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Gene said:
Quote You may be surprised how clear and simple scriptures are when you see Jesus as a Human being Only instead of a GOD Gene,
Does a mere human being uphold the universe by the word of His power (Hebrews 1:1-3). “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was what God was….And the Word became flesh.” This is simple enough.
You're the one who says that the Father shed His own blood. You make trinitarians look respectable even to anti-trinitarians.
Start fresh Gene!
thinker
hi all
it is strange that people like to call others blind if you don't see it there way,and if you show them the scripture that they quote does not mean what they explain ,and you intervene to correct to the proper view and understanding of that scripture they reject your view anyway,this only shows that there is just another agenda to there meaning,but a true person knows that God is watching on things he does ,but most do not care and for this play around with the other.
Quote (terraricca @ Jan. 29 2010,04:06) hi all
it is strange that people like to call others blind if you don't see it there way,and if you show them the scripture that they quote does not mean what they explain ,and you intervene to correct to the proper view and understanding of that scripture they reject your view anyway,this only shows that there is just another agenda to there meaning,but a true person knows that God is watching on things he does ,but most do not care and for this play around with the other.
t,Everyone has an agenda here. Who can say, “I am pure from sin?”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2010,19:30) Ed WorshippingJesus said to ED J:
Quote No you think about it. I offered to engage you one on one in the debates thread so we could have more control in what questions we do ask, but you said no to this. You engage me in this thread and then when the dialogue gets difficult for you then you want to change the rules.
It is seems to me you are not interested in the truth but to promote your doctine and your book!
Blessins WJ
WJ,This is why I don't like to discourse with this guy.
thinker
JackWith Ed you have to spend a lot of your time in politics and defending your actions rather than discussing the scriptures.
Its a mind game with him. Most here make post and respond to them without all the accusations about not being interested in truth or following manmade traditions.
Really childish IMO.
When I have dialogue with Marty for instance, we discuss the scriptures without all the mind games that ED plays!
Trying to have dialogue with this guy is like swallowing a Camel. IMO.
I thought maybe we could make some progress when he said to me to go ahead and answer JA for that seemed more important and he wasn't in a hurry. So when I do answer JA and make a few small post then he engages me and in the middle of our dialogue he trys to make some kind of rules to answer one question at a time.
Why not just answer the post and let the flow of dialogue continue without all the mental game playing? Then more questions would get answered IMO!
I refuse to get into endless arguments about what question did or didn't get answered or what is fair YadaYadaYada!
If I don't want to answer a question then I will just ignore the post and move on. Ed could do the same, and has, but you don't see me accusing him for not answering me as an excuse to not continue dialogue! But if he is in the middle of a debate and you ask him another question then rather than answer you and continue with the debate he would rather make some excuse like play by his rules or I answered you now you answer me!
I may answer him and I may not! But if I don't it is not because I am not interested in knowing the truth.
And so goes the accusations and me once again using my time having to defend myself rather than discuss the scriptures!
Blessings WJ
Someone here said that Jesus being in hades/sheol (whatever) was like Jonah being in the Whale
While this is true (And Jesus himself said so!) the person went on to imply that Jesus' spirit cried out in torment – just like Jonah's.
But didn't Jesus' spirit go up to God – Jesus died – Jonah didn't die in the Great Fish. Wasn't it just “Being 'dead' for three days that Jesus quoted about Jonah – nothing more!!!?
Further, this someone also said that the story of the Rich man and Lazarus was true. Maybe a Rich man did die and a poor man (named Lazarus) did die – who knows?
If the Rich man was in torment, does this imply that he had not used his wealth wisely and was now suffering for it? But the poor man, even being poor, did not offend God and was given comfort in the bosom of Abraham?
So then, when Jesus died – Where would he have gone – To abraham's bosom or into torment?
This person implied that Jesus' spirit CRIED OUT in Torment – like Jonah's — ooops – so Jesus was in torment – ike jonah, like the rich man – For what reason? (Remember, Jonah ws being punished for disobeying God's command to preach to the Ninevehn's.
Didn't Jesus say to the theief “…This day you will be with me in Paradise!”
Any comments: (yeah, you spelt Thief wrongly!)
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2010,05:10) George Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,07:01) That is why Jesus referred to himself as a temple; destroy it, and after three days he will raise it up again; that however does not mean he raised himself, nor does it mean he was bodily resurrected just because there was no body found. Was Jesus not a spirit being before he became a man? God gave him back his true nature, spirit, when he was resurrected.
You are denying the resurrection.The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe“…. Then saith he to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing“. John 20:25, 27
If Jesus was not risen then your faith is in vain. 1 Cor 15:13-20
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “neither his flesh did see corruption“. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32, 33
WJ
WJYou quoted me, and yet you did not read what I said; read my “last four words” in your quote.
So, how can you say I deny the resurrection?
You have no clue what a ransom is, do you?
If God raised up Jesus in his flesh body, which had taken on all of our sins; why did he not do that with Adam, and all of us, then Jesus would not have had to die at all, is that not right?Georg
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2010,17:30) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2010,17:20) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2010,01:16) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2010,05:42) The thinker wrote: Quote The words “raise up” does not mean “build.”
What is a barn raising?
The Greek word simply means the coming out into public for the first time and can be used for birth, resurrection, or a building. That list is not necessary all inclusive as I am going from memory.
Kerwin,Jesus commanded the Jews to “destroy THIS temple.” The verb is in the imperative mood. Jesus actually COMMANDED them to destroy “THIS” temple.
Would Jesus command them to destroy the spiritual temple? And when was the spiritual temple destroyed and rebuilt in three days?
He commanded them to destroy the temple of His body.
thinker
That sounds like you are agreeing with one of the false accusers who stated Jesus stated he would destroy the temple.Are you saying his students covered for him after his death?
I do not believe that is what you meant to imply but it is best to think of what we are writing before we put fingers to the keyboard.
I have no idea what you are speaking of since I looked up the Greek word “luo” which is translated “destroy” in John 2:19 and strangely it fits with my interpretation of the scripture since it means “loose”,unbind, dissolve in parts, etc.. It is translated to “loose” 27 times in times in the KJV compared to 2 times for destroy.
Jesus is the mustard seed planted in the ground. The seed has grown to a tall tree with much fruit.
Kerwin,You did not address my question. Jesus said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise it up.” He was speaking of the temple of His body which you say is the spiritual temple or body. When was the spiritual temple destroyed and rebuilt in three days?
This is a fair question is it not?
thinker
I did answer it. The Jews loosed the temple of the Holy Spirit when they put Jesus to death. Like a seed it grew and entered many temples that we shall regard all as one temple.In fact it could be stated that Jesus is still building that temple as the gospel is preached to more and more people. When the temple is finished then he will return and the day of judgment will be at hand.
If that later point is considered then perhaps he was not speaking of that temple.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2010,05:25) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2010,17:30) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2010,17:20) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2010,01:16) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 28 2010,05:42) The thinker wrote: Quote The words “raise up” does not mean “build.”
What is a barn raising?
The Greek word simply means the coming out into public for the first time and can be used for birth, resurrection, or a building. That list is not necessary all inclusive as I am going from memory.
Kerwin,Jesus commanded the Jews to “destroy THIS temple.” The verb is in the imperative mood. Jesus actually COMMANDED them to destroy “THIS” temple.
Would Jesus command them to destroy the spiritual temple? And when was the spiritual temple destroyed and rebuilt in three days?
He commanded them to destroy the temple of His body.
thinker
That sounds like you are agreeing with one of the false accusers who stated Jesus stated he would destroy the temple.Are you saying his students covered for him after his death?
I do not believe that is what you meant to imply but it is best to think of what we are writing before we put fingers to the keyboard.
I have no idea what you are speaking of since I looked up the Greek word “luo” which is translated “destroy” in John 2:19 and strangely it fits with my interpretation of the scripture since it means “loose”,unbind, dissolve in parts, etc.. It is translated to “loose” 27 times in times in the KJV compared to 2 times for destroy.
Jesus is the mustard seed planted in the ground. The seed has grown to a tall tree with much fruit.
Kerwin,You did not address my question. Jesus said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise it up.” He was speaking of the temple of His body which you say is the spiritual temple or body. When was the spiritual temple destroyed and rebuilt in three days?
This is a fair question is it not?
thinker
I did answer it. The Jews loosed the temple of the Holy Spirit when they put Jesus to death. Like a seed it grew and entered many temples that we shall regard all as one temple.In fact it could be stated that Jesus is still building that temple as the gospel is preached to more and more people. When the temple is finished then he will return and the day of judgment will be at hand.
If that later point is considered then perhaps he was not speaking of that temple.
Nonsense! The disciples believed Christ's word after He had risen from the dead. At that time they knew nothing about the church as a spiritual temple/body. This was revealed to God's people through Paul who had not appeared on the scene yet.You are saying that after He had risen from the dead they believed His word because it had dawned on them that the construction of the spiritual temple/body had begun. But they had only a generic understanding that Christ would build His church. At that time they had no background in teaching to think of the church as a spiritual temple/body. You are super imposing the teachings of Paul which they had not yet received into their content of faith after their Lord's resurrection.
The PLAIN SENSE without any special pleading is that Jesus would raise up the temple of His own flesh and blood body.
thinker
Hi TT,
God was in him and spoke through him.
God did it by His Spirit.He was not that God but the son of that God.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 29 2010,06:35) Hi TT,
God was in him and spoke through him.
God did it by His Spirit.He was not that God but the son of that God.
Through = by cause ofGod did it by cause of Him.
Define “that” God. The Son was God qualitatively and representatively. How does this translate?
thinker
Hi TT,
If you knew God you would not need Him defined for you.
You would also be able to fellowship with Him and His Son[2jn9]
But of course you would have to discard your human ideas and submit to scriptureSomething I have been meaning to sk for some time;::
Why all the HUGE MULTIPLE PART postings?
is it not enough to refer to a page number or only post the relevant parts from another post.Cinical thinking says that someone is trying to hide other postings by DUMPING almost the whole page from other posts into a new one. Like wiping a slate clean because you do not want others to what was written before.
Even so, can mutli-dumps be kept to a minimum?
Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 28 2010,13:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2010,05:10) George Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,07:01) That is why Jesus referred to himself as a temple; destroy it, and after three days he will raise it up again; that however does not mean he raised himself, nor does it mean he was bodily resurrected just because there was no body found. Was Jesus not a spirit being before he became a man? God gave him back his true nature, spirit, when he was resurrected.
You are denying the resurrection.The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe“…. Then saith he to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing“. John 20:25, 27
If Jesus was not risen then your faith is in vain. 1 Cor 15:13-20
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “neither his flesh did see corruption“. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32, 33
WJ
WJYou quoted me, and yet you did not read what I said; read my “last four words” in your quote.
So, how can you say I deny the resurrection?
You have no clue what a ransom is, do you?
If God raised up Jesus in his flesh body, which had taken on all of our sins; why did he not do that with Adam, and all of us, then Jesus would not have had to die at all, is that not right?Georg
GeorgeThe resurrection is the ressurection of our bodys!
I suppose Lazuras being raised from the dead by Jesus was not in his body?
The scriptures are clear that Jesus body did not see corruption and was not found in the tomb because he arose and showed his hands and his feet. When he was Glorified the state of his body was changed into a Glorified body!
What about these scriptures….
Who shall change “our vile body“, that it may be fashioned “like unto his glorious body“, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, “through the veil, that is to say, his flesh“; Heb 10:19, 20
What do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said if any man eat his flesh and drink his blood? Then after his resurrection he introduces the New Covenant of his body and his blood.
Is it a different Body or different blood?
I don't think so.
Jesus Body is a spiritual body now but never the less it is his body!
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and “with what body do they come“? Thou fool, “that which thou sowest is not quickened, (made alive) except it die“: 1 Cor15:35, 36
Here we clearly see that our bodies die and are quickened, made alive!
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption”: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-44
Every where in the 66 books of the Bible where there was a resurrection it was the resurrection of the body that died.
Our bodys according to the scriptures like Jesus Body will be changed and made like his glorious body!
Who shall change “our vile body“, that it may be fashioned “like unto his glorious body“, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
Without the resurrection then our faith is in vain!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
The new and imperishable body is put over the old and perishable.
Then we will be like to the man from heavenThe Thinker wrote:
Quote At that time they had no background in teaching to think of the church as a spiritual temple/body.
The temple is where God dwells and God dwells in the body of believers through the Holy Spirit. It is therefore self evident that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Jesus expected those that heard him to know that. That they did not shows their minds were not on things above. It appears that even one of the false witnesses at his trial caught on but seems to have rejected the truth anyways.
Mark 14:58(KJV) reads:
Quote We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 29 2010,03:52) Quote (942767 @ Jan. 28 2010,14:57) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 28 2010,14:26) Marty said: Quote Who said that his body ceased to exist. His body was in the tomb or sheol which is the grave. His spirit went to God.
Okay now you really got me confused. Earlier you said that you believe the “cease to exist” definition. If the body continues to exist in the grave and the spirit goes to God, then what is it that ceases to exist?You are not making any sense.
Sheol is not the resting place of the body. It is the resting place of the soul or spirit. The scripture CLEARLY says that Christ's SOUL went to sheol
You will not leave my SOUL in hades (or sheol). Hades is where souls went to await the resurrection. Jesus said, “No man has ascended into heaven” (John 3:13).
Your misapplication of Ecclesiastes 12:7 is evident. It does not say that the spirit returns to God upon death. The whole idea is contrary to new testament teaching. At the time that Jesus appeared no man had yet ascended into heaven.
You read more into a solitary old testament scripture then what is written.
thinker
Hi thethinker:Life in the body of Jesus ceased to exist until God raised him from the dead. Again, Life ceased to exist in the body of Jesus until God raised him from the dead
Now, does it makes sense. Not too hard to understand, is it? Jesus was dead.
You are confusing the spirit and the soul. They are not the same, and what does the fact that no man had ascended into heaven from the dead have to do with this.
The spirit of Christ is the doctrine of Christ or is the life that he lived in the body.
The scripture states that man will be judged according to his works. The spirit of Christ is the spirit that will give eternal life first to Jesus and then to those who are his at his coming.
Love in Christ,
Marty
Marty,No one denies that the body of Jesus was dead. But it was His body ALONE that was dead.
Which part of Jesus raised Lazarus to life? Was it His body or His spirit essence that did it? If you say it was his body then you need help. If you say it was His spirit essence that raised Lazarus then you should have no problem with accepting that He raised His own body.
Hades (or sheol) was not the grave where dead bodies were placed. Paul said that Jesus was raised from the “abyss” (Rom. 10:7). The KJV says “the deep” and in Revelation 20:1 it says the “bottomless pit.” Satan was (or will be) cast into the abyss. Is satan to be laid in a tomb?
So the “abyss” is not the grave or the tomb. Paul said that Jesus descended into the “lower parts of the earth.” Jesus' body was placed in a tomb and not the “lower parts of the earth.”
The soul or spirit of Jesus went down to hades (the deep, or the abyss).
thinker
Hi thethinker:It is good that we agree that Jesus was dead, and that means that there was no life in his body.
Remember, Jesus was alive when he raised Lazarus from the dead, and so how does that relate to him raising himself, besides the scriptures state that God raised him from the dead.
He did descend into the deep, the abode of sinners who are dead or separated from God because of sin. His soul was there, and was dead or separated from God.
His spirit was with God, and it was through his righteous spirit that God judged him not guilty of death and raised him from the dead.
God raised him from the dead. He did not raise himself.
This is what the scripture states:
Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. And so, if you want to argue with this scripture, then you are agruing with God and not with me.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 29 2010,07:45) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 28 2010,13:07) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 28 2010,05:10) George Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 27 2010,07:01) That is why Jesus referred to himself as a temple; destroy it, and after three days he will raise it up again; that however does not mean he raised himself, nor does it mean he was bodily resurrected just because there was no body found. Was Jesus not a spirit being before he became a man? God gave him back his true nature, spirit, when he was resurrected.
You are denying the resurrection.The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, “Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe“…. Then saith he to Thomas, “Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing“. John 20:25, 27
If Jesus was not risen then your faith is in vain. 1 Cor 15:13-20
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, “neither his flesh did see corruption“. This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Acts 2:32, 33
WJ
WJYou quoted me, and yet you did not read what I said; read my “last four words” in your quote.
So, how can you say I deny the resurrection?
You have no clue what a ransom is, do you?
If God raised up Jesus in his flesh body, which had taken on all of our sins; why did he not do that with Adam, and all of us, then Jesus would not have had to die at all, is that not right?Georg
GeorgeThe resurrection is the ressurection of our bodys!
I suppose Lazuras being raised from the dead by Jesus was not in his body?
The scriptures are clear that Jesus body did not see corruption and was not found in the tomb because he arose and showed his hands and his feet. When he was Glorified the state of his body was changed into a Glorified body!
What about these scriptures….
Who shall change “our vile body“, that it may be fashioned “like unto his glorious body“, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, “through the veil, that is to say, his flesh“; Heb 10:19, 20
What do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said if any man eat his flesh and drink his blood? Then after his resurrection he introduces the New Covenant of his body and his blood.
Is it a different Body or different blood?
I don't think so.
Jesus Body is a spiritual body now but never the less it is his body!
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and “with what body do they come“? Thou fool, “that which thou sowest is not quickened, (made alive) except it die“: 1 Cor15:35, 36
Here we clearly see that our bodies die and are quickened, made alive!
“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It (the body) is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption”: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: IT IS SOWN A NATURAL BODY; IT IS RAISED A SPIRITUAL BODY. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 1 Cor 15:42-44
Every where in the 66 books of the Bible where there was a resurrection it was the resurrection of the body that died.
Our bodys according to the scriptures like Jesus Body will be changed and made like his glorious body!
Who shall change “our vile body“, that it may be fashioned “like unto his glorious body“, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. Phil 3:21
Without the resurrection then our faith is in vain!
Blessings WJ
WJWhy do you do this, jump all over the place; to confuse me, or is it because you are?
First you tell me I deny the resurrection, when I did not; now you come back with “our” resurrection.
What does Lazarus have to do with all of this, another decoy?
Jesus showed the apostles his wounds because they did not recognize him, he did not look the same.
He was glorified after he ascended to heaven, forty days later.
A change of nature, meaning, receiving a spirit body, is only for the saints in the first resurrection.
The new covenant was introduced at the last supper, not after his resurrection.
Are you Catholic that you believe you literally have to eat his body and drink his blood?
You may have noticed that from all the saints, first resurrection, there will be some kings and some priests; only the kings, the 144000, will have a divine immortal body as Jesus has, they have the Fathers name written in their forehead, meaning, they are the adopted sons of God.Georg
Ps, try to be more orderly when you reply.
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 29 2010,12:25) The Thinker wrote: Quote At that time they had no background in teaching to think of the church as a spiritual temple/body.
The temple is where God dwells and God dwells in the body of believers through the Holy Spirit. It is therefore self evident that the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Jesus expected those that heard him to know that. That they did not shows their minds were not on things above. It appears that even one of the false witnesses at his trial caught on but seems to have rejected the truth anyways.
Mark 14:58(KJV) reads:
Quote We heard him say, I will destroy this temple that is made with hands, and within three days I will build another made without hands.
Kerwin,Wow! I marvel that you invoke false witnesses for support. John explicitly said that he as speaking about the temple of His body and yet you favor the interpretation of false witnesses.
Notice that they said that He would destroy the temple made with hands and build ANOTHER temple made without hands.
Jesus did not say anything about building “another” temple. He said, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise IT up.” He did not say, “Destroy THIS temple and in three days I will raise up ANOTHER.”
There was not “another” temple built in three days.
Furthermore, you are inferring that Jesus equivocated. You are saying that by the word “temple” he was telling them to destroy His body of flesh and that the temple that He would raise in three days was not. So when Jesus said “THIS” temple He was equivocating and assigning a double meaning. You have really hacked up language here!
Please answer the information below which I posted earlier in this thread:
TO ALL:
In Mark 9:31 and 10:34 Jesus said that the son of Man “shall rise.” In the Greek new testament the verb is written in the middle voice which means that the subject is acting upon Himself. The two verses would literally read, “He shall raise Himself again.”
I will provide the link for you to view this for yourself. After you get on the site put your arrow on the last Greek word in the verse and a box will appear indicating that the verb is middle.
Below is the texbook definition of the middle voice:
“The middle voice represents the subject as participating in the results of the action, as acting in relation to itself, as having personal interest in the action, as being intimately involved in the action. There is no equivalent in English” (Syntax of New Testament Greek, University Press of America, p. 111)
2 Peter 2:22 is an example:
“What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.” ESV
Jesus said, “The third day He shall raise Himself again” (Mark 9:31; 10;34).
thinker
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