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WJ,
You said:Quote Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He, him”, the Spirit is a person! Jesus did not use English…sorry. The translators gave the neuter noun for “spirit” a male gender, we can blame them. BTW, to base your beliefs on pronouns that are often misleading translating from Greek to English is a shaky foundation.
Lightenup said to WJ:
Quote Now, according to some trinitarian reasoning that we have had lately, love must be a person, and since we are to abide in love and love is to be in us, and since God is love, love must be God and that would give us yet another separate person of the ummm trinity? No, couldn't be trinity because that would make four separate persons…the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Love. Let's see maybe I'm forgetting some, ok here ya go:
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Love, the Mind, the Purpose…wow, that's a six in one God.Kathi,
Your statement above is ridiculous and it is plain that you just want to be contrary. This proves what I said earlier that we are all here just to argue and you are no different. You are inconsistent too for you say that the expression “let there be light” brought forth the Son. So you must infer that light is a personal attribute of the Son. Love likewise is a personal attribute of God. This is what Keith has been saying and I know that you know what he is saying.Keith has won the debate hands down and now silly talk is all you have left. It is unbecoming that an intelligent lady such as yourself act so silly.
You have abandoned all common sense.
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,16:08) WJ,
You said:Quote Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He, him”, the Spirit is a person! Jesus did not use English…sorry. The translators gave the neuter noun for “spirit” a male gender, we can blame them. BTW, to base your beliefs on pronouns that are often misleading translating from Greek to English is a shaky foundation.
Hi KathiYes like all the others kathi, it gets down to corruption and errors in the translations. Very weak indeed!
Like I said, throw your Nasu away for you do not believe it.
Also, it flies in the face of the hundreds of translators in the many, many translations that know the Greek language and translated accordingly! No credible translation uses the pronoun “It” in the many places the Holy Spirit is spoken of!
Your argument about the pronouns is circular because pronouns are surrounded by verbs, adjectives and adverbs etc which dictate how the pronoun is translated and not by the bias of doctrine!
For example…
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when “it”, the Spirit of truth, is come, “it” will guide you into all truth: for “it” shall not speak of “itself”; but whatsoever “it” shall hear, [that] shall “it” speak: and “ii” will shew you things to come.
Sounds like the twilight zone to me!
There is a translation that does translates it as you imply it should be.
NWT Scary HUH?
But since you mentioned it lets look at some of the words surrounding the questioned pronouns and why the Translators translated it that way.
The above verse says the Spirit of truth will…
”Come”… erchomai, which means…
1) to come
a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the publicThis word is used AV — come 616 times, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1
It is used almost invariably in association with a person in the NT.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Guide”… hodēgeō, which means… 1) to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance toThis word is used AV — lead 3 times, guide 2
100 percent used in association with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Speak”… laleo, which means…
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speakAV — speak 244 times, say 15, tell 12, talk 11, preach 6, utter 4, misc 3, vr speak 1
Almost invariably it involves a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Hear”… akouō, which means…
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understandAV — hear 418 times, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8
Again, almost invariably associated with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Shew” anaggello,
1) to announce, make known
2) to report, bring back tidings, rehearseAV — tell 6 times, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1
100% associated with a person.
While we are at it lets look at the 14th verse.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Glorify” doxazo,
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledgedAV — glorify 54 times, honour 3, have glory 2, magnify 1, make glorious 1, full of glory 1
100% associated with a person.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Receive” lambano,1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
e) to take, to choose, select
f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get backAV — receive 133 times, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17
Almost invariably associated with a person.
I don’t think the translators had an agenda. Do you?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 21 2009,08:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,16:08) WJ,
You said:Quote Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He, him”, the Spirit is a person! Jesus did not use English…sorry. The translators gave the neuter noun for “spirit” a male gender, we can blame them. BTW, to base your beliefs on pronouns that are often misleading translating from Greek to English is a shaky foundation.
Hi KathiYes like all the others kathi, it gets down to corruption and errors in the translations. Very weak indeed!
Like I said, throw your Nasu away for you do not believe it.
Also, it flies in the face of the hundreds of translators in the many, many translations that know the Greek language and translated accordingly! No credible translation uses the pronoun “It” in the many places the Holy Spirit is spoken of!
Your argument about the pronouns is circular because pronouns are surrounded by verbs, adjectives and adverbs etc which dictate how the pronoun is translated and not by the bias of doctrine!
For example…
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when “it”, the Spirit of truth, is come, “it” will guide you into all truth: for “it” shall not speak of “itself”; but whatsoever “it” shall hear, [that] shall “it” speak: and “ii” will shew you things to come.
Sounds like the twilight zone to me!
There is a translation that does translates it as you imply it should be.
NWT Scary HUH?
But since you mentioned it lets look at some of the words surrounding the questioned pronouns and why the Translators translated it that way.
The above verse says the Spirit of truth will…
”Come”… erchomai, which means…
1) to come
a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the publicThis word is used AV — come 616 times, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1
It is used almost invariably in association with a person in the NT.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Guide”… hodēgeō, which means… 1) to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance toThis word is used AV — lead 3 times, guide 2
100 percent used in association with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Speak”… laleo, which means…
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speakAV — speak 244 times, say 15, tell 12, talk 11, preach 6, utter 4, misc 3, vr speak 1
Almost invariably it involves a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Hear”… akouō, which means…
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understandAV — hear 418 times, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8
Again, almost invariably associated with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Shew” anaggello,
1) to announce, make known
2) to report, bring back tidings, rehearseAV — tell 6 times, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1
100% associated with a person.
While we are at it lets look at the 14th verse.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Glorify” doxazo,
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledgedAV — glorify 54 times, honour 3, have glory 2, magnify 1, make glorious 1, full of glory 1
100% associated with a person.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Receive” lambano,1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
e) to take, to choose, select
f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get backAV — receive 133 times, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17
Almost invariably associated with a person.
I don’t think the translators had an agenda. Do you?
Blessings WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,16:45) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 17 2009,23:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,12:42) Hi all In another thread it has been inferred that the Father and the Son are in the believer but it is not the Father and the Son personally! Instead, it is believed that what is in the believer is an amorphous “It” that is personal but is not a person!
Which is ridiculous and IMO disgraces the Spirit of God not to mention it flies in the face of all of the Major translations of scriptures and the translators themselves!
Scriptures tell us clearly….
“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Note: It says the Lord “IS” the Spirit, and yet Is also “the Spirit of the Lord“.
How can the Lord also “be the Spirit” and yet “be the Spirit of the Lord””
Because wherever God is his Spirit is and wherever the Spirit is God is! His Spirit cannot be separated from himself since his Spirit is the same essence of who and what God is and not just what God is.
Now the last time I looked the Lord is a person, therefore if the “Lord is that Spirit” then the Spirit is a person!
Here are kathi's own words which contradict…
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05) The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05) Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”. Either God is in us or he is not! He is not partly in us or halfway in us by some “it”.
Anti-trinitarians want us to believe that this “It” can do all these marvelous things including Love, yet believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person!
The Scriptures clearly teach that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
There is more to come!
Blessings WJ
W.J. Throughout the Bible it says that the Spirit is of God, God's Spirit. It is not separate from the Father, but is of the Father. We receive His Holy Spirit after Baptism when the Minister laid hands on us. Without God”s Holy Spirit we cannot understand the things of God.
Also the trinity is a man made doctrine and the first Christians did not keep it, they did not even know of it. It was a pagan upbringing man who first came up with it. His name was
Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian. Coming out of the Catholic Church and learning how wrong that doctrine is, was a biggy for me. It was not easy for me to leave all our Friends behind. However I have never felt so close to God now. I am forever thankful to God for calling us out of that Church. Even when we called a Priest and asked Him questions about all of this, He said to Georg God is calling you. I found that very ironic, to say the least.
Sorry there is no trinity. I and others have given you many
Scriptures that prove how wrong the trinity is.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi IreneThe Scriptures clearly teach that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
So why don't you address these simple points?
Is the Lord the Spirit or not?
Is your body the Temple of God or not or is it the Temple of an “It”?
Does God dwell in you or not?
How many Spirits do you have?
WJ
W.J. The Spirit is God's Spirit and it lives in us. That is the only way that we understand the things of God, That Spirit is not a person. That is what the trinity teaches. I really can't understand, that you say it is God's Spirit and yet believe in a trinity?
Think about this, if the Spirit would be a person, then He would be the Father of Jesus. That is not so.
We have given you good Scriptures that say that the Father is above all. And Jesus too said:” My Father is greater then I.
All through the Old Testament you find Scriptures that tells us God is one not 3.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ Aug. 20 2009,17:37) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,16:45) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 17 2009,23:28) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,12:42) Hi all In another thread it has been inferred that the Father and the Son are in the believer but it is not the Father and the Son personally! Instead, it is believed that what is in the believer is an amorphous “It” that is personal but is not a person!
Which is ridiculous and IMO disgraces the Spirit of God not to mention it flies in the face of all of the Major translations of scriptures and the translators themselves!
Scriptures tell us clearly….
“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
Note: It says the Lord “IS” the Spirit, and yet Is also “the Spirit of the Lord“.
How can the Lord also “be the Spirit” and yet “be the Spirit of the Lord””
Because wherever God is his Spirit is and wherever the Spirit is God is! His Spirit cannot be separated from himself since his Spirit is the same essence of who and what God is and not just what God is.
Now the last time I looked the Lord is a person, therefore if the “Lord is that Spirit” then the Spirit is a person!
Here are kathi's own words which contradict…
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05) The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer. Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05) Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”. Either God is in us or he is not! He is not partly in us or halfway in us by some “it”.
Anti-trinitarians want us to believe that this “It” can do all these marvelous things including Love, yet believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person!
The Scriptures clearly teach that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
There is more to come!
Blessings WJ
W.J. Throughout the Bible it says that the Spirit is of God, God's Spirit. It is not separate from the Father, but is of the Father. We receive His Holy Spirit after Baptism when the Minister laid hands on us. Without God”s Holy Spirit we cannot understand the things of God.
Also the trinity is a man made doctrine and the first Christians did not keep it, they did not even know of it. It was a pagan upbringing man who first came up with it. His name was
Quintus Septimius Florence Tertullian. Coming out of the Catholic Church and learning how wrong that doctrine is, was a biggy for me. It was not easy for me to leave all our Friends behind. However I have never felt so close to God now. I am forever thankful to God for calling us out of that Church. Even when we called a Priest and asked Him questions about all of this, He said to Georg God is calling you. I found that very ironic, to say the least.
Sorry there is no trinity. I and others have given you many
Scriptures that prove how wrong the trinity is.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi IreneThe Scriptures clearly teach that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
So why don't you address these simple points?
Is the Lord the Spirit or not?
Is your body the Temple of God or not or is it the Temple of an “It”?
Does God dwell in you or not?
How many Spirits do you have?
WJ
W.J. The Spirit is God's Spirit and it lives in us. That is the only way that we understand the things of God, That Spirit is not a person. That is what the trinity teaches. I really can't understand, that you say it is God's Spirit and yet believe in a trinity?
Think about this, if the Spirit would be a person, then He would be the Father of Jesus. That is not so.
We have given you good Scriptures that say that the Father is above all. And Jesus too said:” My Father is greater then I.
All through the Old Testament you find Scriptures that tells us God is one not 3.
Peace and Love Irene
Hi IreneThanks for you canned reply, for you didn't address a single point or answer a single question!
WJ
Hi WJ,
What is the point in working on theological theories if you are not yet one in Christ in the Spirit of his God?Hi WJ,
Moving the deckchairs on the Titanic would not have saved anyone either.
Why not seek to be blessed in the Spirit of the God of Israel?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2009,16:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,16:08) WJ,
You said:Quote Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He, him”, the Spirit is a person! Jesus did not use English…sorry. The translators gave the neuter noun for “spirit” a male gender, we can blame them. BTW, to base your beliefs on pronouns that are often misleading translating from Greek to English is a shaky foundation.
Hi KathiYes like all the others kathi, it gets down to corruption and errors in the translations. Very weak indeed!
Like I said, throw your Nasu away for you do not believe it.
Also, it flies in the face of the hundreds of translators in the many, many translations that know the Greek language and translated accordingly! No credible translation uses the pronoun “It” in the many places the Holy Spirit is spoken of!
Your argument about the pronouns is circular because pronouns are surrounded by verbs, adjectives and adverbs etc which dictate how the pronoun is translated and not by the bias of doctrine!
For example…
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when “it”, the Spirit of truth, is come, “it” will guide you into all truth: for “it” shall not speak of “itself”; but whatsoever “it” shall hear, [that] shall “it” speak: and “ii” will shew you things to come.
Sounds like the twilight zone to me!
There is a translation that does translates it as you imply it should be.
NWT Scary HUH?
But since you mentioned it lets look at some of the words surrounding the questioned pronouns and why the Translators translated it that way.
The above verse says the Spirit of truth will…
”Come”… erchomai, which means…
1) to come
a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the publicThis word is used AV — come 616 times, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1
It is used almost invariably in association with a person in the NT.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Guide”… hodēgeō, which means… 1) to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance toThis word is used AV — lead 3 times, guide 2
100 percent used in association with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Speak”… laleo, which means…
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speakAV — speak 244 times, say 15, tell 12, talk 11, preach 6, utter 4, misc 3, vr speak 1
Almost invariably it involves a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Hear”… akouō, which means…
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understandAV — hear 418 times, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8
Again, almost invariably associated with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Shew” anaggello,
1) to announce, make known
2) to report, bring back tidings, rehearseAV — tell 6 times, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1
100% associated with a person.
While we are at it lets look at the 14th verse.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Glorify” doxazo,
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledgedAV — glorify 54 times, honour 3, have glory 2, magnify 1, make glorious 1, full of glory 1
100% associated with a person.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Receive” lambano,1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
e) to take, to choose, select
f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get backAV — receive 133 times, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17
Almost invariably associated with a person.
I don’t think the translators had an agenda. Do you?
Blessings WJ
WJ,The Holy Spirit is absolutely associated with a person…the Living God, the Father; intimately associated with Him as well!
Kathi
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 20 2009,16:46) Lightenup said to WJ: Quote Now, according to some trinitarian reasoning that we have had lately, love must be a person, and since we are to abide in love and love is to be in us, and since God is love, love must be God and that would give us yet another separate person of the ummm trinity? No, couldn't be trinity because that would make four separate persons…the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Love. Let's see maybe I'm forgetting some, ok here ya go:
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Love, the Mind, the Purpose…wow, that's a six in one God.Kathi,
Your statement above is ridiculous and it is plain that you just want to be contrary. This proves what I said earlier that we are all here just to argue and you are no different. You are inconsistent too for you say that the expression “let there be light” brought forth the Son. So you must infer that light is a personal attribute of the Son. Love likewise is a personal attribute of God. This is what Keith has been saying and I know that you know what he is saying.Keith has won the debate hands down and now silly talk is all you have left. It is unbecoming that an intelligent lady such as yourself act so silly.
You have abandoned all common sense.
thinker
Yes Thinker,
My statement IS ridiculous, that's the point, I was comparing it to the logic that is flowing from your “camp.” It was good of you to notice!I don't want to argue. I want truth.
Kathi
Hi WJ:
Once again, Romans 8:26 may not refer to the Holy Spirit making intercession. In the following verse, relative to speaking in tongues, the Apostle Paul states “my spirit prayeth…”
Quote 1Cr 14:14 For if I pray in an [unknown] tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. And he who searches the heart, and knows the mind of the spirit, and makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God would be Jesus.
Quote Hbr 7:24 But this [man], because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood. Hbr 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Love in Christ,
MartyWJ,
You danced around the most important point of all and that is you have said that The Holy Spirit is God, that Jesus is God and that The Father is God and they are all equal in Power and Authority and together they are One God.
Jesus says you can Blaspheme him and be forgiven
Luke 12
10And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.Mark 3:28-30 (New King James Version)
The Unpardonable Sin
28 “Assuredly, I say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; 29 but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”— 30 because they said, “He has an unclean spirit.”
So how is it that Jesus is equal to the Holy Spirit or One God?
Now what you seem to not understand is according to the scriptures Jesus became a curse:
Galatians 3:12-14 (King James Version)
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
So if Jesus is God would you not be saying that God was made a curse for us? That God became unclean for us?
But to call The Holy Spirit unclean is Blasphemy. Now according to your belief, can part of the trinity be cursed without the other two parts being cursed? Can someone only curse part of God?
You need to understand the more we make this clear to you the less ignorant you become and the more guilty you become of rejecting the truth.
I am addressing this to thinker as well. The old testament clearly says that anyone who blasphemes God shall be put to death so how is it Jesus says that he can be blaphemed and it will be forgiven but in the case of God or The Holy Spirit of God it will not be forgiven ever.
Leviticus 24:14-16 (King James Version)
15 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, Whosoever curseth his God shall bear his sin.
So how can Jesus be your God if you will be forgiven for cursing/Blaspheming him but blaspheming The Holy Spirit of God you will bear that sin without pardon?
Is Jesus a lessor God to you? Or is Jesus like the scripture says just “The Christ i.e. The Anointed, lord i.e. Overseer”
Lightenup said:
Quote Yes Thinker,
My statement IS ridiculous, that's the point, I was comparing it to the logic that is flowing from your “camp.” It was good of you to notice!Kathi,
Nonsense! Even anti-trinitarians speak about love and other abstracts as personal attributes simply incidating the character or nature of a person. This is what Keith was saying. He did not say or even remotely infer that love itself was a person as your post suggested.Quote I don't want to argue. I want truth.
To misrepresent is to argue and to evade truth. Who are you kidding? thethinker has been around a long time.thinker
Hi TT,
The trinity theory has been around for awhile too but the Spirit in Jesus and his brothers did not birth it.
Since about 200 bc this folly has been rampant.bodhitharta said:
Quote But to call The Holy Spirit unclean is Blasphemy. Now according to your belief, can part of the trinity be cursed without the other two parts being cursed? Can someone only curse part of God? Yeap! This is a problem only for the Gnostic.
bodhitharta said:
Quote You need to understand the more we make this clear to you the less ignorant you become and the more guilty you become of rejecting the truth. I am laughing so hard I am choking. You say “we” like Nick and Kathi and Marty are your associates. They believe the gospel but you do not. You are not in their camp-no-not at all. They believe Paul spoke truth and that God has preserved the scriptures for us. You say that Paul was a deceiver and that the scriptures are unreliable because they were tampered with. You raise the quran above the scriptures.
And you have the nerve to tell WJ that he is “guilty.”
thinker
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 21 2009,11:46) bodhitharta said: Quote But to call The Holy Spirit unclean is Blasphemy. Now according to your belief, can part of the trinity be cursed without the other two parts being cursed? Can someone only curse part of God? Yeap! This is a problem only for the Gnostic.
bodhitharta said:
Quote You need to understand the more we make this clear to you the less ignorant you become and the more guilty you become of rejecting the truth. I am laughing so hard I am choking. You say “we” like Nick and Kathi and Marty are your associates. They believe the gospel but you do not. You are not in their camp-no-not at all. They believe Paul spoke truth and that God has preserved the scriptures for us. You say that Paul was a deceiver and that the scriptures are unreliable because they were tampered with. You raise the quran above the scriptures.
And you have the nerve to tell WJ that he is “guilty.”
thinker
Okay, The more the scriptures make it clear to you (and you dig an even deeper hole)thinker! So you are calling the first Christians names? It was in the third Century that the Christian came out of hiding. It was Constantine that ordered an edit and made Christianity the Universal Roman Church. He changed the Sabbath and ordered Sundays a day of worship. ll you did not do so, they died for their believe. We know also that we have the Roman Calendar and not God's. So many things were changed. You believe a doctrine that was instituted by a man, And what does Scripture tell you about a man made doctrine. It is in Math. check it out. We my Husband and I have been around a long time too, that is ridiculous to think that it makes a difference. God can call even a Teenager. And He might even have more truths then any of us. All depends what God's Holy Spirit reveals to a person.
Peace and Love IreneQuote (Cindy @ Aug. 21 2009,12:48) thinker! So you are calling the first Christians names? It was in the third Century that the Christian came out of hiding. It was Constantine that ordered an edit and made Christianity the Universal Roman Church. He changed the Sabbath and ordered Sundays a day of worship. ll you did not do so, they died for their believe. We know also that we have the Roman Calendar and not God's. So many things were changed. You believe a doctrine that was instituted by a man, And what does Scripture tell you about a man made doctrine. It is in Math. check it out. We my Husband and I have been around a long time too, that is ridiculous to think that it makes a difference. God can call even a Teenager. And He might even have more truths then any of us. All depends what God's Holy Spirit reveals to a person.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Bod denies that Jesus was crucified and yet has the audacity to say that WJ is “guilty” for what he believes. I thought that the Father had committed all judgment to the Son. I bet Bod's quran gives him this authority too.It seems as if you like those who deny the crucifixion better than you like trinitarians. Since the Catholic Church believes in the crucifixion of Jesus and you hate the Catholic Church, then go all the way and deny the crucifixion of Jesus with bodhitharta. Why not complete your denunciation of the Catholic Church and become a Muslim?
Marty believes that animal sacrifices will come back and you hate trinitarians more. Day after day this board looks less Christian in many areas of doctrine. So take the beam out of your own eye!
Even if trinitarians are wrong in worshiping Jesus at least they worship the Son of God's love. But when Marty says that animal sacrifices will come back he crucifies God's Son “afresh and puts Him to an open shame.” How can the trinitarian who worships the Son of God's love be more “damned” then the one who crucifies His Son afresh? How can the Muslim who denies that Christ was crucified be more preferable to you than the trinitarian?
WHO GAVE YOU THE GOSPEL: THE TRINITARIAN OR THE MUSLIM?
Where in the Bible was a worshiper of Jesus condemned? Is Thomas in hell?
thinker
Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,19:03) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2009,16:53) Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,16:08) WJ,
You said:Quote Jesus calls the Holy Spirit “He, him”, the Spirit is a person! Jesus did not use English…sorry. The translators gave the neuter noun for “spirit” a male gender, we can blame them. BTW, to base your beliefs on pronouns that are often misleading translating from Greek to English is a shaky foundation.
Hi KathiYes like all the others kathi, it gets down to corruption and errors in the translations. Very weak indeed!
Like I said, throw your Nasu away for you do not believe it.
Also, it flies in the face of the hundreds of translators in the many, many translations that know the Greek language and translated accordingly! No credible translation uses the pronoun “It” in the many places the Holy Spirit is spoken of!
Your argument about the pronouns is circular because pronouns are surrounded by verbs, adjectives and adverbs etc which dictate how the pronoun is translated and not by the bias of doctrine!
For example…
Jhn 16:13 Howbeit when “it”, the Spirit of truth, is come, “it” will guide you into all truth: for “it” shall not speak of “itself”; but whatsoever “it” shall hear, [that] shall “it” speak: and “ii” will shew you things to come.
Sounds like the twilight zone to me!
There is a translation that does translates it as you imply it should be.
NWT Scary HUH?
But since you mentioned it lets look at some of the words surrounding the questioned pronouns and why the Translators translated it that way.
The above verse says the Spirit of truth will…
”Come”… erchomai, which means…
1) to come
a) of persons
1) to come from one place to another, and used both of persons arriving and of those returning
2) to appear, make one's appearance, come before the publicThis word is used AV — come 616 times, go 13, misc 13, vr come 1
It is used almost invariably in association with a person in the NT.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Guide”… hodēgeō, which means… 1) to be a guide, lead on one's way, to guide
2) to be a guide or a teacher
a) to give guidance toThis word is used AV — lead 3 times, guide 2
100 percent used in association with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Speak”… laleo, which means…
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speakAV — speak 244 times, say 15, tell 12, talk 11, preach 6, utter 4, misc 3, vr speak 1
Almost invariably it involves a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Hear”… akouō, which means…
1) to be endowed with the faculty of hearing, not deaf
2) to hear
b) to attend to, consider what is or has been said
c) to understand, perceive the sense of what is said
3) to hear something
a) to perceive by the ear what is announced in one's presence
b) to get by hearing learn
c) a thing comes to one's ears, to find out, learn
d) to give ear to a teaching or a teacher
e) to comprehend, to understandAV — hear 418 times, hearken 6, give audience 3, hearer 2, misc 8
Again, almost invariably associated with a person.
The verse says the Spirit of truth will…
“Shew” anaggello,
1) to announce, make known
2) to report, bring back tidings, rehearseAV — tell 6 times, show 6, declare 3, rehearse 1, speak 1, report 1
100% associated with a person.
While we are at it lets look at the 14th verse.
He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Glorify” doxazo,
1) to think, suppose, be of opinion
2) to praise, extol, magnify, celebrate
3) to honour, do honour to, hold in honour
4) to make glorious, adorn with lustre, clothe with splendour
a) to impart glory to something, render it excellent
b) to make renowned, render illustrious
1) to cause the dignity and worth of some person or thing to become manifest and acknowledgedAV — glorify 54 times, honour 3, have glory 2, magnify 1, make glorious 1, full of glory 1
100% associated with a person.
The Spirit of truth will…
“Receive” lambano,1) to take
a) to take with the hand, lay hold of, any person or thing in order to use it
1) to take up a thing to be carried
2) to take upon one's self
b) to take in order to carry away
1) without the notion of violence, i,e to remove, take away
c) to take what is one's own, to take to one's self, to make one's own
1) to claim, procure, for one's self
a) to associate with one's self as companion, attendant
2) of that which when taken is not let go, to seize, to lay hold of, apprehend
3) to take by craft (our catch, used of hunters, fisherman, etc.), to circumvent one by fraud
4) to take to one's self, lay hold upon, take possession of, i.e. to appropriate to one's self
5) catch at, reach after, strive to obtain
6) to take a thing due, to collect, gather (tribute)
d) to take
1) to admit, receive
2) to receive what is offered
3) not to refuse or reject
4) to receive a person, give him access to one's self,
a) to regard any one's power, rank, external circumstances, and on that account to do some injustice or neglect something
e) to take, to choose, select
f) to take beginning, to prove anything, to make a trial of, to experience
2) to receive (what is given), to gain, get, obtain, to get backAV — receive 133 times, take 106, have 3, catch 3, not tr 1, misc 17
Almost invariably associated with a person.
I don’t think the translators had an agenda. Do you?
Blessings WJ
WJ,The Holy Spirit is absolutely associated with a person…the Living God, the Father; intimately associated with Him as well!
Kathi
Hi KathiQuote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,19:03) WJ, The Holy Spirit is absolutely associated with a person…the Living God, the Father; intimately associated with Him as well!
Kathi
But an “It” cannot be intimately associated with anyone in a personal way?
A person only can be personal!
Its do not Love!
The Holy Spirit does!
WJ
Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 21 2009,14:28) Quote (Cindy @ Aug. 21 2009,12:48) thinker! So you are calling the first Christians names? It was in the third Century that the Christian came out of hiding. It was Constantine that ordered an edit and made Christianity the Universal Roman Church. He changed the Sabbath and ordered Sundays a day of worship. ll you did not do so, they died for their believe. We know also that we have the Roman Calendar and not God's. So many things were changed. You believe a doctrine that was instituted by a man, And what does Scripture tell you about a man made doctrine. It is in Math. check it out. We my Husband and I have been around a long time too, that is ridiculous to think that it makes a difference. God can call even a Teenager. And He might even have more truths then any of us. All depends what God's Holy Spirit reveals to a person.
Peace and Love Irene
Irene,
Bod denies that Jesus was crucified and yet has the audacity to say that WJ is “guilty” for what he believes. I thought that the Father had committed all judgment to the Son. I bet Bod's quran gives him this authority too.It seems as if you like those who deny the crucifixion better than you like trinitarians. Since the Catholic Church believes in the crucifixion of Jesus and you hate the Catholic Church, then go all the way and deny the crucifixion of Jesus with bodhitharta. Why not complete your denunciation of the Catholic Church and become a Muslim?
Marty believes that animal sacrifices will come back and you hate trinitarians more. Day after day this board looks less Christian in many areas of doctrine. So take the beam out of your own eye!
Even if trinitarians are wrong in worshiping Jesus at least they worship the Son of God's love. But when Marty says that animal sacrifices will come back he crucifies God's Son “afresh and puts Him to an open shame.” How can the trinitarian who worships the Son of God's love be more “damned” then the one who crucifies His Son afresh? How can the Muslim who denies that Christ was crucified be more preferable to you than the trinitarian?
WHO GAVE YOU THE GOSPEL: THE TRINITARIAN OR THE MUSLIM?
Where in the Bible was a worshiper of Jesus condemned? Is Thomas in hell?
thinker
The Christian religion was hi-jacked but God still revealed the truth to those Christians that loved God more than the traditions of men.The trinitarians used the Gospel to lead the sheep of God to slaughter confessing their sins to men and calling them Father.
Matthew 23:8-10 (King James Version)
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
but was Paul the trinitarian enabler say
1 Corinthians 4:14-16 (King James Version)
14 I write not these things to shame you, but as my beloved sons I warn you.
15 For though ye have ten thousand instructers in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel.
16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me.
Paul says he is their Father and now we have priests who millions of Christians call Father.
The Catholic Church and its offshoots used the Gospel as a trojan horse filled with paganism and Idolatry
Do you worship the cross like millions of Christians, TT?
The other day I went to a website called prophecytalk and they had a thread about the deity of Christ after I debated with them for a few days the Moderator politely emailed me and told me that Jesus is God and I should not debate it, So I asked why was there a thread about the deity of Christ in the debate section of the site if it was not to be debated and why was I singled out to not debate it. I testified by The Power and The Authority of The Holy Spirit that Jesus is not God and then told the person I have no choice but to listen to God so should I fear man or God, his answer was to ban me.
The fact is The Holy Spirit and Jesus cannot both be God if one can not be blasphemed and the other can be blasphemed.
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