Did jesus have the same spirit as believers?

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,22:18)

Hi BD,
Human predictions are not prophecy from God.
You follow a man who was not following our God's Spirit but some other.

so you are saying that a Man can predict the division of Christianity?

But the only problem with what you are saying is that a man didn't predict it. In-fact God is saying it, there is no Muhammad said this or that , it is a revelation from God.

How could a man not of God, know the things of God pertaining to the followers of Jesus and their division.

August 19, 2009 at 4:29 pm#141460

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2009,10:52)

Keith,
Thank you for your questions. You ask how come the Spirit can do all those things and not know the Father? The answer is very simple. It is because the Spirit of God is a part of the Father and not a person. The Holy Spirit is definitely intimitely associated with the Father and the Son but not as another person otherwise the Spirit would know the Father and Son and this verse would include the Spirit but it doesn't.

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASU

Hope you day is great,
Kathi

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2009,10:52)

It is because the Spirit of God is a part of the Father and not a person.

So in other words the Lord “WHO IS THE SPIRIT” is not a person?

“THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Cor 6:16

As far as your ridiculous claim that the Spirit doesn't know the Father or the Son I have already shown you that the Spirit has the mind of God…

In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but “THE SPIRIT HIMSELF” intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; Rom 8:26

The Spirit cannot pray to the Father that he does not know.

Also, the Spirit has a will…

“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as *HE WILLS*“. 1 Cor 12:11

Now watch this Kathi…

looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our “GREAT GOD AND SAVIOR, CHRIST JESUS”, Titus 2:13

Notice Kathi that Paul does not mention the Father here, So based on the way you interpret scriptures the Father is not God!

Here it is again…

“THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Your reasoning would make sense if the Spirit is not God, but your reasoning is flawed because as I have shown you the scriptures declare the Spirit is God. The Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are not just “anyone”.

Seriously Kathi, you should just toss the NASB version because you do not believe what it says. In fact your Christology is inline with the JWs who claim Jesus is “a” God and the Spirit is an “it”! The NWT would best suit you, IMO.

If the Spirit that is in you is not God, then God is not dwelling in his Temple!

For where the Spirit of God is, there is God!

Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord. You hem me in–behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain“. “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast“. Ps 139:4-10

Hope you have a good day also!

Blessings WJ

August 19, 2009 at 4:37 pm#141461

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2009,12:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,22:18)

Hi BD,
Human predictions are not prophecy from God.
You follow a man who was not following our God's Spirit but some other.

so you are saying that a Man can predict the division of Christianity?

But the only problem with what you are saying is that a man didn't predict it. In-fact God is saying it, there is no Muhammad said this or that , it is a revelation from God.

How could a man not of God, know the things of God pertaining to the followers of Jesus and their division.

Bo,
Pardon me if I jump in here but if the evil one desires to destroy believers and one of his schemes is to implant false doctrine in the future and divide the believers then he could predict that to come to pass. The evil one is privy to the actions of many because his followers are observing the many, especially believers and he has been around since creation. The evil one has been directing the chaos and can give humans info on what is to come if he gets his way but that is not going to last forever. Christ will step in and put an end to it.

God's love,
Kathi

August 19, 2009 at 4:39 pm#141463

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2009,12:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,22:18)

Hi BD,
Human predictions are not prophecy from God.
You follow a man who was not following our God's Spirit but some other.

so you are saying that a Man can predict the division of Christianity?

But the only problem with what you are saying is that a man didn't predict it. In-fact God is saying it, there is no Muhammad said this or that , it is a revelation from God.

How could a man not of God, know the things of God pertaining to the followers of Jesus and their division.

Hi BD

Why don't you discuss your Muslim religion in a different thread, please?

August 19, 2009 at 4:56 pm#141464

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 20 2009,04:37)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2009,12:17)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,22:18)

Hi BD,
Human predictions are not prophecy from God.
You follow a man who was not following our God's Spirit but some other.

so you are saying that a Man can predict the division of Christianity?

But the only problem with what you are saying is that a man didn't predict it. In-fact God is saying it, there is no Muhammad said this or that , it is a revelation from God.

How could a man not of God, know the things of God pertaining to the followers of Jesus and their division.

God's love,
Kathi

The trinity and other things such as Mary Devotion and praying to saints as well as the worship of relics such as the cross was well established before The Quran gives the prophecy. If God had solidified these things nothing could divide them but if they went astray why do you call it evil that the should be divided when the same thing happened at the tower of babble.

Genesis
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

to also get back on this topic as the Lord God reveals to me at this very moment, we already know that Jesus is not one God with the Holy Spirit of God and that is revealed in this verse:

Matthew 12 (King James Version)

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

This should conclude this matter.

August 19, 2009 at 5:07 pm#141466

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2009,12:56)

to also get back on this topic as the Lord God reveals to me at this very moment, we already know that Jesus is not one God with the Holy Spirit of God and that is revealed in this verse:

Matthew 12 (King James Version)

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

This should conclude this matter.

Hi BD

No proof that Jesus is not God, for the Scriptures declare he is, but it is proof that an “IT” cannot be blasphemed!

August 19, 2009 at 5:15 pm#141467

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 20 2009,03:22)

Mandy said:

Quote

You're a Thinker-come-lately if you think this is about winning and losing.

Keith and I go way back, we're family! There are no winner's or losers, dude. Grow up in the Lord, and instead encourage one another to press on towards the goal.

Mandy,
I wasn't born yesterday Sis. We all do this because we like to argue.

thinker

True, true…. :laugh:

But I hate division among the brother's. We're all here because we love God (or in Stu's case, because he's facinated with those who love God). I dislike being categorized and labeled, and forced into one camp or another. Truth be told, I like to camp around! :;):

Love,
Mandy

August 19, 2009 at 5:41 pm#141468

KangarooJack

Participant

WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:

Quote

Also, the Spirit has a will…

“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as *HE WILLS*”. 1 Cor 12:11

Hi Keith,
Yeah! The Spirit distributed the spiritual gifts according to HIS OWN WILL. It's conclusive bro!

thinker

August 19, 2009 at 6:07 pm#141472

Participant

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

Hi WJ:

You say:

Quote

But you are leaving out some scriptures in you belief!

Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: “BUT YE KNOW HIM; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU”, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.

Do you agree that Jesus is speaking of the Father dwelling within him and will indwell born again believes after his ascension into heaven?

No, for scriptures say Jesus was given the Spirit without measure…

For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for “God gives the Spirit without limit“. John 3:34

Who could give the Father to Jesus without measure?

And the Spirit cannot be the Father because when the Spirit sat upon Jesus in the appearance of a dove, a voice from heaven Spoke.

And the Spirit here cannot be the Father because it says …

“And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *ANOTHER COMFORTER*, that he may abide with you for ever”;

Jesus words are meaningless if he is praying to the Father to send himself and then call the Father “ANOTHER COMFORTER”.

Why would he not just pray that the Father would come and dwell within us?

The problem you have also is that Jesus also sent the “Comforter” from the Father!

But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit,”WHOM THE FATHER WILL SEND IN MY NAME”, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26

“When the Counselor comes, “WHOM I WILL SEND TO YOU FROM THE FATHER”, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. John 15:26

If Jesus is sending the Comforter “from the Father” then he cannot be the Father!

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

And you ask about the following:

Quote

And this…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?

Does the Father have to hear before he speaks?

You question, Does the Father take from Jesus and give unto us is answered by the last verse of the scripture that you quoted “15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”

God in exalting Jesus to His right hand has given him all power over heaven and earth. He is God's heir, and so he says ALL THINGS THAT THE FATHER HATH ARE MINE, THEREFORE SAID I, THAT HE SHALL TAKE OF MINE, AND SHALL SHEW IT UNTO YOU

Huh? This scripture also says that “he shall *receive” of mine, (Jesus)”,.

Does the Father receive from Jesus?

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

And your question does the Father have to hear before he speaks, No he does not …

But this scripture says… “but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak”…which means that the Spirit is acting only on what he hears. This cannot be the Father.

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

…, but He has already spoken to us through Jesus and so, is not speaking any thing new in the scriptures, but showing us what has already been said. Jesus watches over the Word that has been spoken to perform it.

No Jesus is the Word and is the one who is speaking what the Father says and the Spirit is speaking what he hears the Father and the Son speak!

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

Jesus said:

Quote

Jhn 15:1 ¶ I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Jhn 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every [branch] that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

Your point is?

The husbandman is “One” with the vine!

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

And about the following:

Quote

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Matt 28:19

The name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit was not given to an “IT”.

What is the name of the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit, WJ? It appears that it is speaking of “one name”, and not three different names. Also, you know that there is some question about whether or not this scripture was in the original manuscripts.

Of course, when it does not agree with your doctrine then the scriptures have been tampered with.

No Marty, Matthew 28:19 is found in over 5000 thousand manuscripts both in the Byzantine and the NU text.

Quote (942767 @ Aug. 18 2009,19:41)

And you ask me:

Quote

So does God live in you body which is his Temple Marty?

Yes, God dwells within me by His Holy Spirit as my helper, and He dwells within me as I learn to apply the doctrine of Christ to my life (the spirit of His Son). You kno
w that old song, “It is no longer I that liveth but Christ that liveth in me”.

Love in Christ,
Marty

Ok, It looks like what you just said is “God (the Father) dwells within me by his Holy Spirit (The Comforter) and… (Christ that liveth in me)”.

So you have the three, Father, Son and the Holy Spirit!

Yet we know we only have “One Spirit” and “One God” living in our Temple!

August 19, 2009 at 7:27 pm#141479

NickHassan

Participant

Hi not 3,
Brothers do not teach falsehoods.

August 19, 2009 at 7:44 pm#141480

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2009,07:27)

Hi not 3,
Brothers do not teach falsehoods.

Who determines what the falsehoods are that they teach?

The bible…..

You…..

A group of robed, white-bearded men who float 10 inches from the ground?

Seriously, I ask you!

Love,
Mandy

August 19, 2009 at 7:45 pm#141481

Participant

Quote (thethinker @ Aug. 20 2009,05:41)

WorshippingJesus said to Kathi:

Quote

Also, the Spirit has a will…

“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as *HE WILLS*”. 1 Cor 12:11

Hi Keith,
Yeah! The Spirit distributed the spiritual gifts according to HIS OWN WILL. It's conclusive bro!

thinker

It's conclusive only if you happen to be wearing a pair of Trinitarian glasses! :;):

I say this with all due respect, see, because I believe the bible can be and often is interpreted so many different ways!

Love,
Mandy

August 19, 2009 at 7:49 pm#141484

NickHassan

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2009,07:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2009,07:27)

Hi not 3,
Brothers do not teach falsehoods.

Who determines what the falsehoods are that they teach?

The bible…..

You…..

A group of robed, white-bearded men who float 10 inches from the ground?

Seriously, I ask you!

Love,
Mandy

Hi not3,
You are right.
Truth is not found in the mouth of theologians.

It is the Word of God[jn 17.17]

August 19, 2009 at 8:16 pm#141487

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2009,07:49)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 20 2009,07:44)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 20 2009,07:27)

Hi not 3,
Brothers do not teach falsehoods.

Who determines what the falsehoods are that they teach?

The bible…..

You…..

A group of robed, white-bearded men who float 10 inches from the ground?

Seriously, I ask you!

Love,
Mandy

Hi not3,
You are right.
Truth is not found in the mouth of theologians.

It is the Word of God[jn 17.17]

Bro,

Unfortunately, the Word of God is not clear. Look at all the children here who are trying to make sense of it!

Love,
Mandy

August 19, 2009 at 8:31 pm#141489

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 18 2009,22:13)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,11:19)

Hi Not3,
Pilate expressed the world's opinion when he asked
“what is truth?”

Jesus gave the answer in Jn 17.17

However opinions override it

Nick………You just brought out a interesting scripture , Notice, Pilot was addressing the concerns of the Jew about Jesus presenting himself as King, but notice what Jesus said Who told you that, the Jews had told Him that, then Jesus went on to say this is THIS REASON I HAVE COME, TO BEAR WITNESS TO THE TRUTH. Pilot Know that Jesus had just denied the claim of him being a King much less a GOD, and went on to say His came to bear witness to the Truth. That is why Pilot did not continue to investigate the claim the Jews claimed him of saying He was a king, but instead moved on to the subject of the truth saying “what is Truth”. Pilot know Jesus was not trying to be a GOD or a KING. IMO

peace and love to you and yours……………..gene

Hi Gene

Why don't you try and read it in context…

Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, “Are you the king of the Jews?” “Is that your own idea,” Jesus asked, “or did others talk to you about me?” “Am I a Jew?” Pilate replied. “It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?” Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place.” “You are a king, then!” said Pilate. Jesus answered, “You are right in saying I am a king“. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.” John 18:33-37

Jesus claims it is his Kingdom and if it was of this world then his “servants” would fight!

In fact like Pilot who did not believe him, all those who do not recieve the King of Kings and Lord of Lords as Jesus said would not listen to the truth!

“Everyone on the side of truth listens to me.“

Amazing!

August 19, 2009 at 8:37 pm#141490

Participant

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 18 2009,21:34)

WJ………..Dump those false TRINITARIAN TEACHINGS, And you will be amazed How simple thing become. Let the mind that was in Christ be in you and you will worship who Jesus worshiped. Jesus lived to the glory of the FATHER ONLY, We must also. IMO

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

LOL

Thats funny!

You have some here that believe the Holy Spirit is the Father, and some here that believe the Holy Spirit is an “IT”, and we have you that believes that the Holy Spirit is an “Intellect” and you tell me to dump my doctrine?

August 19, 2009 at 8:57 pm#141492

NickHassan

Participant

Hi WJ,
Then why do you not believe Jesus when he says he is the Son of God?

August 19, 2009 at 9:40 pm#141493

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2009,05:07)

Quote (bodhitharta @ Aug. 19 2009,12:56)

to also get back on this topic as the Lord God reveals to me at this very moment, we already know that Jesus is not one God with the Holy Spirit of God and that is revealed in this verse:

Matthew 12 (King James Version)

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

This should conclude this matter.

Hi BD

No proof that Jesus is not God, for the Scriptures declare he is, but it is proof that an “IT” cannot be blasphemed!

Of Course it is.

The Holy Spirit of God is the Spirit that cannot be blaphemed so obviously if you can blaspheme Jesus and be forgiven and cannot blaspheme the Holy Spirit and be forgiven then it stands to reason that they are not equal which is the whole basis of the trinity i.e. a triune God with equal aspects.

If the Holy Spirit of God cannot be blaphemed that would mean God cannot be blasphemed and be forgiven. So Jesus cannot be “God” and equal to the Holy Spirit of God.

So Jesus says in one place The Father is greater he is and then in another place whoever blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven. So you can blaspheme the lesser without Blaspheming the Greater, therefore the greater is of Higher Value and Sovereign as the blaspheming of Jesus does not affect the forgiveness or mercy of God but not even Jesus can help you if you Blaspheme The Holy Spirit not even Jesus can “save” you in this world or the next.

Truly The Father is The Only True God and He gives of His Holy Spirit to whom He pleases.

August 19, 2009 at 9:45 pm#141494

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 20 2009,08:37)

Quote (Gene @ Aug. 18 2009,21:34)

peace and love to you and yours…………………………gene

LOL

Thats funny!

Actually those who are saying the Spirit is an it are saying that “IT” is the Holy Spirit of God The Father and being that “IT” The Holy Spirit of God teaches “IT” is “Intellectual”

But you believe that God gives som of “HIM” another being to whom he wants and yet you say this Spirit has it's own will, if it has it's own will then why is it GIVEN?

August 19, 2009 at 9:50 pm#141496