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Some scriptures cause me to question the accuracy of certain books of scripture as they appear to misquote certain scriptures. Take the following scripture that is quoting Hosea 11:1 which is speaking of Israel and not the Messiah. So why did the writer of Matthew state that Jesus returning from Egypt was a fulfillment of that prophecy.
Matthew 2:15(NIV) reads:
Quote where he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”
So what intent did the writer of Matthew have to state such a scripture was fulfilled when the scripture in question was clearly speaking of the time of Mosses and not of Jesus. Could it be that Israel was an example of what would in the future happen to Jesus?
Another scripture that also seems to be misquoted is this one from Hebrews as the cited scripture embedded in it is speaks not of the Son but rather it is speaking of the Father.
Hebrews 1:10-12(NIV) reads:
Quote He also says,
“In the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”Another similar scripture from Hebrews is once again quoting a scripture that is speaking of God and not of the Son even though the writer of Hebrews states it is speaking of the Son.
Hebrews 1:6(NIV) reads:
Quote And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God's angels worship him.”So I propose the hypothesis that like when Israel represented Jesus earlier, Jesus represents God as Jesus is our Mediator and so is King over everything in heaven and on earth. Since he has that role both these statements are saying not that Jesus is God but rather that God given him authority over everything in heaven and on earth. Hebrews also makes the case that God has not given that much authority to any angel.
Hi KW,
Things are hidden in the Old and revealed by the New.
Do not stand back and judge what God has written though men.John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.Acts 24:14
But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:1 John 5:13
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Things are hidden in the Old and revealed by the New.
Do not stand back and judge what God has written though men.That is not what we are told in scripture as we are told to test the spirits and see if the come from God or man. We also told that the Beareans are considered noble for testing to see what Paul said was in agreement with the Jewish scriptures of the time. Isn't it wise for us to follow their example. Still in testing we need to be careful to correctly understand both the scriptures of the old and new testament. That is what I am seeking to do in this post.
Hi KW,
We are not told to judge the words of God to see if they come from Him but the spirits among men.
The words of the OT have been better studied and better preserved.2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
But God reveals the old with the new.
New wineskins for the new wine, but men prefer old wine.
Luke 5:39
No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.Matthew 13:52
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.Hi KW,
2Peter1
2Peter1
19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:So Peter advises that we who are reborn of the Spirit study scripture, we feed on the bread of life, till that Spirit renews and enlivens our minds till like Paul we can say it is no longer me that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.
Hi KW,
In other words it is impossible to put it all together without the help of the Spirit that wrote it.But we must express among our brothers what we think we hear from the Spirit so it can be tested and corrected.
Matthew 10:27
What I tell you in darkness, that speak ye in light: and what ye hear in the ear, that preach ye upon the housetops.Acts18
24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus.25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.
26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Like Apollos we must remain teachable or we become useless.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote We are not told to judge the words of God to see if they come from Him but the spirits among men.
You are contradicting scriptures because Paul speaking the words of God when the Beareans were commended for testing what he said. You are sounding like a Catholic with their doctrine about the Pope being without error when speaking from the chair. I ask who canonized the Bible as we know it today and who dropped at least one book from that Cannon at a later date? The book of Tobias(Tobit) is the one I speak of. Putting your faith in men is foolish and putting your faith in men whose doctrine you believe is heresy is even more foolish. Put your faith in God that He will reveal the truth to you because God exists and is not far off.
2 Peter 1 is not contradicting anything I have said as there is many false prophets and Peter is not saying that their works are from God.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote So Peter advises that we who are reborn of the Spirit study scripture, we feed on the bread of life, till that Spirit renews and enlivens our minds till like Paul we can say it is no longer me that liveth but Christ that liveth in me.
I am not sure if you are trying to say because scripture is not the bread of life but rather believing in Jesus as Lord and so obeying his teachings is . Peter instructs us that scripture, and he is only referring to the Old Testament as such since the New Testament was canonized after his death, is useful for a tool to teach in righteousness. It is a tool that can be done without if necessary since the Holy Spirit is the instructor of those whom believe but I believe doing so would make the teaching more difficult.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote In other words it is impossible to put it all together without the help of the Spirit that wrote it.
I agree with you statement here. There are sometimes scriptures I do not understand and sometimes I misunderstand them and in both cases I have to wait for God to explain them correctly. That is part of learning. I am addressing just such an issue with this thread.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Like Apollos we must remain teachable or we become useless.
Once again I agree in that we must only remain teachable by God and not by man.
Kerwin,
Acts 18:25He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor[a] and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.Scripture seems to indicate that man will at times be what God uses to teach us.
My opinion – Wm
Hi kerwin.
I don't know about this instance, but sometimes the NT writers quoted from books that are not part of the bible. e.g., the Book of Enoch.
There are quite a number of books that were never canonised. Although I am not saying this to endorse every book out there, but to say that it is worth keeping this in mind. Some of the books could even be lost.Hi KW,
God did allow some challenges in understanding His words and some we will never grasp till we meet the Son of man. Peter could not understand all Paul's wisdom [2Peter] but he knew it was wisdom all the same and did not accuse Paul of falsehood even though he had suffered rebuke at his hand.There are a few added sections that are obvious and we need to know about but God guards His life giving words
It seems men now cannot approach scripture with an open mind but are burdened with church dogmas.
Instead of pondering any apparent confusion till light comes they rush to accuse scripture of being false or just allegory or badly translated.Patience.
seeking truth wrote:
Quote Scripture seems to indicate that man will at times be what God uses to teach us.
I agree but we must test what they say in order to determine if it comes from God or not so as not to be misled by a false teacher of law/prophet.
T8 wrote:
Quote I don't know about this instance, but sometimes the NT writers quoted from books that are not part of the bible. e.g., the Book of Enoch.
There are quite a number of books that were never canonised. Although I am not saying this to endorse every book out there, but to say that it is worth keeping this in mind. Some of the books could even be lost.
I agree that the word of God can be in extra biblical places but I have a disagreement with the Book of Enoch we know since some of it seems to clearly be based on a possible early Greek mistranslation for Hebrew where “giant” replaced “Nephilim” which means “those causing others to fall”. I say possible because both translation could basically mean “hero” and the Nephilim were known to be heroes according to scripture. From what I have heard the Etheopian version of Enoch 1 and Jubelees has a different take on the Nephilim in that they unequivocally state that it was some of the sons of Seth that pursued the daughters of Cain. That sounds more consistent with scripture so the Etheopian version, which I believe are recognized as legitimate by the local Catholic organization, may actually be legitimate.
The bottom line though is to test the spirit of what you hear in order to determine if it comes from God or from man.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote There are a few added sections that are obvious and we need to know about but God guards His life giving words
I do not remember where in scripture it states “God guards His life giving words” but I do know that it does state he will test our hearts by sending false prophets and teachers of law. I also know scripture states:
Daniel 7:25(NIV) reads:
Quote He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.
And I know that that the authority over scripture was handed over to the Catholic church for a time. I also know they tampered with it to at least a small extent.
The question here is whether what the Catholic Church calls the word of God is the word of God at least as far as their cannon minus the book of Tobias is concerned. As I pointed out to T8 the Ethiopian tradition regard versions of Enoch 1 and Jubilees as the word of God while the Roman Catholic tradition does not.
I was only expressing doubts in certain parts of the books of Hebrews and Matthew as there are some parts I convinced are truly the word of God and you did admit that some section were added. It also possible that other sections have been removed.
Still that is not my argument about these scriptures. My argument is that they belong in scripture but that the reasoning of the writers was not as straightforward as we assume. In both Matthew and Hebrews the writers knew that Jesus is the Messiah and believed their readers did also. Because of that they are not attempting to prove that he is but rather they are speaking of him as the Lord of everything in heaven and on earth.
We need to be prepared to answer questions about God in and out of season and this is my current answer about these scriptures. God may reveal that my reasoning is not from Him or may provide me with a better answer at a later date. That is why I called it a hypothesis.
Hi KW,
Surely you know Ps12?
6The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.7Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever.
Ps 18, 19, 119, 2Sam22 ??
How did you come to your path except by the words of our God?
Hi KW,
If you have doubts about scripture but cannot prove yourself right you should assume you are wrong.Hi KW,
Doubt is a very serious spiritual disease so do not encourage it in others.Jas1
5But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him.6But he must ask in faith without any doubting, for the one who doubts is like the surf of the sea, driven and tossed by the wind.
7For that man ought not to expect that he will receive anything from the Lord,
8being a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If you have doubts about scripture but cannot prove yourself right you should assume you are wrong.
Would you go back to my original and read it once more? If you do you will find that I am proposing a solution for my doubts.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote If you have doubts about scripture but cannot prove yourself right you should assume you are wrong.
That does not seem to be the best solution. My solution is to ask God for guidance and to seek that guidance and when I believe I receive that guidance I take every action to put it into action. But if you look at my original post then you will see that is what I am doing.
Now if I want to do an action that scripture calls immoral(evil) I would do as you say.
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