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Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 26 2010,22:11) thinker Acts 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead”
Rom. 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Of course this don't mean nothing if you don't believe scripture.
Georg
For kerwin
NO, Jesus was not speaking of the new covenant.
Irene,Yes the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Yes the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. And yes Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up His body.
Why is it that you pick and choose which words of Jesus you will believe and not believe? And why is it that when the apostles say that Jesus is God you take Jesus' word over theirs? But when the apostles say that Jesus was raised by the Father you take their words over Jesus?
Jesus said, “I MYSELF am the resurrection and the life.” This implies His divinity for sure!
thinker
Hi TT,
IMPLIES?That is as close as you can ever get to establishing truth.
Why do you rely on such weak foundations?
God is one.Jesus is raising the dead by means of the HOLY SPIRIT which his Father [loans] him – not by his own Spirit – His own Spirit.
The Spirit of Christ – was, in part, for the gaining of salvation – if we maintain orselves in the Spirit of Christ then we will also maintain that Salvation.Hi TT,
One verse teaching is the basis of the JW folly.
God raised His son Jesus by His faithful Spirit who spoke through Jesus and abides in him.Nick,
In pondering 1 Peter 3:18-20:
Quote
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body
but made alive by the Spirit,
19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people,
eight in all, were saved through water,Jesus died in the Flesh (He was man after all – how can [a] God Die? and Salvation can only come through the death of a Sinless man – not a man-god that wouldn't be fair to ordinary men to whom Jesus was appealing!)
Then, Jesus was made alive by means of the [Holy] Spirit (which is from/of God Almighty, the Father)
And, through means of the [Holy] Spirit, Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (from the time of Noah) For what reason?
Is there any reason to believe that Jesus was 'in the grave' when he went to preach, by means of the Holy Spirit?
Or could it have been after he had risen (was raised up by means of the Spirit)?Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2010,03:37) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 26 2010,22:11) thinker Acts 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead”
Rom. 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Of course this don't mean nothing if you don't believe scripture.
Georg
For kerwin
NO, Jesus was not speaking of the new covenant.
Irene,Yes the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Yes the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. And yes Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up His body.
Why is it that you pick and choose which words of Jesus you will believe and not believe? And why is it that when the apostles say that Jesus is God you take Jesus' word over theirs? But when the apostles say that Jesus was raised by the Father you take their words over Jesus?
Jesus said, “I MYSELF am the resurrection and the life.” This implies His divinity for sure!
thinker
If Jesus raised himself, then he was not dead, was he?Georg
Hi JA,
Jesus was alive in the Spirit of God from the Jordan anointing.
The Spirit lives in the saved with their spirit[Rom 8.16]Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 27 2010,06:48) Nick, In pondering 1 Peter 3:18-20:
Quote
18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body
but made alive by the Spirit,
19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison
20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people,
eight in all, were saved through water,Jesus died in the Flesh (He was man after all – how can [a] God Die? and Salvation can only come through the death of a Sinless man – not a man-god that wouldn't be fair to ordinary men to whom Jesus was appealing!)
Then, Jesus was made alive by means of the [Holy] Spirit (which is from/of God Almighty, the Father)
And, through means of the [Holy] Spirit, Jesus went to preach to the spirits in prison (from the time of Noah) For what reason?
Is there any reason to believe that Jesus was 'in the grave' when he went to preach, by means of the Holy Spirit?
Or could it have been after he had risen (was raised up by means of the Spirit)?
AskinYou do not read your scriptures right, it says in v. 20; “in the days of Noah while the Ark was being build”, that is when he preached to the spirits; and who were those spirits? they are the angels that came down from heaven, left their first estate, Jude 6, they were responsible for the flood because they corrupted all of God's way, Gen. 6:12, in that they married woman and produced giants, hybrids. Gen. 6:1-6.
How is it that people think, when you're dead you are alive, that don't even make sense. Can you have light and dark in the same room at the same time? can you have hot and cold in the same cup at the same time? can a sheet of paper be all black and all white at the same time, on the same side?
The Bible says, “the dead no nothing”, what is there so hard to understand?Georg
George wrote:
Quote NO, Jesus was not speaking of the new covenant.
He May have been speaking of the Holy Spirit instead though technically it is the body of believers that is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Still as I pointed out to the thinker Jesus did tell his students on the third day after he was put to death to receive the Holy Spirit. That would fulfill what he stated.
Jesus’ body is a temple because he himself had the Holy Spirit. That Spirit did not depart from his temple when he died. Instead it was that Spirit that was responsible for him being rais4ed from the dead. He did build a temple for God when he gave the Holy Spirit to his students.
Romans 1:4(NIV) reads:
Quote and who through the Spirit of holiness was declared with power to be the Son of God by his resurrection from the dead: Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus was using word play. His reasons for doing so is probably the same reason he spoke in parables.
kerwin
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2010,18:50)
Jesus was using word play. His reasons for doing so is probably the same reason he spoke in parables.
Come on! Get real. When Jesus words do not agree with your theology then it is word play?Very weak indeed!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 25 2010,18:50) TO ALL: Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead.
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.In verse 19 Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Innovative attempts have been made here by several of you to explain the clear meaning of this away. A more valid attemppt was made recently by JustAskin inwhich he noted that verse 22 says that many translations say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The verb ἠγέρθη “was raised” is indeed written in the passive form. But as an intransitive verb it may be also translated in the active form depending upon context.
Quote In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.” Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible to determine with any certainty.
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdfPlease note that the source says that the verb may be translated in the active “He arose'' depending upon context. The context CLEARLY indicates that Jesus would raise up the temple of His body. He said, “In three days I willl raise it up.” The new King James Version translates the verb in verse 22 in the active voice so that it agrees with His statement in verse 19:
Therefore, when He had risen from the dead….
THE MIDDLE FORM OF THE VERB
In Mark 9:31 Jesus used the middle form of the verb. The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon himself or themselves. Jesus said,
For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
Note that the verb is translated in the active voice. But the literal reading would be,
After He is killed He will raise Himself up the third day.
The fact that every single translation renders the middle verb in the active voice is conclusive. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian translates the verb in the active voice:
but despite being killed, he will rise three days later
Boom! Even an anti-trinitarian translation renders the middle verb of Mark 9:31 in the active voice!
Anti-trinitarians argue also that the scriptures expressly declare that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead and they are correct. However, they miss that part in the scripture which says that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him:
…whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, BECAUSE it was not possible that He should be held by it. Acts 2:24
There it is! God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to be held by it. It was Jesus HIMSELF who abolished death:
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9
It is our Savior Jesus Christ Himself who abolished death! It is no wonder that when Thomas saw Him he said, “My Lord and my God!”
thinker
JackGood post! There is a lot of dancing round the truth of Jesus words going on in this thread!
I notice no one cares to address the Greek “tenses” surrounding his words which are proof that Jesus litterally meant that he would raise his own Body from the dead.
Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life, death could not hold him for he was without sin and He had the power to lay down his life and he had the power to take it up again!
“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and **I have power to take it again**. This commandment have I received of my Father“. John 10:18
This scripture is confirmation of Jesus words making his words unambiguous!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 27 2010,03:37) Quote (Elizabeth @ Jan. 26 2010,22:11) thinker Acts 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead”
Rom. 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Of course this don't mean nothing if you don't believe scripture.
Georg
For kerwin
NO, Jesus was not speaking of the new covenant.
Irene,Yes the Father raised Jesus from the dead. Yes the Spirit raised Jesus from the dead. And yes Jesus raised Himself from the dead. Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up His body.
Why is it that you pick and choose which words of Jesus you will believe and not believe? And why is it that when the apostles say that Jesus is God you take Jesus' word over theirs? But when the apostles say that Jesus was raised by the Father you take their words over Jesus?
Jesus said, “I MYSELF am the resurrection and the life.” This implies His divinity for sure!
thinker
Pay attention who signed the post, it was Georg…..not I, IreneQuote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 27 2010,11:03) Jack Good post! There is a lot of dancing round the truth of Jesus words going on in this thread!
I notice no one cares to address the Greek “tenses” surrounding his words which are proof that Jesus litterally meant that he would raise his own Body from the dead.
Jesus said he was the resurrection and the life, death could not hold him for he was without sin and He had the power to lay down his life and he had the power to take it up again!
“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and **I have power to take it again**. This commandment have I received of my Father“. John 10:18
This scripture is confirmation of Jesus words making his words unambiguous!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 27 2010,10:26) ED God anointed Jesus with the Holy Spirit…
you say that God is the Holy Spirit that God anointed Jesus with?
1Tm:6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,What is easier to do…
Send yourself to someone?
OR
Raise your self from the dead?TT does NOT like to answer my questions, because he does not seem to be interested in “Truth”; only endless arguing!
So that is why I ask you WJ, because you have NOT turned your back to “Truth”; your apology thread is the PROOF!According to Science it takes someone else to raise you, once you flat-line doesn't it?
1Tm:6:20: O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust,
avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:
Why do you persist in oppositions of Science and vain babblings?The POWER came from Jesus' Father; who raised Jesus up!
Acts:10:38: How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the HolySpirit and with power: who went about doing good,
and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God(HolySpirit) was with him(Jesus).
Gal.1:1: Paul, an apostle…by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from(Jesus) the dead;Why do you twist the Scriptures to match the traditions of me?
You have to turn your back on MANY Scriptures to believe in the systems of religion!The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.ED
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,19:37) What is easier to do… Send yourself to someone?
OR
Raise your self from the dead?
The Father never said “I send my self” did he? There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?Jesus did say “I will raise it up”! You do see the difference don't you? Or would you rather put muddy glasses on and deny the difference?
Jesus could raise himself because his Spirit did not die!
You have to deny a lot of scriptures to say that is not so!
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,19:37) Why do you twist the Scriptures to match the traditions of me?
You have to turn your back on MANY Scriptures to believe in the systems of religion!
No we do not deny any of the scriptures. It is Jack and I that says the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit took part in his resurrection!But it is you that denies Jesus own words. They are very clear and unambiguos. But I understand why your theolgy does not allow for Jesus own words because I think you are looking in a mirror and seem to just bring accusations against Jack and my self when you yourself have not debunked what we say. Here is the mirror…
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Blessing WJ
Hi WJ,
Spirits of men do not die but return to God.
Yes he was raised by God's Spirit abiding in him.Hi Ed
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,19:37) According to Science it takes someone else to raise you, once you flat-line doesn't it?
According to science you cannot turn water into wine!Do you base you theology on science? Was Jesus bound to natural laws of science?
In fact was the incarnation bound to natural laws of science?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 27 2010,12:06) ED
There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?Blessing WJ
Hi WJ,Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
What God do you claim is in you?
The “HolySpirit”(GOD The Father) is the GOD that is in me!Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,20:33) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 27 2010,12:06) ED
There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?Blessing WJ
Hi WJ,Eph.4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
What God do you claim is in you?
The “HolySpirit”(GOD The Father) is the GOD that is in me!
EdThe Holy Spirit is not mentioned in that verse!
The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit lives in me!
Can you tell me how that cannot be?
So is Jesus in you, and how many Spirits do you have?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 27 2010,12:06) ED Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,19:37) What is easier to do… Send yourself to someone?
OR
Raise your self from the dead?
The Father never said “I send my self” did he? There is no scripture that says the Holy Spirit is the Father is there?Jesus did say “I will raise it up”! You do see the difference don't you? Or would you rather put muddy glasses on and deny the difference?
Jesus could raise himself because his Spirit did not die!
You have to deny a lot of scriptures to say that is not so!
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,19:37) Why do you twist the Scriptures to match the traditions of me?
You have to turn your back on MANY Scriptures to believe in the systems of religion!
No we do not deny any of the scriptures. It is Jack and I that says the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit took part in his resurrection!But it is you that denies Jesus own words. They are very clear and unambiguos. But I understand why your theolgy does not allow for Jesus own words because I think you are looking in a mirror and seem to just bring accusations against Jack and my self when you yourself have not debunked what we say. Here is the mirror…
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.
Blessing WJ
Hi WJ,Why do you hold the systems of religion in such high regard?
It is you that doesn't see the difference.
It was the “HolySpirit” speaking through Jesus!Mark 13:11: But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak,
neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the HolySpirit.John:14:24: He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and
the word(HolySpirit) which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.You have to dismiss a lot of Scripture to hold the traditions of men in such high regard; don't you?
The systems of religion and traditions of men communicate
distortions of truth, confusion of mind, and distractions of spirit.YHVH is GOD=117: and to be a Son of his you MUST overcome this world!
Rev.21:7: He that overcometh shall inherit all things;
and “I” “will be”=63 his God(YHVH=63), and he shall be my son. JEHOVAH Son=117Witnessing to the world in behalf of…
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm (Psalm 45:17)
Ed J (Isaiah 49:16 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgEd
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,20:55) Hi WJ, Why do you hold the systems of religion in such high regard?
It is you that doesn't see the difference.
It was the “HolySpirit” speaking through Jesus!
No it was not the Holy Spirit speaking through Jesus when he said “I will raise it up”.Jack has already shown you that the Greek does not allow for that interpretation and Jesus own words here denys what you say…
“No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and **I have power to take it again**. This commandment have I received of my Father“. John 10:18
Are these Jesus own words or not?
Quote (Ed J @ Jan. 26 2010,20:55) Why do you hold the systems of religion in such high regard?
If you keep on with this accusing response then I will cease to have dialogue with you. I am seeking not to be patronizing or condemning and accusative, so I won't continue with those who are!Blessings WJ
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