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To ALL,
Read James 3:8-18.
Acknowledge your brother when he speaks truth.
Read with understanding, respond with grace if you aim to persuade and holy vehemence if you aim to chastise(Even Jesus said of his adversaries 'foolish ones' and 'hypocrites')
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Jan. 31 2010,18:07) Quote (kerwin @ Jan. 30 2010,13:37) To all, Marty brought up a point that I find interesting. The point being that in Luke 23:46 Jesus gives up his spirit to God before dying. I believe that the scripture is stating he gave up the spirit of life that animated his body. I am not sure whether or not this is also the spirit of holiness that is received by believers when they are immersed. I am fairly confident it is not his soul since Adam became a living soul only after God breathed the breath of life in him.
I have my doubts that the spirit of life is also the spirit of righteousness since we do not literally die when we are immersed. On the other hand living by the spirit of righteousness leads to eternal life.
KerwinThose that have recieved the Spirit of Life are already living “Eternal life”!
And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? John 11:26
We are New Creations in Christ (Gal 2:20) and our Spirit/soul will never die for we have already partaken of the Tree of life!
Blessings WJ
Hi:The soul of those who have died in Christ is asleep and not dead, but alive to God. The spirit or the works of righteousness that were done by that person are written in the lamb's book of life.
When the Lord comes for the church, the soul will be raised from that sleep in a spiritual body. God will reward the person according to works of righteousness that he has done.
Love in Christ,
MartyTo all
I don't know how you come to believe that we have a soul, my guess is, it comes from the same source that teaches the trinity.
When the body dies, the spirit/mind ceases to function, but does not die. when the body is resurrected, whether as a spirit being or a human flesh and blood being, the same spirit/mind is united with that body. The body will be new, but not the spirit/mind.Eze 16:53 ¶ When I shall bring again their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, and the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, then will I bring again the captivity of thy captives in the midst of them:
Eze 16:54 That thou mayest bear thine own shame, and mayest be confounded in all that thou hast done, in that thou art a comfort unto them.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Every body will be resurrected with the same spirit/mind, with the same memory of all the good and bad they had done, before they died; and then the learning and repenting begins. It is when you die again, in the lake of fire, when your memory with your body is destroyed for ever.
When as you put it, the Lord comes, it will not be for his church/bride, as they will have been already resurrected. If you believe in a rapture, you believe in a dream. The rapture is preached and promised by ministers who know it will bring people to church.Georg
Gene said:
Quote To ALL……….Jesus did (NOT) raise Himself from the Dead , simple logic should tell you that> If he were (truly) dead as he said he was, then someone else would have to raise Him. I have yet to see anyone raised from the dead. Yakkety yak! You have been instructed that “death” does not mean “cease to exist.” We have proved it!
thinker
Kerwin said”
Quote Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source. JESUS DID NOT ASSIGN A DUAL MEANING TO THE WATER IN THE WELL! HE SPOKE OF TWO KINDS OF WATER!
Neither did Jesus assign a dual meaning to the word “body” when He said that He would raise it up in three days.
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 31 2010,23:36) Kerwin,
Jesus indeed gave up his spirit upon death.He did not 'pretend' to die like Trinitarians say.
He did not go and preach to the dead of Noah's time 'in his own spirit', the sciptures say that it was by means of the Holy Spirit , which also raised him from the dead.
Now, whether he preached to the dead 'after' he was raised is a point if debate. My opinion is , yes, after, not while he was dead.
Belief in Jesus going around talking to the dead, and the dead hearing him in his own spirit, is to start believing in the occult, witches and oracles.
It was by means of the Holy Spirit that Jesus did what he did, not his own.
And, Jesus did not say that he would raise himself from the dead, he said he woudd raise his Temple.
And this is the reason why throughout all the rest of sripture And to the belief of the apostles And by the word of God Amighty Himself, it it written that 'God raised him from the dead
JA,
Define your view of death and prove it from Scripture. Trinitarians do not say that Jesus “pretended” to die. They reject your view of death.Peter explicitly said that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. Where was this prison sir?
JA:
Quote And, Jesus did not say that he would raise himself from the dead, he said he woudd raise his Temple.
Just more anti-trinitarian double talk.JA:
Quote And to the belief of the apostles And by the word of God Amighty Himself, it it written that 'God raised him from the dead'.
Don't forget the “because” clause. It says that God raised Him from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him.whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, BECAUSE it was not possible for him to be held by it, Acts 2:24 YLT
Do you have it now? God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for death to hold Him! JESUS WOULD HAVE COME BURSTING OUT OF HADES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!
Death could not hold Him because He had the power to lay down His life of Himself and to raise it again of Himself.
17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This charge I have received from my Father.”
Did you catch that? Jesus said that He had the authority to “take His life up again.” What part of this do you not understand?
Ren=member also that Jesus used the middle voice form of the verb “ro rise” in Mark 9:31 & 10:34
“…He will raise HIMSELF up the third day.”
The difference between the trinitarian and the anti-trinitarian is that the trinitarian believes it ALL. The anti-trinitarian picks and chooses which scriptures he will believe.
Oh and one more point. Paul said that His resurrection from the dead proved His power as the Son of God:
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans 1:3
Would you like to explain how His resurrection demonstrated His power as the Son of God if He had used no power of His own?
JA:
Quote Trinitarians are merely playing with words because it is impossible for them to talk the truth of Scriptures without denying their misgiven creed, a creed brought about by the eneny of God and the abomination spoken of by Scripture, the Romans
Yakkety yak.thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2010,12:28) Quote (JustAskin @ Jan. 31 2010,23:36) Kerwin,
Jesus indeed gave up his spirit upon death.He did not 'pretend' to die like Trinitarians say.
He did not go and preach to the dead of Noah's time 'in his own spirit', the sciptures say that it was by means of the Holy Spirit , which also raised him from the dead.
Now, whether he preached to the dead 'after' he was raised is a point if debate. My opinion is , yes, after, not while he was dead.
Belief in Jesus going around talking to the dead, and the dead hearing him in his own spirit, is to start believing in the occult, witches and oracles.
It was by means of the Holy Spirit that Jesus did what he did, not his own.
And, Jesus did not say that he would raise himself from the dead, he said he woudd raise his Temple.
And this is the reason why throughout all the rest of sripture And to the belief of the apostles And by the word of God Amighty Himself, it it written that 'God raised him from the dead
JA,
Define your view of death and prove it from Scripture. Trinitarians do not say that Jesus “pretended” to die. They reject your view of death.Peter explicitly said that Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. Where was this prsison sir?
JA:
Quote And, Jesus did not say that he would raise himself from the dead, he said he woudd raise his Temple.
Just more anti-trinitarian double talk.JA:
Quote And to the belief of the apostles And by the word of God Amighty Himself, it it written that 'God raised him from the dead'.
Don't forget the “because” clause. It says that God raised Him from the dead BECAUSE it was not possible for death to hold Him.whom God did raise up, having loosed the pains of the death, BECAUSE it was not possible for him to be held by it, Acts 2:24 YLT
Do you have it now? God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE it was NOT POSSIBLE for death to hold Him! JESUS WOULD HAVE COME BURSTING OUT OF HADES ONE WAY OR THE OTHER!
Death could not hold Him because He had the power to lay down His life of Himself and to raise it again of Himself.
17 For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. 18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again This charge I have received from my Father.”
Did you catch that? Jesus said that He had the authority to “take His life up again.” What part of this do you not understand?
Ren=member also that Jesus used the middle voice form of the verb “ro rise” in Mark 9:31 & 10:34
“…He will raise HIMSELF up the third day.”
The difference between the trinitarian and the anti-trinitarian is that the trinitarian believes it ALL. The anti-trinitarian picks and chooses which scriptures he will believe.
Oh and one more point. Paul said that His resurrection from the dead proved His power as the Son of God:
4 and declared to be the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead. Romans 1:3
Would you like to explain how His resurrection demonstrated His power as the Son of God if He had used no power of His own?
JA:
Quote Trinitarians are merely playing with words because it is impossible for them to talk the truth of Scriptures without denying their misgiven creed, a creed brought about by the eneny of God and the abomination spoken of by Scripture, the Romans
Yallety yak.thinker
JackOnce again an excellent point about the resurrection demonstrating his power!
Jesus body and blood would not see corruption for he was without sin and he is also the one that destroyed the one who had the power of death!
Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; “that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil“; Heb 2:14
This is why many came out of the graves at his resurrection.
Just how in the world did he destroy the power of death if he ceased to exist?
The problem is most men who deny the Trinity are shallow in their understanding of the scriptures and the nature of God, IMO!
Their theology is basically a “birds eye view” of the scriptures. They see the scriptures in one dimension rather than the big picture!
Of course only the Holy Spirit can show us the depths and realms of who Jesus really is!
Blessings WJ
Hi WJ,
He can't find supporting verses to counter the 17 about God raising him.
Can you help?He does not realise God spoke through the WORD.
JWorshippingJesus said:
Quote Just how in the world did he destroy the power of death if he ceased to exist?
Wj,You are correct indeed! The scripture explicitly says that Jesus Himself abolished death:
10and was made manifest now through the manifestation of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who indeed did abolish death, and did enlighten life and immortality through the good news 2 Timothy 1:10 YLT
It says that Christ “indeed did abolish death.”
Yet the anti-trinitarians will persist with their half truths and misrepresentations.
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2010,22:56) Kerwin said” Quote Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source. JESUS DID NOT ASSIGN A DUAL MEANING TO THE WATER IN THE WELL! HE SPOKE OF TWO KINDS OF WATER!
Neither did Jesus assign a dual meaning to the word “body” when He said that He would raise it up in three days.
thinker
So according to you temple does not mean body and water does not mean spirit.Jesus does it again in John 6:26-27
John 6:26-27[NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
By the way you may not be familiar with cultures that believe in magic/miracles. A person could have a jug that is always full of water no matter how much you use. Water that could sate your thirst forever is also possible.
Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 02 2010,06:18) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2010,22:56) Kerwin said” Quote Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source. JESUS DID NOT ASSIGN A DUAL MEANING TO THE WATER IN THE WELL! HE SPOKE OF TWO KINDS OF WATER!
Neither did Jesus assign a dual meaning to the word “body” when He said that He would raise it up in three days.
thinker
So according to you temple does not mean body and water does not mean spirit.Jesus does it again in John 6:26-27
John 6:26-27[NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
By the way you may not be familiar with cultures that believe in magic/miracles. A person could have a jug that is always full of water no matter how much you use. Water that could sate your thirst forever is also possible.
Kerwin,I am not saying that water cannot mean spiritual water. I am saying that the water in the well was not spiritual water and the body which Jesus said He would raise was NOT a spiritual body.
What is it with you anti-trinitarians? If Jesus was the Son of God, then to raise Himself from among the dead was a piece of cake.
thinker
He was raised by the Spirit of God.
Jesus did not say he would raise himself from the dead. He said he would raise 'this Temple'.
Now debate what is meant by 'this temple'.
Nothing to do with anything as such: How long was it before Jesus returned to heaven after he was raised from the dead?
TT
you still a dreamer,you do not know God or the power of God neither the Son of God,
you flip flop between what you do not understand and yet be shaken by the though that it could true.
Jesus is nearly always speaking in the spiritual sense and I would guess that “this Temple” would be a Spiritual Temple, too.
When Jesus died, what did the disciples do – did they continue preaching Christ (I'm asking?).
Did the jews destroy his ministry on his death and he 'raised it up again' on his return??Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 03 2010,01:57) TT, Because he ws dead.
Define “death” sir. Though the body literally dies the spirit does not. The spirit dies to sin:For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. Romans 6:10
Note that Paul said that “the death He died He died TO SIN.”
This cannot be the death of the body because “death to sin” means ALIVE to God:
So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. vs. 11
In the body He literally “died.” But in the spirit He died only to sin but was ALIVE to God.
Please answer my former questions:
1. Why did peter say that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE death could not hold Him? And tell us why anti-trinitarians ignore the “because' part of Peter's startement?
2. Why did Paul say that Christ's resurrection delcared Him to be the Son of God WITH POWER if He exerted no power of His own?
3. Why did Paul tell Timothy that it was Jesus Christ who ABOLISHED DEATH?
4. Why did Jesus use the middle voice form of the verb “to rise” indicating that He would raise Himself from the dead?
When it gets right down to it there are as many scriptures that say that Jesus raised Himself as there are which say that God raised Him. The difference between the trinitarian and the anti-trinitarian is that the trinitarian believes EVERYTHING the Bible says. The anti-trinitarian picks and chooses.
Answer my questions or sit on the side lines and learn.
thinker
Quote (JustAskin @ Feb. 03 2010,02:07) He was raised by the Spirit of God. Jesus did not say he would raise himself from the dead. He said he would raise 'this Temple'.
Now debate what is meant by 'this temple'.
Nothing to do with anything as such: How long was it before Jesus returned to heaven after he was raised from the dead?
40 daysQuote (thethinker @ Feb. 02 2010,19:59) Quote (kerwin @ Feb. 02 2010,06:18) Quote (thethinker @ Feb. 01 2010,22:56) Kerwin said” Quote Jesus did assign another meaning to the word water which is why the Samaritan woman was slow to catch on that he was not speaking of physical water from another source. JESUS DID NOT ASSIGN A DUAL MEANING TO THE WATER IN THE WELL! HE SPOKE OF TWO KINDS OF WATER!
Neither did Jesus assign a dual meaning to the word “body” when He said that He would raise it up in three days.
thinker
So according to you temple does not mean body and water does not mean spirit.Jesus does it again in John 6:26-27
John 6:26-27[NIV) reads:
Quote Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
By the way you may not be familiar with cultures that believe in magic/miracles. A person could have a jug that is always full of water no matter how much you use. Water that could sate your thirst forever is also possible.
Kerwin,I am not saying that water cannot mean spiritual water. I am saying that the water in the well was not spiritual water and the body which Jesus said He would raise was NOT a spiritual body.
What is it with you anti-trinitarians? If Jesus was the Son of God, then to raise Himself from among the dead was a piece of cake.
thinker
thinkerYou remind me of some one that used scripture, in a perverted way, to tempt Jesus.
Psa 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.
Their should not even be a debate of what death is; any one that distorts scripture the way you do should be shunned like the one that tried to tempt Jesus because your agenda is obvious.
Georg
TT,
Death is the separation of the Spirit from the body.
This is not the final death. I am not mixing terms and times. The final death is the death of the Spirit but that is at the end of time.
Please can you post the Scriptres that say that jesus raised himself from the dead as I don't know them, yet!!
TT wrote:
Quote
Please answer my former questions:1. Why did peter say that God raised Jesus from the dead BECAUSE death could not hold Him? And tell us why anti-trinitarians ignore the “because' part of Peter's startement?
The answer is in the question: “GOD” raised Jesus from the dead.
You read it through your own eyes.
You write it with your own hand,
You misinterpret it with your own intent.“Death cannot hold him”: – Death by the Soul came by way of Sin, Sin through Adam – A sinless Soul cannot be held in 'Death'.
Quote
2. Why did Paul say that Christ's resurrection delcared Him to be the Son of God WITH POWER if He exerted no power of His own?Deep sigh…! Because this 'proved' Him, categorically, to be 'The Son of God' as had been declared through the Scriptures, by his own testimony, by the testiony of his good works and by the Father, himself, and through the Holy Spirit.
'With Power': Because he was raised by the Holy Spirit and GIVEN THAT Power by Almighty God, His Father.
This is not read as:
“He was raised WITH HIS OWN POWER” but
“He was raised and Given Power” – “Raised INTO [a position of] Power” (Given a position seated at the right hand of God himself)
[/QUOTE]Quote
3. Why did Paul tell Timothy that it was Jesus Christ who ABOLISHED DEATH?Deeper sigh…! TT, are you really trying to test me?:
Paul was talking figuratively, futuristically. Jesus has conquered death by being raised up by the Holy Spirit to taste death no more. He has become the instrument of resurrection and this WILL HAPPEN so it is a foregone thing.
Of course, ABOLISHED DEATH for those whom are saved…! And finally, [will] Abolish DEATH itself.Quote
4. Why did Jesus use the middle voice form of the verb “to rise” indicating that He would raise Himself from the dead?Where was this – please quote the chapter and verse(s).
The balloon rose up into the sky… The Balloon rose up into the sky under the influence of the helium within.
The balloon says; “I will rise up to the sky, to the clouds” It didn't mention how?Please post the verses so I can see the context.
TT also wrote:
Quote Answer my questions or sit on the side lines and learn.
He wrote this as if he has been asking me a question that I did not answer with accurate knowledge.
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