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I have heard from the pulpit before that the first lie ever told was that men could become gods. It was the first lie Satan told to humans. Is this true? My belief is that the first lie Satan told to humans was actually him lying about how God would respond to their actions. Lying about whether God was one who would back up his degree. Tricking them into thinking that with the knowledge they gained they could somehow overcome the will of God. I believe he was telling the truth about the affects of the fruit.
Genesis 3:1-5
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (elohim), knowing good and evil.
Most people assume Satan blatantly lied to Eve. They say that the idea about men becoming like gods is the very lie that got us into this mess, it was Satan's first lie to us. However, I suspect his lie was more subtil than that. Let's look.
My opinion based off of my previous study is that Satan perverted the truth through guile. He was being honest with the affect of the tree but was lying that eating of the tree would not lead ultimately to death. Adam and Eve had never seen anything die before. It was a foreign concept. “What is dying?” They bought his lie.
We find out at the end of the chapter in Genesis 3 that Satan was not lying about the affects of the fruit. It would make them like the elohim and it would not kill them (directly at least). What a sneaky viper. Adam and Eve did gain knowledge and did not die as a direct result of eating the fruit.
Genesis 3:22
22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”
(Then they will live forever!!!!!!)
Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life. God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die. Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life.
In John 8:44 Jesus points out that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Satan was lying about them dying as a result of their sin and about whether God would or could do anything to them if they ate of the fruit. That was the lie, not that they would become as the elohim. Satan basically murdered them by deceiving them about their own mortality. They bought that lie.
John 8:44
44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Notice how in the following verses Paul describes how Satan lies by describing how false apostles lie. They dont blatantly lie they warp the truth. They preach Jesus like true apostles, but they preach a different gospel and give a different spirit.
2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
And so we see that The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil really does make you like the elohim (gods). OK Satan wasn't lying about that, Genesis 3:22 cleared that up. And The Tree of Life enables you to live forever! Adam and Eve died because they lost access to it. So what would have happened if they wouldn't have lost access to it?
They would have the same benefits as a resurrected Christian!!!!!! Knowledge of the elohim and eternal life. They just needed one last ingrediant; The spirit of God in them to perfect them and give them power.
I believe that is why God did not just let them have it to begin with. He was teaching them, training them and carrying out his plan knowing what the future held.
Here we eat and Live!
Revelation 2:7
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Here we eat and learn!
Revelation 2:17
17 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give some of the manna that has been hidden away in heaven.
Hidden manna, symbolizing God's Word, is concealed from the rest of the world; it is special insight from God that feeds the soul and sustains spiritual life. In the ancient world, a white stone was given to one under judgment as an absolution from guilt, a black stone to the condemned. A white stone signifies innocence through forgiveness and grace to enter the Kingdom of God. The new name reflects the holy character built by the repentant overcomer.
Here we are perfected through the spirit and made like Christ ruling with him as the elohim we have become like!
Revelation 2:26-27
26 To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end,
To them I will give authority over all the nations.
27 They will rule the nations with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.[d]28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
Revelation 3:12
12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.
Revelation 3:21
21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
Any Thoughts?
Of course he LIED! He wanted to be above GOD….now we see here where he tries to convince Man…GOD's beloved creation to do the same thing.
Of, course the fruit gave knowledge of good and evil. That is probably exactly why GOD did not want them to eat it. Because when GOD creates something its not created with EVIL. Man was created with choice…but at first they were without sin, they had no evil in them. Till they ate of the fruit…a commandment of GOD to not do…and they did no nonetheless….therefore sinning. And, thereby gaining the knowledge of Death, sin, evil, and such things in order to do them again.
Thats what satan wanted….to doom everything he can just like hes doomed.
thats his common goal. surely everyone knows this by now.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 22 2007,08:18) Of course he LIED! He wanted to be above GOD….now we see here where he tries to convince Man…GOD's beloved creation to do the same thing. Of, course the fruit gave knowledge of good and evil. That is probably exactly why GOD did not want them to eat it. Because when GOD creates something its not created with EVIL. Man was created with choice…but at first they were without sin, they had no evil in them. Till they ate of the fruit…a commandment of GOD to not do…and they did no nonetheless….therefore sinning. And, thereby gaining the knowledge of Death, sin, evil, and such things in order to do them again.
Thats what satan wanted….to doom everything he can just like hes doomed.
thats his common goal. surely everyone knows this by now.
I specifically asked if he lied about the affects of the fruit. Not whether he lied in general.I also think that at the ressurection we become like the elohim, sons of God.
God himself has the knowledge of Good and evil. The knowledge itself is not evil. It's the choices that follow that often are.
To put this post in perspective this is a follow up post to my thread about us becoming morning stars, sons of God, elohim, gods at the resurrection.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 21 2007,14:29) I have heard from the pulpit before that the first lie ever told was that men could become gods. It was the first lie Satan told to humans. Is this true? My belief is that the first lie Satan told to humans was actually him lying about how God would respond to their actions. Lying about whether God was one who would back up his degree. Tricking them into thinking that with the knowledge they gained they could somehow overcome the will of God. I believe he was telling the truth about the affects of the fruit. Genesis 3:1-5
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?
2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods (elohim), knowing good and evil.
If you heard this from the pulpit, then this is yet another case where you need to actually read what the Bible says instead of believing in the words of man.First of all, where is Satan here? Satan, as some personified fallen angel is a misapplied Christian theology. It is foreign to the Tanach. “Satan” in the Tanach means “adversary”. Would you say this is the “Christian Satan”?
Num 22:22 But God was angry because he was going, and the angel of the LORD took his stand in the way as an adversary [“satan”] against him. Now he was riding on his donkey and his two servants were with him.
Who's angel was this? This angel certainly does not appear to be “fallen”, but sent of God.
Also, how do we know the “serpent” was “satan”? This is apologetics at its finest. 99% of Christianity wants to believe the serpent was “satan” the “fallen angel”, but where is their proof? Maybe some clues in Revelation, but nothing definitive.
“Satan” was not personalized until the NT.
And the verse says “like God” or “as God”, not “a god”. You are reading preconceived notions into scripture in your desire to deify yourself. God is God, we are man. Period. Anything else is akin to idol worship.
Quote Most people assume Satan blatantly lied to Eve. They say that the idea about men becoming like gods is the very lie that got us into this mess, it was Satan's first lie to us. However, I suspect his lie was more subtil than that. Let's look. My opinion based off of my previous study is that Satan perverted the truth through guile. He was being honest with the affect of the tree but was lying that eating of the tree would not lead ultimately to death. Adam and Eve had never seen anything die before. It was a foreign concept. “What is dying?” They bought his lie.
Did they have to know what death was? It was a warning of God, the first “law” (and a very simple one). They disobeyed.What are the wages of sin?
Quote We find out at the end of the chapter in Genesis 3 that Satan was not lying about the affects of the fruit. It would make them like the elohim and it would not kill them (directly at least). What a sneaky viper. Adam and Eve did gain knowledge and did not die as a direct result of eating the fruit.
Yet, they did “die”. They became mortal. Sure hundreds of years, but still mortal. They died and went back to the earth. Dead is dead. The wages of sin.Quote Genesis 3:22 22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!”
(Then they will live forever!!!!!!)
There was no talk of death outside of disobedience. By implication, this then meant that they too we immortal. But if they had access to the tree of life after the sin, they too could live forever WITH the knowledge of good and evil. Man was not made for such. Only God and His host could bear such.Immortality “God”. Stop wishing.
Quote Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life.
Nope. He said if they ate from it they would die. If they obeyed, what is the opposite of death?!? Immortality. If you can't die…Quote God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die.
The death was not immediate. But their immortality was gone. Death. In the end, they went to the dirt. Dead.Quote Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life.
Sure. No doubts there. But the result is still the same. Death. no matter how you color it.Quote In John 8:44 Jesus points out that Satan was a murderer from the beginning. Satan was lying about them dying as a result of their sin and about whether God would or could do anything to them if they ate of the fruit. That was the lie, not that they would become as the elohim. Satan basically murdered them by deceiving them about their own mortality. They bought that lie.
What lie? The serpent merely questioned. It was Eve who decided what the answer was to be.Quote John 8:44 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Notice how in the following verses Paul describes how Satan lies by describing how f
alse apostles lie. They dont blatantly lie they warp the truth. They preach Jesus like true apostles, but they preach a different gospel and give a different spirit.2 Corinthians 11:3-4
3 But I fear that somehow your pure and undivided devotion to Christ will be corrupted, just as Eve was deceived by the cunning ways of the serpent. 4 You happily put up with whatever anyone tells you, even if they preach a different Jesus than the one we preach, or a different kind of Spirit than the one you received, or a different kind of gospel than the one you believed.
2 Corinthians 11:13-15
13 These people are false apostles. They are deceitful workers who disguise themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 But I am not surprised! Even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 So it is no wonder that his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness. In the end they will get the punishment their wicked deeds deserve.
And so we see that The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil really does make you like the elohim (gods). OK Satan wasn't lying about that, Genesis 3:22 cleared that up. And The Tree of Life enables you to live forever! Adam and Eve died because they lost access to it. So what would have happened if they wouldn't have lost access to it?
Finish the rest of the quote MSGen 3:5 “For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
The serpent is more truthful than you! He clarifies his meaning by saying that Eve would be more like God in that they would know good and evil, something totally foreign to them. All they knew was God and His creation. And what did God say about that?
Gen 1:31 God saw all that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day
Quote They would have the same benefits as a resurrected Christian!!!!!! Knowledge of the elohim and eternal life. They just needed one last ingrediant; The spirit of God in them to perfect them and give them power. I believe that is why God did not just let them have it to begin with. He was teaching them, training them and carrying out his plan knowing what the future held.
Here we eat and Live!
Revelation 2:7
7He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.
Here we eat and learn!
Revelation 2:17
17 “Anyone with ears to hear must listen to the Spirit and understand what he is saying to the churches. To everyone who is victorious I will give some of the manna that has been hidden away in heaven.
Hidden manna, symbolizing God's Word, is concealed from the rest of the world; it is special insight from God that feeds the soul and sustains spiritual life. In the ancient world, a white stone was given to one under judgment as an absolution from guilt, a black stone to the condemned. A white stone signifies innocence through forgiveness and grace to enter the Kingdom of God. The new name reflects the holy character built by the repentant overcomer.
Here we are perfected through the spirit and made like Christ ruling with him as the elohim we have become like!
Revelation 2:26-27
26 To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end,
To them I will give authority over all the nations.
27 They will rule the nations with an iron rod
and smash them like clay pots.[d]28 They will have the same authority I received from my Father, and I will also give them the morning star!
Revelation 3:12
12 All who are victorious will become pillars in the Temple of my God, and they will never have to leave it. And I will write on them the name of my God, and they will be citizens in the city of my God—the new Jerusalem that comes down from heaven from my God. And I will also write on them my new name.
Revelation 3:21
21 Those who are victorious will sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat with my Father on his throne.
Any Thoughts?
Sure. Man is man, and will always be. Glorified body or not. We will never be God. Start proclaiming you are “god” in a public place and see how long before the boys with the straight jackets seek you out. And justifiably so.Benny Hinn anyone?
Hi Morning Star:
The lie was as you have stated and that is:
Quote 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: However, you state:
Quote Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life. God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die. Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life. My understanding is that Adam and Eve died spiritually followed by judgment which included physical death. As you say, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and lost access to the tree of life. They lost the fellowship that they had with God. And so, although they lived in the flesh for almost 1000 years, they were spirtually dead. The immediate effect when they ate of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil is that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked and then they tried to hide from God because of their guilt. It was not the fruit of the tree that brought forth their spiritual death but the act of disobedience to God.
Quote 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. F21 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool F22 of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And so, since I do not see that Adam and Eve repented, they are probably spiritually separated from God forever. Before their fall, they were in innocence, and could have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever.
My understanding is that God uses the plural for Himself in the He is the God of Gods and the Lord of Lords.
De 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:There is, however, only one God. And there will never be but one God. Adam and Eve were like God in that they knew knowledge of good (obedience to God) and knowledge of evil (disobedience to God). But we as born again Christians become like God(not gods but like God) as we learn to obey His Word. Jesus is the express image of God's person(Hebrews 1:3), and we become like him as we learn to apply God's Word to our daily lives.
God Bless
when I use the term god it is the english translation of the plural elohim. God called his sons “god”.
This is semantics, language barriers and presuppositions that cause peope to freak out.
It is a title like king. It is reflective of a mighty one with a given authority.
I don't think Christians will be like God the Father, in power or authority.
Look my point is simple and I believe it is scriptural. The knee jerk reactions from those repulsed by this view is only natural given the indoctrination of the traditions of men.
We are sons of God …. pretty simple
We are going to be changed at the resurrection…. pretty simple
We are going to be give authority as the morning star rises in us and we will rule nations…. pretty simple
We will be taking the roles of the previous fallen sons of God…pretty simple
God calls his sons “gods”…. pretty simple.
I am just saying that we will be like elohim… we will have knowledge… we will eat of the tree of life and live forever.
You don't have to agree with my position, but come on the pieces are all there, correct my errors, but please don't act like I am some freak. Please don't call me Binny Hinn.
I wish you would at least consider this. Your posts seem like knee jerk reactions.
I agree with your defining of Satan. I don't think that is his name. It also is a title.
But the being who specifically earned the personification of “Satan”. Was that serpent in the garden.
In fact, in the book of Enoch, it says the angel that tempted Eve was named Gadreel. I realize, you don' care about that book. My point in mentioning it is that yes early Christians knew that Satan was a title meaning adversary.
God can use fallen angels if he chooses. He has power to do so. where is the contradictions here?
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2007,09:49) Hi Morning Star: The lie was as you have stated and that is:
Quote 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: However, you state:
Quote Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life. God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die. Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life. My understanding is that Adam and Eve died spiritually followed by judgment which included physical death. As you say, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and lost access to the tree of life. They lost the fellowship that they had with God. And so, although they lived in the flesh for almost 1000 years, they were spirtually dead. The immediate effect when they ate of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil is that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked and then they tried to hide from God because of their guilt. It was not the fruit of the tree that brought forth their spiritual death but the act of disobedience to God.
Quote 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. F21 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool F22 of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And so, since I do not see that Adam and Eve repented, they are probably spiritually separated from God forever. Before their fall, they were in innocence, and could have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever.
My understanding is that God uses the plural for Himself in the He is the God of Gods and the Lord of Lords.
De 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:There is, however, only one God. And there will never be but one God. Adam and Eve were like God in that they knew knowledge of good (obedience to God) and knowledge of evil (disobedience to God). But we as born again Christians become like God(not gods but like God) as we learn to obey His Word. Jesus is the express image of God's person(Hebrews 1:3), and we become like him as we learn to apply God's Word to our daily lives.
God Bless
I mostly agree with you.But hey If God calls his sons “gods”.
If God gives his sons authority over nations.
If God gives his sons knowledge and eternal life.
If God gives his sons the power to move mountains through faith.
Then What is the problem people have with the facts.
God gives his sons the title and regency of gods.
Yes I know there is only one eternal unbegotten uncreated all powerful God.
Please don't let titles, translations and language barriers prevent you from seeing what is being promised us.
you may think that elohim means “the royal we” but I think I have demonstrated in “we are to become morning star post otherwise”
Most scholars who dont have a religious agenda or a specific denominational adherence state Elohim is clearly in the plural and describing the council of God. Him and his sons.
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 22 2007,10:12) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2007,09:49) Hi Morning Star: The lie was as you have stated and that is:
Quote 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: However, you state:
Quote Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life. God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die. Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life. My understanding is that Adam and Eve died spiritually followed by judgment which included physical death. As you say, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and lost access to the tree of life. They lost the fellowship that they had with God. And so, although they lived in the flesh for almost 1000 years, they were spirtually dead. The immediate effect when they ate of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil is that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked and then they tried to hide from God because of their guilt. It was not the fruit of the tree that brought forth their spiritual death but the act of disobedience to God.
Quote 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. F21 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool F22 of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And so, since I do not see that Adam and Eve repented, they are probably spiritually separated from God forever. Before their fall, they were in innocence, and could have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever.
My understanding is that God uses the plural for Himself in the He is the God of Gods and the Lord of Lords.
De 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:There is, however, only one God. And there will never be but one God. Adam and Eve were like God in that they knew knowledge of good (obedience to God) and knowledge of evil (disobedience to God). But we as born again Christians become like God(not gods but like God) as we learn to obey His Word. Jesus is the express image of God's person(Hebrews 1:3), and we become like him as we learn to apply God's Word to our daily lives.
God Bless
I mostly agree with you.But hey If God calls his sons “gods”.
If God gives his sons authority over nations.
If God gives his sons knowledge and eternal life.
If God gives his sons the power to move mountains through faith.
Then What is the problem people have with the facts.
God gives his sons the title and regency of gods.
Yes I know there is only one eternal unbegotten uncreated all powerful God.
Please don't let titles, translations and language barriers prevent you from seeing what is being promised us.
you may think that elohim means “the royal we” but I think I have demonstrated in “we are to become morning star post otherwise”
Most scholars who dont have a religious agenda or a specific denominational adherence state Elohim is clearly in the plural and describing the council of God. Him and his sons.
Hi Morning Star:God calls His Son and his sons gods in that we are partakers of his divine nature. But I will go no further than to call myself a son of the Most High God.
God does promise us, his children who love Him, many blessings, and Jesus states:
Quote Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. And so, there will be those who will be given authority even as was given to our Lord, but with the same humility that was exemplified by our Lord Jesus.
Quote . Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. God Bless
Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2007,11:48) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 22 2007,10:12) Quote (942767 @ Oct. 22 2007,09:49) Hi Morning Star: The lie was as you have stated and that is:
Quote 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: However, you state:
Quote Adam and Eve were not naturally immortal. They needed to eat from the Tree of Life. God told them they would die, because, he knew they would be banished and loose access to the Tree of Life. Satan was warping the truth. Did Adam and Eve die after they ate of the fruit? No, it took almost a thousand years for them to die. Eating the fruit did not directly kill them. Satan was warping the truth again, but not blatantly lying. The fruit would not kill them it wasn't a poisoned fruit. What actually killed them was a secondary affect; loosing access to the Tree of Life. My understanding is that Adam and Eve died spiritually followed by judgment which included physical death. As you say, they were banished from the Garden of Eden and lost access to the tree of life. They lost the fellowship that they had with God. And so, although they lived in the flesh for almost 1000 years, they were spirtually dead. The immediate effect when they ate of the “tree of knowledge of good and evil is that their eyes were opened and they knew that they were naked and then they tried to hide from God because of their guilt. It was not the fruit of the tree that brought forth their spiritual death but the act of disobedience to God.
Quote 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. F21 8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool F22 of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden. And so, since I do not see that Adam and Eve repented, they are probably spiritually separated from God forever. Before their fall, they were in innocence, and could have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever.
My understanding is that God uses the plural for Himself in the He is the God of Gods and the Lord of Lords.
De 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:There is, however, only one God. And there will never be but one God. Adam and Eve were like God in that they knew knowledge of good (obedience to God) and knowledge of evil (disobedience to God). But we as born again Christians become like God(not gods but like God) as we learn to obey His Word. Jesus is the express image of God's person(Hebrews 1:3), and we become like him as we learn to apply God's Word to our daily lives.
God Bless
I mostly agree with you.But hey If God calls his sons “gods”.
If God gives his sons authority over nations.
If God gives his sons knowledge and eternal life.
If God gives his sons the power to move mountains through faith.
Then What is the problem people have with the facts.
God gives his sons the title and regency of gods.
Yes I know there is only one eternal unbegotten uncreated all powerful God.
Please don't let titles, translations and language barriers prevent you from seeing what is being promised us.
you may think that elohim means “the royal we” but I think I have demonstrated in “we are to become morning star post otherwise”
Most scholars who dont have a religious agenda or a specific denominational adherence state Elohim is clearly in the plural and describing the council of God. Him and his sons.
Hi Morning Star:God calls His Son and his sons gods in that we are partakers of his divine nature. But I will go no further than to call myself a son of the Most High God.
God does promise us, his children who love Him, many blessings, and Jesus states:
Quote Rev.3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. 22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. And so, there will be those who will be given authority even as was given to our Lord, but with the same humility that was exemplified by our Lord Jesus.
Quote . Phil 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion F7 as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. God Bless
I agree completely.I just go the extra bit that most people are afraid to tread. I go that extra bit only because i see the terminology, descriptions and promises that scripture uses to desribe a christians future.
I use the same words scripture does. Most just find it scary to utter them or to take them literally or seriously.
Hi Morning Star:
You say:
Quote I just go the extra bit that most people are afraid to tread. I go that extra bit only because i see the terminology, descriptions and promises that scripture uses to desribe a christians future. I use the same words scripture does. Most just find it scary to utter them or to take them literally or seriously.
You can go there if you want, but I won't go any further with you than I have already stated.
God Bless
The most we will be is LIKE unto God.
Like Jesus:
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
So…are you trying to prove that Satan is only like a half lier or something?
lol…please don't try to give this old serpent any type of credit for anything. He is a deceiver. It don't matter if you flat out lie, or you distort the truth about something (Meaning that you just don't tell the whole truth)…its still a LIE!
There is a good lesson to be learned here. That there is no such thing as a little lie, a lie is a lie. Just like with sin….there is no Sin thats any worse than any other sin…its still sin. And the wages of sin is DEATH….period. When SIN is finished it bringeth forth DEATH! We can see this by the mistake that Adam and Eve made here in this very instance we are discussing.
Quote (Samuel @ Oct. 22 2007,18:02) So…are you trying to prove that Satan is only like a half lier or something? lol…please don't try to give this old serpent any type of credit for anything. He is a deceiver. It don't matter if you flat out lie, or you distort the truth about something (Meaning that you just don't tell the whole truth)…its still a LIE!
There is a good lesson to be learned here. That there is no such thing as a little lie, a lie is a lie. Just like with sin….there is no Sin thats any worse than any other sin…its still sin. And the wages of sin is DEATH….period. When SIN is finished it bringeth forth DEATH! We can see this by the mistake that Adam and Eve made here in this very instance we are discussing.
No i am not trying to prove that. I am trying to demonstrate what awaits us at the resurrection.Elohim status!
Well…
giving the current disposition of man…yeah I suppose it would be safe to say …well…comparing mans current state to the state he will be after he is either resurrected of caught up to be with Christ…and ultimately with GOD in the New Kingdom…would be nothing short of a God-Like status.
However, I would be careful not to get that confused with the fact that if we were to compare that status that you speak of to GOD that we are still not going to be GOD. In fact I would not want to even teach people of any such thing for fear that they might be confused of, or tempted by Satan to think such a thing.
Nonetheless, I do believe I understand what you are trying to say now.
Zechariah 12
8 On that day the Lord will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God (elohim), like the angel of the Lord who goes before them! (Jesus)
Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,10:56) Zechariah 12 8 On that day the Lord will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God (elohim), like the angel of the Lord who goes before them! (Jesus)
MSThere is a difference in being like God and being “a god”.
1 Cor 8:4
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are *so-called gods* whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but **one God**, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Call them gods if you like but they are not gods.
Paul says they are “so called gods” and for us there is one God!
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.You are promoting “Henotheism” or “Polytheism” which the scriptures deny.
The word “eloyhim” also mean judges and rulers so taking scriptures in their context and reconciling all scriptures together , God says there is no God before him nor after him.
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Oct. 23 2007,15:34) Quote (Morningstar @ Oct. 23 2007,10:56) Zechariah 12 8 On that day the Lord will defend the people of Jerusalem; the weakest among them will be as mighty as King David! And the royal descendants will be like God (elohim), like the angel of the Lord who goes before them! (Jesus)
MSThere is a difference in being like God and being “a god”.
1 Cor 8:4
Therefore concerning the eating of things sacrificed to idols, we know that there is no such thing as an idol in the world, and that there is no God but one.
5 For even if there are *so-called gods* whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords,
6 yet for us there is but **one God**, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.Call them gods if you like but they are not gods.
Paul says they are “so called gods” and for us there is one God!
Isa 43:10
Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.You are promoting “Henotheism” or “Polytheism” which the scriptures deny.
The word “eloyhim” also mean judges and rulers so taking scriptures in their context and reconciling all scriptures together , God says there is no God before him nor after him.
here is where the problem comes in.we are going to be elohim. sons of god.
bible translators make elohim read god. God calls his sons elohim. translators call that word gods.
it is the english language getting people all in a huff.
because we use god as a name for God.
it gets confusing and freaks out most people.
God is Eloah.
Sons of God are Elohim.
Yes…
You have to remember some people don't have a Strong's Concordance, and even though they have the internet they are not real good at using it.
So, a lot of people don't know anything but the KING JAMES VERSION OF THE BIBLE. If its not in there or don't flat out say it there then its not of GOD according to them. They don't realize that the actual bible was written in Hebrew and Greek…and since none of us can read Hebrew or Greek …we are at the mercy of those that can to translate it for us.
One word in Greek or Hebrew can mean a whole list of things and have various different uses in a sentence. I like the bible and I like to read the King James Version. I kind of like that GOD WORD, the New King James and the 21st Centry King James Versions.
I like these online bible sites alot cause I can compare scripture in other translations with out having to buy all the different ones.
Original WordWord Origin
eyhl) plural of (0433)
Transliterated WordPhonetic Spelling
'elohiym el-o-heem'
Parts of SpeechTWOT
Noun Masculine 93c
Definition1. (plural)
1. rulers, judges
2. divine ones
3. angels
4. gods
2. (plural intensive – singular meaning)
1. god, goddess
2. godlike one
3. works or special possessions of God
4. the (true) God
5. God
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