Did many of the jewish sages

[terraricca]

asher

in you reasoning we can see either you are looking to learn to become attached to Christ in the new covenant,or as a Jew you are looking for proselytes in a christian environment,

my feelings,unglued or glue you to the truth.

[Elizabeth]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,00:35)

Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,08:11) asher… Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future. Georg Thats not what it looks like here. You would be shocked if you knew how many have believed it all along and do today as well.

asher…

What I meant was, they believe in the Messiah, they just didn't believe it was Jesus.

Georg

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Elizabeth @ Feb. 09 2010,21:22)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,00:35) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,08:11) asher… Very few believed it then, and very few believe it today; that will all change in the near future. Georg Thats not what it looks like here. You would be shocked if you knew how many have believed it all along and do today as well. asher… What I meant was, they believe in the Messiah, they just didn't believe it was Jesus. Georg

No I mean that there are many who do believe Yeshua is the Messiah. Is that what you were referring to?

[Elizabeth]

asher…

No, I was not, but I agree, it was the Pharisees that did not like their authority challenged, and people feared them, just as the Catholics fear the pope; getting excommunicated.

Georg

[942767]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 09 2010,14:11)

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2010,09:31) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 28 2010,14:17) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,11:21) Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and goo d.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash Hi Asher: I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert. I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile.  We are one in the Lord. And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved? Love in Christ, Marty What I mean is, a Jew is already home, what would a Jew convert to when he or she is already an Israelite, already a Jew? The New Covenant was about grafting in the lost tribes of Ephrayim back into the fold and about grafting in the Gentiles into the fold. It was the Gentile who had to convert via heart. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does not believe in Yeshua will only believe when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, only then will HaShem lift the veil over their eyes as it was HaShem who blinded them from knowing the Messiah. It all depends on what the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which has yet to happen. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does believe in Yeshua, is all set. Baptism is something that a Jew does everyday, it is called Tevillah in Hebrew. Now, being immersed in the mikveh in the name of Yeshua, that would obviously be done once they believed in Yeshua. But salvation is not dependent upon baptism-tevilah. Peace always Ash

Hi Asher:

While I agree, salvation is not dependant on baptism, but is dependant on our faith what God has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, water baptism is a work of obedience publically showing that we have believed with a repentant heart.

You are not making any sense by saying that the Torah observant Jew will be saved without believing in God's testimony regarding His Son and His Christ.

If that were so, why then would the Apostle Paul indicate that those Jews who did not believe in Yeshua were broken because of unbelief.

And what of the following scriptures:

Quote

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Or this one:

Quote

1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Of course, my desire is that every man be saved, and that is why I live and preach the gospel.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 10 2010,09:49)

[/quote] Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Feb. 09 2010,14:11) Quote (942767 @ Feb. 09 2010,09:31) Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,15:12) ashermoshehthreepointonefour,Jan. wrote: [quote=942767,Jan. 28 2010,11:21]Hi Asher: You say: Quote None have an interest to convert because the followers of Yeshua remained Jews,  there was no instruction to leave Judaism, only to continue in it. Are you saying that they believe that they will be saved by keeping the Law?  Well they could if they could keep it without violating it in any way. The scriptures state that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter the Kingdom of God. This is what the Apostle Paul had to say: Quote Gal 3:2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Gal 3:3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Gal 3:4 Have you suffered so many things in vain–if indeed it was in vain? Gal 3:5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, [does He do it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?– Gal 3:6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” [fn] Gal 3:7 Therefore know that [only] those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. Gal 3:8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, [saying], “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” [fn] Gal 3:9 So then those who [are] of faith are blessed with believing Abraham. Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed [is] everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” [fn] Love in Christ, Marty HI there… I never said anything of the kind. Jews do not believe salvation comes from keeping the Torah of Works which is a common misconception about Jews, salvation comes from the Torah of Faith. Keeping the Torah is the way of life. Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Jews also believe in the Spirit and Faith, and that one is born of water and spirit. All these concepts are not new, and were not new when Yeshua or Paul came to town. These are direct quotes written by Paul… who was a practicing Pharisee Romans (Rominim) 2:13 “because the hearers of the Torah (Law) are not justified before G-d, but the doers of the Torah (Law) shall be justified.” “Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the Torah.” Righteousness is counted by faith first. However, the scriptures also say that we cannot be righteous unless we keep the Law. The great mind of Paul, who painstakingly wrote his thesis on the paradoxical issues with the Torah. The Abrahamic promise… the covenant that was made between G-d and Abraham, the father of all nations, is one of the focuses of Christian teaching… we should really consider what the scriptures say in regards to this, as it clearly shows what the role of the believer should be. Faith is how we are justified by G-d, but if we do not keep the Law then our faith is empty and dead… and therefore we cannot be justified. If we look at what Genesis says about Abraham we can see that this pattern very clearly. Genesis (Bereshis) 15:6 “And he (Abraham) believed in HaShem; and he counted it to him for righteousness.” Now that we see that faith is how we are justified, how can we then learn from Abraham's following acts? Lets see what the scriptures say…. Genesis (Bereshis) 26:4-5 “And I will make your seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto your seed all these countries; and in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my TORAHs.” Abraham was the first Jew. How? Through faith. Did Abraham then feel that his righteousness through faith warranted him to then not keep G-d's Law? Or did Abraham put his faith into action by keeping the Law? Paul spoke of the Jew who is inwardly, without circumcision (conversion)… this is why Abraham was considered the first Jew… Through faith (before circumcision), his consciousness was Jewish, however…. the scriptures prove that Abraham kept the whole Torah before the Torah was even given. This further proves that a person of faith, ought to keep the Torah. The book of James is clearly saying that. It is clear that Abraham's faith is what lead him to keep the Law. Abraham was given the Torah before it was given on Sinai (Gen 26:5), and this is something that Christianity fails to understand. The Law was established by Abraham, because his faith lead him to desire to keep G-d's Law. Faith or the Abrahamic promise does not nullify the Law, it establishes it. James (Yamei) 2:17 “Even so faith, if it has not works of the Torah, it is dead, being alone. Yeah, a man may say, You have faith, and I have done works: shew me your faith without your works, and I will shew you my faith by my works. You believe  that there is one God; you will do well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you see how faith wrought with his works, and by works of the Torah was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which says, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of G-d. You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works of the Torah is dead also.” What is the right thing? let's see what Paul says… Romans (Rominim) 7:12 “Wherefore the Torah is holy, and the commandments holy, and just, and good.” Yeshua warns about lawlessness Matthew (Matisyahu) 7:21-23 “Not every one that says unto me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter into the k ingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works?' And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: get away from me, you workers of lawlessness.” Ecclesiastes (Kehilot)12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear G-d, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. The scriptures are warning us about teachers who will lead us astray… again, I must quote the scripture that prophecizes the ways of the anti-christ and what he will do with the Torah… Daniel 7:25 “And he (the anti-christ) shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear down the saints of the most High, and will think to change the appointed times and the Torah: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.” Yeshua said still “If you love me, keep the commandments.” Yeshua also said “If you want eternal life, then keep the commandments.” Paul said “Is the Torah null and void? G-d forbid.” Paul also said “We establish the Torah.” Quote Hi Asher: You say: Quote Judaism does not expect observants to keep the Torah perfectly, no Jew thinks that they can keep it perfectly. Its merely a way of life that takes a life time to grow in and continuously correct and refine. Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast.  Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of all those who obeyed God in the OT and for all who come to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. And so, when you say that Jews won't convert although they believe, because followers of Yeshua remained Jews, how then can they be saved?  It is the blood that was shed for us that washes away our sins. Love in Christ, Marty Hello brother, Well Im glad you acknowledge faith without works is dead and that faith without boasts is correct and that grace is intact. It is true that Yeshua took away our sins, but just because he came and did the right thing and taught us to do the right thing, doesnt mean that he did that so that we dont have to do the right thing anymore. The church, is all of Israel, Jew and Gentile. There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. It was only necessary for a Gentile to convert (circumcision of heart or flesh if you will). The Bible tells us that Gentiles are grafted into Israel, not the Jews grafted into something else. And yes, there were Jews who were broken off, but will be grafted back in… Yeshua, the Apostles and the Netzari Moshiachim HaDerekh (the original sect that followed Yeshua) never converted to another religion. There was no such instruction to do so, not in the Bible and not in history. A person can be a Torah observant Jew and still be saved by the blood that washed away our sins. Peace and Love, Ash Quote Hi Asher: I am not sure, then what you mean by saying that a Jew does not have to convert. I agree that the church is Israel, which is Jew and gentile.  We are one in the Lord. And so, I guess the question that I have is, do you believe that a Torah observant Jew, in the present era, has to believe that Yeshua is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead, and having believed God's testimony regarding what he has done for humanity through Yeshua, do they need to follow this with water baptism to be saved? Love in Christ, Marty What I mean is, a Jew is already home, what would a Jew convert to when he or she is already an Israelite, already a Jew? The New Covenant was about grafting in the lost tribes of Ephrayim back into the fold and about grafting in the Gentiles into the fold. It was the Gentile who had to convert via heart. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does not believe in Yeshua will only believe when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, only then will HaShem lift the veil over their eyes as it was HaShem who blinded them from knowing the Messiah. It all depends on what the fullness of the Gentiles come in, which has yet to happen. The Torah Observant Jew in today's era who does believe in Yeshua, is all set. Baptism is something that a Jew does everyday, it is called Tevillah in Hebrew. Now, being immersed in the mikveh in the name of Yeshua, that would obviously be done once they believed in Yeshua. But salvation is not dependent upon baptism-tevilah. Peace always Ash Hi Asher: While I agree, salvation is not dependant on baptism, but is dependant on our faith what God has done for us in the person of His Only Begotten Son and His Christ, water baptism is a work of obedience publically showing that we have believed with a repentant heart.

Baptism was always a custom that was performed by an Israelite, so yes, it is part of the Torah.

Quote

You are not making any sense by saying that the Torah observant Jew will be saved without believing in God's testimony regarding His Son and His Christ.

You misunderstood what I meant.

It was HaShem who blinded the Jews from knowing the Messiah, and this was a prophecy, He blinded them but will not lift the veil until the fullness of the Gentiles come in. This has yet to happen. So the Jew does not have anything to worry about, whether they believe in Yeshua now or not, they are still worshipping the Father and are keeping the commandments. In a sense, they are already following Yeshua. When the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then they will see and then all will be well.

Quote

If that were so, why then would the Apostle Paul indicate that those Jews who did not believe in Yeshua were broken because of unbelief.

The Jew is still following the Father, so they are far better off than anyone who does not believe in Yeshua. But they will believe when G-d lifts the blinding.

Quote

And what of the following scriptures: Quote John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the wor ld through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Or this one: Quote 1 John 5:9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater: for this is the witness of God which he hath testified of his Son. 10He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. 11And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. Of course, my desire is that every man be saved, and that is why I live and preach the gospel. Love in Christ, Marty

Please refer to what I said above, all in G-d's timing. The task now rests on the Gentiles, when the fullness of the Gentiles have come in, then G-d will give the Jew the sight to see. This is all G-d's doing, He blinded the Jew from knowing the Messiah but in return for that He blessed the Jew with the insight of the Torah. G-d has a master plan as you know.

[942767]

Hi Asher:

Those Torah observant Jews who do not believe with be judged by the Law in the day of judgment. Many will will believe in this last day when the Gentile church comes to maturity, and doctrines such as the “trinity” are corrected. Many are believing now, but it is difficult for anyone to believe when there is so much division in the body of Christ.

All of Israel will be saved. That Israel from the Nation of Israel and that Israel that is from the Gentile nations.

Again, it is my desire that all will be saved.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[Ed J]

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55)

There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. Peace and Love, Ash

Hi Asher,

John 14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. ([יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh!)

Romans 11:7-32 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for;
but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written,
God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;)
unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock,
and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles,
for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles;
how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I
am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may
provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,
what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree,
wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root,
but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith.
Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches,
take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God:
on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness:
otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in:
for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature,
and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these,
which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren,
that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits;
that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer,
and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election,
they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Gal:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

[andersbranderud]

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“Well, we know then that we are saved by faith so that it might be by grace, and not of works lest any man should boast. Nevertheless, we do know that faith without works is dead.”

Le-havdil, How to live in order to enable the Creator in His loving kindness to provide His foregivness is outlined in Tan’’kh ( the Jewish Bible) ; and was also taught by the first century Ribi Yehoshua from Nazareth (the Mashiakh; the Messiah) (His teachings are found here: http://www.netzarim.co.il )

Tan’’kh – for example Yekhëzqeil (Hezekiel) 18 – promises foregiveness to those and only those who do their sincerest to keep the mitzwot (directive or military-style orders ) in Torah. The Creator cannot lie and He does not change (Malakhi 3:6)!

Ribi Yehoshua ha-Mashiakh lived and kept Torah with the sincerest of his heart, died innocently and became a sacrifice. Because of that the Creator can give His foregiveness for the short comings (in keeping Torah) to everyone doing his/her sincerest to keep His instructions found in Torah, and to everyone turning away from their Torah-breaches to instead starting to do their sincerest to keep the instructions in Torah.

Anders Branderud

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (942767 @ Feb. 11 2010,13:27)

Hi Asher: Those Torah observant Jews who do not believe with be judged by the Law in the day of judgment.  Many will will believe in this last day when the Gentile church comes to maturity, and doctrines such as the “trinity” are corrected.  Many are believing now, but it is difficult for anyone to believe when there is so much division in the body of Christ. All of Israel will be saved.  That Israel from the Nation of Israel and that Israel that is from the Gentile nations. Again, it is my desire that all will be saved. Love in Christ, Marty

Hi…

Paul himself said that G-d Himself has blinded the Jews, and that G-d will not lift the veil of blindness UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come in. This is a prophecy.

If G-d Himself blinded them, and if He states and Paul states that this blindness will be in effect UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles come in, that specifically means that when the fullness of the Gentiles come in, then G-d will lift the veil and the Jew will SEE.

G-d's prophecies do not go unfulfilled, it is clearly stating in the texts that the Jews will be saved.

You are right about the false doctrines of Christianity need correction, as there is a massive influx of heretical teachings that have flourished for centuries. The Paganized Hellenized de-Judaified doctrines of Christianity has lead the many believers astray.

The fullness of the Gentiles coming in, means that the Gentiles will one day realize the true roots of its faith, which is Judaism. Until the Gentiles realize that Yeshua was teaching a Jewish religion and not a new one, then it will enable the Gentiles to start coming in.

When the Jews see that Gentiles are coming in, and coming in in its fullness, and they realize that it is because of Yeshua that they are keeping the Torah and coming into the fold, the Jew will see Yeshua.

The tables have turned, before it was all dependent upon the Jew, now, it is dependent upon the Gentile. This is not a bad thing, this is showing that G-d valued all mankind as equals and that He intended all people to be Israel.

[NickHassan]

Hi ASH,
True Israel is of faith and not religion.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Ed J @ Feb. 11 2010,14:18)

Quote (ashermoshehthreepointonefour @ Jan. 29 2010,01:55) There is no need for a Jew to convert when they are already within the camp. Peace and Love, Ash Hi Asher, John 14:1: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. ([יהשוע המשיח] YÄ-shü-ă hä-Mäh-shē-äkh!) Romans 11:7-32 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them. For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead? For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20: Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. Gal:3:28: There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. Witnessing to the world in behalf of… יהוה האלהים(JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm! (Psalm 45:17) Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34) http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

HI,

The Romans passage is what I was referring to.

In Galatians, we have consider the context. There are still female and male, still slave and free, so there is still Jew and Gentile,

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,04:50)

Hi ASH, True Israel is of faith and not religion.

Hi Nick,

No matter how we slice, we are all subject to our own perspectives, as we each accept a system of beliefs… therefore there is no way to escape the fact that each one of us, have a religion. Religion is a system of beliefs.

Faith is what brings us to believe what we believe, but one can have faith in something and be utterly wrong about what they have faith in.

[NickHassan]

HiASH,
James defines religion differently.

Faith is in God and His promises, not the traditions of men.
Our hope has been been bound to religious observances.

[NickHassan]

Hi ASH,
The synagogue of satan still attempts to undermine the work of God's Spirit in Christ and the apostles.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,05:19)

HiASH, James defines religion differently. Faith is in God and His promises, not the traditions of men. Our hope has been been bound to religious observances.

The traditions of men are things like Christmas, Easter, Sunday Sabbath, Halloween, etc… not the Oral Torah traditions that came from Sinai. It is important to realize that The Apostles were not only in opposition to the corrupted doctrines of the corrupted Jewish religious leaders, but also of the Hellenistic Pagan influences that were coming out of the Greco-Roman factions. The commandments that G-d gave, cannot be equated with traditions of men.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,05:23)

Hi ASH, The synagogue of satan still attempts to undermine the work of God's Spirit in Christ and the apostles.

Very true…. the synagogue of satan is revealed by a particular line, indicating that the synagogue says they are Jews but are not, and force the people to eat things sacrificed to idols. Can you guess what group this might be?

[NickHassan]

Hi ASH,
Christ is the reality and rebirth into this perfected Jewish man fulfills for us the requirements for inheriting all the promises made to Abraham.

[ashermoshehthreepointonefour]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 15 2010,06:59)

Hi ASH, Christ is the reality and rebirth into this perfected Jewish man fulfills for us the requirements for inheriting all the promises made to Abraham.

Im not sure what you are saying. Can you rephrase and clarify?

[NickHassan]

Hi ASH,
There is no longer Jew nor gentile but only Christ.
Other allegiences matter not a whit.

[Author]

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