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Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 26 2010,10:50) TO ALL: Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead.
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.In verse 19 Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Innovative attempts have been made here by several of you to explain the clear meaning of this away. A more valid attemppt was made recently by JustAskin inwhich he noted that verse 22 says that many translations say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The verb ἠγέρθη “was raised” is indeed written in the passive form. But as an intransitive verb it may be also translated in the active form depending upon context.
Quote In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.” Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible to determine with any certainty.
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdfPlease note that the source says that the verb may be translated in the active “He arose'' depending upon context. The context CLEARLY indicates that Jesus would raise up the temple of His body. He said, “In three days I willl raise it up.” The new King James Version translates the verb in verse 22 in the active voice so that it agrees with His statement in verse 19:
Therefore, when He had risen from the dead….
THE MIDDLE FORM OF THE VERB
In Mark 9:31 Jesus used the middle form of the verb. The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon himself or themselves. Jesus said,
For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
Note that the verb is translated in the active voice. But the literal reading would be,
After He is killed He will raise Himself up the third day.
The fact that every single translation renders the middle verb in the active voice is conclusive. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian translates the verb in the active voice:
but despite being killed, he will rise three days later
Boom! Even an anti-trinitarian translation renders the middle verb of Mark 9:31 in the active voice!
Anti-trinitarians argue also that the scriptures expressly declare that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead and they are correct. However, they miss that part in the scripture which says that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him:
…whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, BECAUSE it was not possible that He should be held by it. Acts 2:24
There it is! God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to be held by it. It was Jesus HIMSELF who abolished death:
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9
It is our Savior Jesus Christ Himself who abolished death! It is no wonder that when Thomas saw Him he said, “My Lord and my God!”
thinker
Hi thethinker:Jesus was dead, and so how could he have raised himself from the dead.
What about these scriptures? Don't they make more sense?
Quote Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. Quote Act 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. Quote Act 10:40 Him God raised up on the third day, and showed Him openly, Quote But God raised Him from the dead. Quote Rom 4:24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dea Quote Rom 6:4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. And so, Jack, who raised Jesus from the dead?
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,11:50) Hi TT,
You think the Word of God, the greatest mouthpiece of God, spoke on his own behalf here?
Hi Nick,You have the wording 100% correct!
God bless
Ed J
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgHi thethinker:
I guess I missed your point of this post due to the fact that you begin with the statement that Jesus raised himself from the dead.
Yes, he did overcome sin, death and the grave, because he obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. He was not guilty of sin and therefore, God raised him from the dead.
And so, what is your point? How does this prove the “trinity doctrine”? I suppose that is what you are trying to prove.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,12:43) Hi TT,
So CAN DO relates just to authority and not power in your opinion?
Nick,The apostle John said that the miracles of Jesus were a manifestation of His glory. Not the Father's glory but HIS OWN GLORY.
This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. John 2:11
The word “glory” here refers to His power. The miracles of Jesus manifested His own power. When Jesus said that He could do nothing on His own He meant that He could do nothing on His own authority. In other words, He could not manifest His power independently of His Father's will. Of course this was not true after He was exalted. In His exalted postion He may do whatosever He Himself wills (Matthew 11:27).
The miracles of the apostles testified to their calling and apostleship. But the miracles of Jesus testified to His own glory and power. Why the difference Nick? John said that the miracles of Jesus manifested His glory and His disciples “believed in Him.”
thinker
Hi TT,
Nope he didn't say that.
He said he saw his glory but you have added your own ideas in.So He was an nonexalted god to you for a time??
Marty said:
Quote esus was dead, and so how could he have raised himself from the dead. Come on Marty! Have you not read the Trinity 2 thread the past couple of days. I answer it all there. Jesus went down to hades ALIVE. It was only His body that died. Geez!
I answered your proof texts in the opening post here. God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible that Jesus be held by death. It was not possible that Jesus be held by death because He Himself abolished death. See the scriptures I give in the opening post.
thinker
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,13:30) Hi TT,
Nope he didn't say that.
He said he saw his glory but you have added your own ideas in.So He was an nonexalted god to you for a time??
Nick,So you admit then that the miracles of Jesus were a manifestation of HIS glory. That's good! That “glory” changed the water into wine. If that glory was not His power specifically then what was it?
It was never said of the apostles that they manifested their glory when they performed miracles. Their miracles were in the name of Jesus.
You can't avoid this difference Nick!
thinker
Hi TT,
So now you add suppositions and implications and weak logic to your false derivation?
Does it help?Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 26 2010,13:31) Marty said: Quote esus was dead, and so how could he have raised himself from the dead. Come on Marty! Have you not read the Trinity 2 thread the past couple of days. I answer it all there. Jesus went down to hades ALIVE. It was only His body that died. Geez!
I answered your proof texts in the opening post here. God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible that Jesus be held by death. It was not possible that Jesus be held by death because He Himself abolished death. See the scriptures I give in the opening post.
thinker
Hi thethinker:The life of the flesh is in the blood, and therefore, Jesus body was dead, that is for sure. He poured out all of his blood.
The life of the soul is in the spirit, and when Jesus died he said the following:
Quote Luk 23:46 And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, “Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.' [fn] ” Having said this, He breathed His last. Dead men don't preach, and why would he go and preach to those who have already been judged by the flood in Noah's day?
He did preach to those who were dead in their sins while he was alive, speaking by the Holy Ghost, but not after he died. He may have preached also after he was resurrected from the dead.
I know that you are referencing the verses in 1 Peter 3. Following is how the YLT has these scriptures:
Quote 1Pe 3:18 because also Christ once for sin did suffer — righteous for unrighteous — that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit,
1Pe 3:19 in which also to the spirits in prison having gone he did preach,
1Pe 3:20 who sometime disbelieved, when once the long-suffering of God did wait, in days of Noah — an ark being preparing — in which few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water;Here is what preaching to the dead entails. Those who were dead in their trespasses which included me.
Quote 1Pe 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us [fn] in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin,
1Pe 4:2 that he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh for the lusts of men, but for the will of God.
1Pe 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime [fn] in doing the will of the Gentiles–when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
1Pe 4:4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
1Pe 4:5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
1Pe 4:6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,13:55) Hi TT,
So now you add suppositions and implications and weak logic to your false derivation?
Does it help?
Peanut gallery remarks. No substance Nick.thinker
Hi TT,
You offer man's ideas and expect us to take them seriously?
Scripture is truth not that stuff.Marty said:
Quote Dead men don't preach, and why would he go and preach to those who have already been judged by the flood in Noah's day? So you would believe with the Sadducees that the spirit was annihilated after death? You must know that Jesus and Paul His chief apostle did not side with the Sadducees on the afterlife. They sided with the Pharisees who taught that the spirit continued to live after death. The story of the rich mand and Lazarus is an example. It says that the rich man “died” and sent to sheol ALIVE.
As far as preaching to spirits in prison who knows what Jesus preached to them. It certainly would not have been the gospel. And neither did I say that He preached the gospel.
Anyway, you are engaging in all the evasive tactics that anti-christians are so accustomed. Jesus said that He would raise up His own body. You say, “How does this prove His divinity?” All other anti-trinitarians deny that Jesus raised up His own body because it infers His divinity. Yet you ask how it proves His divinity.
Mark 9:31 says, “The third day He shall rise up.” The verb is in the middle voice meaning, “The third day He shall raise Himself up….”
You're being evasive.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 26 2010,05:50) TO ALL: Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead.
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.In verse 19 Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Innovative attempts have been made here by several of you to explain the clear meaning of this away. A more valid attemppt was made recently by JustAskin inwhich he noted that verse 22 says that many translations say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The verb ἠγέρθη “was raised” is indeed written in the passive form. But as an intransitive verb it may be also translated in the active form depending upon context.
Quote In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.” Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible to determine with any certainty.
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdfPlease note that the source says that the verb may be translated in the active “He arose'' depending upon context. The context CLEARLY indicates that Jesus would raise up the temple of His body. He said, “In three days I willl raise it up.” The new King James Version translates the verb in verse 22 in the active voice so that it agrees with His statement in verse 19:
Therefore, when He had risen from the dead….
THE MIDDLE FORM OF THE VERB
In Mark 9:31 Jesus used the middle form of the verb. The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon himself or themselves. Jesus said,
For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
Note that the verb is translated in the active voice. But the literal reading would be,
After He is killed He will raise Himself up the third day.
The fact that every single translation renders the middle verb in the active voice is conclusive. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian translates the verb in the active voice:
but despite being killed, he will rise three days later
Boom! Even an anti-trinitarian translation renders the middle verb of Mark 9:31 in the active voice!
Anti-trinitarians argue also that the scriptures expressly declare that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead and they are correct. However, they miss that part in the scripture which says that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him:
…whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, BECAUSE it was not possible that He should be held by it. Acts 2:24
There it is! God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to be held by it. It was Jesus HIMSELF who abolished death:
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9
It is our Savior Jesus Christ Himself who abolished death! It is no wonder that when Thomas saw Him he said, “My Lord and my God!”
thinker
You might want to look at Mark 14 for another view of the scripture you quote.Mark 14:58(NIV) reads:
Quote “We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'
The one stating this was a false witness but the statement is true as Jesus did create a temple that was not made by man three days after his death. His body was never made by man the I propose he means building is the new covenant. Perhaps someone has better answer.
I believe the lie is in the words “I will destroy”.
Another false witness stated:
Matthew 26:60(NIV) reads:
Quote Finally two came forward and declared, “This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' ”
The reliable account is this one:
John 2:19(NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
Paul taught:
1 Corinthians 3:16-17(NIV) reads:
Quote Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Jan. 26 2010,17:58) Hi TT,
You offer man's ideas and expect us to take them seriously?
Scripture is truth not that stuff.
You have yet to give scripture to refute me. This means that it is you who holds to man's ideas.thinker
Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 26 2010,18:06) Quote (thethinker @ Jan. 26 2010,05:50) TO ALL: Jesus said that He would raise Himself from the dead.
19 Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
20 Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”
21 But He was speaking of the temple of His body. 22 Therefore, when He had risen from the dead, His disciples remembered that He had said this to them; and they believed the Scripture and the word which Jesus had said.In verse 19 Jesus CLEARLY said that He would raise up the temple of His body. Innovative attempts have been made here by several of you to explain the clear meaning of this away. A more valid attemppt was made recently by JustAskin inwhich he noted that verse 22 says that many translations say that Jesus was raised from the dead. The verb ἠγέρθη “was raised” is indeed written in the passive form. But as an intransitive verb it may be also translated in the active form depending upon context.
Quote In the case of this particular verb it is perhaps worth noting that New Testament texts describing the resurrection of Jesus often use this verb in the aorist form ἠγέρθη which may be understood to mean either “he arose” or “he was raised.” Whether or not the verb should be understood as intransitive (“he arose”) or as passive (“he was raised”) depends wholly upon contextual factors and in some instances may be impossible to determine with any certainty.
http://artsci.wustl.edu/~cwconrad/docs/UndAncGrkVc.pdfPlease note that the source says that the verb may be translated in the active “He arose'' depending upon context. The context CLEARLY indicates that Jesus would raise up the temple of His body. He said, “In three days I willl raise it up.” The new King James Version translates the verb in verse 22 in the active voice so that it agrees with His statement in verse 19:
Therefore, when He had risen from the dead….
THE MIDDLE FORM OF THE VERB
In Mark 9:31 Jesus used the middle form of the verb. The middle voice means that the subject is acting upon himself or themselves. Jesus said,
For He taught His disciples and said to them, “The Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of men, and they will kill Him. And after He is killed, He will rise the third day.”
Note that the verb is translated in the active voice. But the literal reading would be,
After He is killed He will raise Himself up the third day.
The fact that every single translation renders the middle verb in the active voice is conclusive. Even the NWT which is anti-trinitarian translates the verb in the active voice:
but despite being killed, he will rise three days later
Boom! Even an anti-trinitarian translation renders the middle verb of Mark 9:31 in the active voice!
Anti-trinitarians argue also that the scriptures expressly declare that it is God who raised Jesus from the dead and they are correct. However, they miss that part in the scripture which says that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him:
…whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, BECAUSE it was not possible that He should be held by it. Acts 2:24
There it is! God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for Him to be held by it. It was Jesus HIMSELF who abolished death:
10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Timothy 1:9
It is our Savior Jesus Christ Himself who abolished death! It is no wonder that when Thomas saw Him he said, “My Lord and my God!”
thinker
You might want to look at Mark 14 for another view of the scripture you quote.Mark 14:58(NIV) reads:
Quote “We heard him say, 'I will destroy this man-made temple and in three days will build another, not made by man.'
The one stating this was a false witness but the statement is true as Jesus did create a temple that was not made by man three days after his death. His body was never made by man the I propose he means building is the new covenant. Perhaps someone has better answer.
I believe the lie is in the words “I will destroy”.
Another false witness stated:
Matthew 26:60(NIV) reads:
Quote Finally two came forward and declared, “This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.' ”
The reliable account is this one:
John 2:19(NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered them, “Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days.”
Paul taught:
1 Corinthians 3:16-17(NIV) reads:
Quote Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and that God's Spirit lives in you? If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him; for God's temple is sacred, and you are that temple.
Kerwin,You are pretexting. John's narrativve EXPLICITLY says that jesus was speaking of the temple of His own body. Then it says that they believed His word AFTER HE WAS RISEN FROM THE DEAD.
The passage was not speaking about the building of a temple but the raising up of a temple on the third day. The disciples believed His word AFTER He had risen from the dead.
Then there is Mark 9:31 which you avoided. It says, “The third day He shall rise up.” The verb is in the middle voice meaning, “The third day He shall raise Himself up….”
thinker
The Thinker,
I do not believe you understand what I was pointing out. Jesus was indeed speaking of his body when he stated destroy this temple but when he stated “I will raise it again in three days” he was speaking of the new covenant.
thinker
Acts 13:30 “But God raised him from the dead”
Rom. 8:11 “But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.”
Of course this don't mean nothing if you don't believe scripture.
Georg
For kerwin
NO, Jesus was not speaking of the new covenant.
The Thinker,
I may have implied in that last thread I am certain of what Jesus meant. I am not. I am merely brainstorming at this time in investigating this mystery. I want to point out that John also tells us that on the day he was resurected Jesus breaths on his students and tells them “Receive the Holy Spirit” and then tells them as “the Father has sent me so I am sending you.” He also tells them if they “forgive anyone his sins they are forgiven and if they do not then forgive them they are not forgiven.”
Please note that my paraphrases of Jesus are close so I placed quotes on them.
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