes plants breathe in CO2 and breathe out O2 (photosynthesis). But at night, they breathe in O2 and breathe out CO2, a process called respiration. Basically, at night plants breathe like animals.I have even heard of cases where sleeping among a lot of plants in a closed room at night not being a good idea for those with breathing problems. I have also heard about fish at night, gasping for O2 in fish tanks that are laden with plants.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 22 2004,05:25) I am sure he taunts the eggheads with hints of evolution to allow them to take the wrong path if they have no faith?
Do you really believe God would set out to decieve and lead people away from the truth?!Yes,
2Thess 2.9f ” This lawless one will appear as part of the workings of Satan, accompanied by all the signs and wonders at the disposal of falsehood-by every seduction the wicked can devise for those destined to ruin because they have not opened their hearts to the truth in order to be saved. THEREFORE GOD IS SENDING UPON THEM A PERVERSE SPIRIT WHICH LEADS THEM TO GIVE CREDENCE TO FALSEHOOD, so that all who have not believed the truth but have delighted in evildoing will be condemned”
Rom 1.22f has a similar sense.ps You must understand that God says no one has any excuse for not believing in Him through the things He has made[rom 1.18f] so to not to do so in His eyes is to reject Him and rebel against Him. He says everyone has knowledge of Him but some refuse to thank or glorify Him as the creator.
He allows the appropriate punishment in that they come to absolutely believe the opposite [their minds are darkened and they give credence to lies and descend ever further into sin]and thus cause themselves to utterly earn His condemnation.
God is God.
We cannot judge His ways as they are not our ways.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 23 2004,08:58) ps You must understand that God says no one has any excuse for not believing in Him through the things He has made[rom 1.18f]
With these words you contradict yourselfIf God had deliberately created the world, or allowed His creation, to 'look evolved', then evolutionists would have an excuse for not believing in Him, now wouldn't they. And Romans 1, and yourself, would be in error
Hi Guest,
It is all a matter of perception though is it not? Nothing looks evolved to me and everything has developed out of slime to some others. Others yet may say 'it looks as though evolution is true but I believe it is not because I believe in a creator'.God says nobody has any excuse for not knowing about Him. To know about Him should be followed by acceptance of the revealed truth about Him in the bible or through preaching and obedience to his Son.
God is not responsible for our initial individual decisions based on our perceptions though is He, but if we do not choose the path of belief in Him He will allow further deception? The positive side is the further man progresses into sin the more hope that he will realise he is a sinner and repent.
I believe it also says somewhere in the bible that God allows prayers to idols to be answered so that those who pray to them are further deceived in the same way.
first of all, you are correct, plants do undergo a non-light reaction, this is the dark phase of photosynthesis. just on a side note, you called this reaction respiration, please do be specific, as in scientific terms, respiration is infact all the processes in the break down of food to realease energy. this is where the atp molecules come in. continuing, as i said earlier, there are reactions in plants that do not require light to produce energy, i will now emphasize. it is impossible for almost all plant species to live utilizing these non-light processes, for the energy produced is a mere fraction compared to the amount of energy produced through the light reactions of photosynthesis. this ratio is 1/16, or two atp molecules to all 32 atp molecules produced in the light phase. now, thanks to your ealier post, i have remembered a very important fact. these two reactions, dark and light, are reliant upon each other to continue. without one, the other will stop completely. all of the products produced by the light phase are either given off, or are used by the dark phase of photosynthesis. without the light phase, the dark phase would not have the necessary components to continue. the light phase is also dependant upon its conterpartnering dark phase. without the dark phase of photosynthesis, the by-products(specefically the transport molecules attatched with hydrogen and electrons) would cause a hault to photosynthesis. *another side note you might like knowing, is that the dark phase of photosynthesis actually takes place at all times, even during the daytime. only, unlike the photo phase, it does not require energy from the electro magnetic spectrum, directly that is. it is, however, dependent upon the products of the lightphase* this all shows how intricate God's design was built into nature, and how all that he created is dependent upon one another to continue living.
Quote (wishywashyboy @ Dec. 24 2004,20:04) please do be specific, as in scientific terms, respiration is infact all the processes in the break down of food to realease energy
It appears that 'plant respiration' is an excepted term used in the scientific community to describe the dark phase of plants as opposed to the day phase.Try this interesting article. You need to ignore the taken for granted evolutionary stuff, but the findings themself are interesting.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2004/07/040723093305.htmI also quote the following regarding Plant Respiration:
Plants, like all other living organisms, need to make use of stored chemical energy in order to perform their life functions — to grow, to transport nutrients, to reproduce, and to protect themselves. They do this all the time, using free oxygen from the air and use the sugars that they have stored inside to make carbon dioxide and water. Sounds backwards from what a plant ought to be doing! Plants are special in that they also perform an almost reverse reaction, that of converting carbon dioxide and water and other nutrients found in the soil into sugars plus oxygen, via photosynthesis, aided by the molecule chlorophyll.
Plants can only perform photosynthesis during the daytime, and leafy trees drop their leaves in the autumn in temperate climates, so they are unable to perform photosynthesis in the winter. They still perform respiration in order to use stored energy and survive during these times, though.
Also taken from
http://www.co2science.org/journal/v7/v7n31b1.htmHence, there is every reason to believe that the typically observed decreases in dark respiration experienced by plants exposed to elevated levels of atmospheric CO2 are indeed real and not the result of defects of the measurement system. This being the case, it can be appreciated that plant growth is not only enhanced by CO2-induced increases in photosynthesis during the light period of the day, they are also enhanced by CO2-induced decreases in respiration during the dark period.
It appears to me that plants do not need animals but animals need plants. And from what I have read regarding Photosynthesis and Plant Respiration, it also appears that plants are flexible with both these processes. They can increase and reduce O2 intake if necessary.
It just shows me that God created the world with plants and that ecosystem was self sustaining. This however has no bearing on me regarding the timing of plants and animals appearing on earth. But it appears that at least that it was possible for plants to survive by themselves for a long period.
Regarding plants that need animals to spread their seed: Perhaps plants like animals can adjust to their environment in order to survive. Look at all the different types of humans there are. Black ones for warm climes white ones for colder climes. Yet we are all brothers and come from the same original seed. God has made his creation and the species therein to be flexible to environmental changes.
We must also take into account that death had not entered humanity at least until the creation of man. Perhaps our death made the earth come to ruin and brought death to the other species? When we look at descriptions of the new earth we see things like the lion laying down with the lamb as opposed to the lion makin a meal out of a lamb.
Also God created some plants after the fall of man. He filled the earth with weeds to curse us. So this could have been the time when he created plants with animal dependencies.
Hi,
As far as giving men opportunities not to believe so their faith is tested was not Jesus himself a 'stumbling stone' for the Jews? All their study had not clarified for them that Jesus came first as a suffering servant and then later he returns as King. This refusal to accept the messiah was prophesised and fulfilled. God is always sifting and refining men in His crucible.uhm, i didn't see in there how plants would survive without CO2. help? i have found a lot of web sites that explain how plants can survive without us, and they all talk about how they are producers and we are consumers, and then they talk about what a plant needs to produce, sunlight, water, and CO2. CO2 they simply say comes from the air. well, of course it does. but where does the CO2 in the air come from? i'm positive it isn't appearing out of oxygen molecules that got bored with being oxygen, and so decided to beome CO2.
“God may have been experimenting and developing and perfecting His creation over time,” said Nick. I've read most of this topic.
My question is Why? Why the dinosaurs? This thought of experimenting was all I could find for this question. I'm not sure if that answer feels right. “Experimenting,” “developing,” “perfecting his creation,”?
This is what troubles me.
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