Did jesus have the same spirit as believers?

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 18 2009,15:41)

Hi LU,
WJ finds it necessary to raise up duststorms that would confuse the ignorant so he can offer his implications as some sort of weak support for his trinity theology that he professionally preaches.

But there are no scriptures thast say God has several persons.

With all due respect Nick, you are forgetting that a zillion other people share Keith's view. They also believe that the scriptures are clear and point towards this conclusion.

The scriptures lend themselves to both views…obviously.

I find that more curious than the actual topic.

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2009 at 4:50 am#141292

https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….y182776

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:29)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 17 2009,20:42)

Hi all

In another thread it has been inferred that the Father and the Son are in the believer but it is not the Father and the Son personally! Instead, it is believed that what is in the believer is an amorphous “It” that is personal but is not a person!

Which is ridiculous and IMO disgraces the Spirit of God not to mention it flies in the face of all of the Major translations of scriptures and the translators themselves!

Scriptures tell us clearly….

“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Note: It says the Lord “IS” the Spirit, and yet Is also “the Spirit of the Lord“.

How can the Lord also “be the Spirit” and yet “be the Spirit of the Lord””

Because wherever God is his Spirit is and wherever the Spirit is God is! His Spirit cannot be separated from himself since his Spirit is the same essence of who and what God is and not just what God is.

Now the last time I looked the Lord is a person, therefore if the “Lord is that Spirit” then the Spirit is a person!

Here are kathi's own words which contradict…

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”.

Found here

Either God is in us or he is not! He is not partly in us or halfway in us by some “it”.

Anti-trinitarians want us to believe that this “It” can do all these marvelous things including Love, yet believe that the Holy Spirit is not a person!

The Scriptures clearly teach that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

There is more to come!

Blessings WJ

I have responded to Keith's apparent confusion here:

Hi Kathi

Confusion? LOL!

This is confusion…

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

The Father and the Son are therefore both in the believer.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,12:05)

Believers do not have the source of the “body of water” within them but they have what is from that “body of water”.

However, is this confusion….?

“NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Confusion is to say that God is something other than his Spirit!

Confusion is to say that an “It” dwells in his Temple, which is the “Temple of God”.

Confusion says that the Father is subservient to the Son! (John 16:13-15)

Confusion says their is more than One Spirit or One God in us, (like a begotten god)!

So why don't you address these simple points?

Is the Lord the Spirit or not?

Is your body the Temple of God or not, or is it the Temple of an “It”?

Does God dwell in you or not?

How many Spirits do you have?

August 18, 2009 at 4:51 am#141293

Participant

Who lives inside of me?

Well, my understanding is that the Father has had a Son named Jesus. This Son is a true and literal Son – he calls out to him, “Abba, Father.”. We are told that because of Jesus, we too can call out to the Father in the same way. Why? Because Jesus is our brother.

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

God's holy spirit binds us all together as one. We are all family; we are all God's children. It is a spirit of unity that binds us. We fellowship with God, Jesus, and each other because we are bound by this spirit of family.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2009 at 5:09 am#141294

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Nick,
You are right. If there were several persons only two of them always knew each other. Read here:

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
NASU

Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again.

Matt 11:27
27 “All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the (second person of the trinity) except the (first person of the trinity); nor does anyone know the (first person of the trinity) except the (second person of the trinity), and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

Now, the term “no one” means no one. So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father??? Did the second person of the trinity have to reveal the first person of the trinity to the third person of the trinity??? I thought that the Spirit knows the deep things of God…hmmm! The Spirit proceeds from the Father yet the Spirit doesn't always know the Father???
NASU

This is yet another verse to suggest that the Holy Spirit is a part of the Father (as a man's spirit is part of the man and not a separate man himself) and not a separate person from the Father and the Son.

Hi Kathi

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Nick,
You are right. If there were several persons only two of them always knew each other.

Then who is this…

Jn 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you *another Comforter*, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: “BUT YE KNOW HIM; FOR HE DWELLETH WITH YOU”, AND SHALL BE IN YOU.

And this…

Jn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Cant be the Father…

for he shall not speak of himself
but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak:
that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Cant be Yeshua…
He shall glorify me:
for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Doesn't the Father speak of himself?
Does the Father have to hear what he speaks?
Does the Father take from Jesus and give to us?
Did Jesus send the Father?
Did Jesus baptize men in the Holy Spirit (Father) and fire?
Yet the scriptures say…
that “NOW THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17
There is only one view that takes all of the scriptures into account, while all others have to cast some aside in order to hold on to their manmade doctrines!
WJ

August 18, 2009 at 5:11 am#141295

Participant

Hi WJ,
The Spirit is of God.
You told us.

August 18, 2009 at 5:38 am#141298

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Nick,
You are right. If there were several persons only two of them always knew each other. Read here:

Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Now, the term “no one” means no one. So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father???

Does the scriptures contradict themselves?

Jesus said…

“No one” has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
. John 6:46

Here we see that “No one” has seen the Father, yet Jesus says he has!

So your argument is fallacious because it is obvious that the Holy Spirit knows the Father and the Son and in fact Jesus said that the Spirit would teach us all things and bring into remembrance all things that he said, and that he would testify of Jesus. (John 14:26, 16:13-16)

Also it is obvious that the Spirit has a mind and a will for the scriptures say…

Likewise “the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities“: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but “the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered“. And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because “the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will“. Rom 8:26, 27

And…

but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit. “The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God“. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? “In the same way **no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God**“. 1 Cor 2:10, 11

So tell me Kathi, based on these scriptures how is it possible for the Spirit not to know the Father and the Son?

Your building straw men arguments will be set on fire by the truth of God's word every time!

August 18, 2009 at 5:39 am#141299

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me?

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

So does God live in your Temple or not?

August 18, 2009 at 7:16 am#141306

Participant

Hi WJ,
God's truth does not include any trinity.

August 18, 2009 at 1:28 pm#141313

Lightenup

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,01:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Nick,
You are right. If there were several persons only two of them always knew each other. Read here:

Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Now, the term “no one” means no one. So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father???

Does the scriptures contradict themselves?

Jesus said…

“No one” has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
. John 6:46

Here we see that “No one” has seen the Father, yet Jesus says he has!

Also it is obvious that the Spirit has a mind and a will for the scriptures say…

And…

So tell me Kathi, based on these scriptures how is it possible for the Spirit not to know the Father and the Son?

Your building straw men arguments will be set on fire by the truth of God's word every time!

Exactly Keith,
The Holy Spirit is not included in these verse of “Knowing the Father or the Son” or “seeing the Father” because the Spirit is not a person like Jesus and the Father but a part of the Father. The spirit is an intimate part of the Father that is controlled by the Father's mind, given information from the Father's mind and then conveyed to us. The Spirit does not speak on its own but is directed by the mind of the Father.

We know that once the Spirit is within the believer, that believer has some control whether to accept or deny what the Spirit can do for them. They can quench the spirit or walk in the Spirit. the Father can comfort us through His Spirit and guide us through His Spirit, and even make intercession for us through His Spirit. The mind of the Spirit is the Father's mind. The Father directs His own Spirit as the Father wills. The Spirit knows the mind of the Father because the Spirit receives the thoughts of the Father and the Father sends that communication on to us through His Spirit. The Spirit is intimate with the mind of God like the water is intimate with the lake bed.

Because the Spirit is sent to dwell within the believer, the believer has potential to allow the Spirit of God to:
love us and to love through us,
give us joy and prompt us to then to express joy to others,
give us patience and prompt us then to express patience to others, give us peace and then to express the peace of God to others,
show us kindness and prompt us to express that kindness to others, show us goodness and prompt us to express that goodness to others, show us gentleness and prompt us to express that gentleness to others,
teach us self-control so that we can express that self-control towards others.

The Spirit is an amazing part of believers. Within believers is the very mind and power of God as it comes THROUGH His Spirit that has been placed within us through His Son. Like I said before, believers, just because the very Spirit of God abides within them, that doesn't mean that it always leads us. Believers do have some say as to whether they are going to allow God's Spirit to lead them or not. God doesn't force us to take advantage of His gift to us but when we do allow God's spirit to take over our lives, we will have all we need and be all we would want to be.

1 Thessalonians 5;19
Quench not the Spirit.

You quoted this:

Quote

You might want to have the King James Bible changed to say “the Spirit himself” instead of “the Spirit itself” in the verse above. :;):

Blessings,
Kathi

August 18, 2009 at 2:08 pm#141318

bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 19 2009,01:28)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,01:38)

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Nick,
You are right. If there were several persons only two of them always knew each other. Read here:

Allow me to substitute “the Father” with the “first person of the trinity” and “the Son” with the “second person of the trinity” and read that again.

Quote (Lightenup @ Aug. 17 2009,23:55)

Now, the term “no one” means no one. So if the Holy Spirit was a separate person with a will and a mind why would “He” not know the Son OR the Father???

Does the scriptures contradict themselves?

Jesus said…

“No one” has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.
. John 6:46

Here we see that “No one” has seen the Father, yet Jesus says he has!

Also it is obvious that the Spirit has a mind and a will for the scriptures say…

And…

So tell me Kathi, based on these scriptures how is it possible for the Spirit not to know the Father and the Son?

Your building straw men arguments will be set on fire by the truth of God's word every time!

1 Thessalonians 5;19
Quench not the Spirit.

You quoted this:

Quote

You might want to have the King James Bible changed to say “the Spirit himself” instead of “the Spirit itself” in the verse above. :;):

Blessings,
Kathi

That was a good post!

It was good that you noticed it saying “itself”

August 18, 2009 at 6:25 pm#141334

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,17:39)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me?

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

So does God live in your Temple or not?

Hi Keith,

As I said, I am counted. What more is needed for God's Spirit to be “in” you. Is it not something that is given from God, himself? Does he not give it as a deposit, guarenteeing our place with Him? What “spirit” do we receive if it is not one of sonship? Surely we must belong to the family before we are asked to the dinner table?

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2009 at 6:30 pm#141335

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,14:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,17:39)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me?

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

So does God live in your Temple or not?

Hi Keith,

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Ok, but it really is a simple yes or no answer!

Does God live in you are not?

August 18, 2009 at 7:02 pm#141340

Participant

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,06:30)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,14:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,17:39)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me?

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

So does God live in your Temple or not?

Hi Keith,

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Ok, but it really is a simple yes or no answer!

Does God live in you are not?

Bro,

I've been following you on this…..

It appears that you are being so strongly led by your Trinitarian docrine, that at times you seem almost desperate to corner someone with your question, “Does God/the Lord live in you or not?”

What is it that you are hoping to accomplish with this question? May I ask, or will I ruin the surprise ending? :;):

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2009 at 7:08 pm#141341

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,15:02)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 19 2009,06:30)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,14:25)

Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Aug. 18 2009,17:39)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,00:51)

Who lives inside of me?

We are adopted siblings to Jesus.

We have the right to be called sons and daughter's of the Most High God, because of Jesus.

It is this spirit of sonship; this spirit of family; this spirit of deposit that I am the Father's child……that lives in me! And because it does, I am counted.

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

So does God live in your Temple or not?

Hi Keith,

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

Ok, but it really is a simple yes or no answer!

Does God live in you are not?

Bro,

I've been following you on this…..

It appears that you are being so strongly led by your Trinitarian docrine, that at times you seem almost desperate to corner someone with your question, “Does God/the Lord live in you or not?”

What is it that you are hoping to accomplish with this question? May I ask, or will I ruin the surprise ending? :;):

Love,
Mandy

OK Mandy

Never mind just forget I asked! ! Like all the anti-trinitarians, when they cannot explain a scripture or answer a simple question they just avoid it and start claiming the Trinty is false.

Guese what Mandy, everyone else here is led by their Arian, Unitarian and Henotheistic doctrine!

August 18, 2009 at 7:11 pm#141342

Participant

Keith,

Like you, all I was asking was a question……but you didn't want to answer it.

What do you hope to gain by my answer? If I say God lives in me, what is your next move?

Love,
Mandy

August 18, 2009 at 7:19 pm#141343

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,16:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 18 2009,15:41)

But there are no scriptures thast say God has several persons.

With all due respect Nick, you are forgetting that a zillion other people share Keith's view. They also believe that the scriptures are clear and point towards this conclusion.

The scriptures lend themselves to both views…obviously.

I find that more curious than the actual topic.

Love,
Mandy

Hi not 3,
Certainly the humanistic religion of the world allows for all reasonable ideas to be accepted as truth.
But our faith is not based on human reason but on the teaching of God in the bible.
There is no trinity taught there.

August 18, 2009 at 7:22 pm#141344

Participant

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 19 2009,07:19)

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,16:47)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ Aug. 18 2009,15:41)

But there are no scriptures thast say God has several persons.

With all due respect Nick, you are forgetting that a zillion other people share Keith's view. They also believe that the scriptures are clear and point towards this conclusion.

The scriptures lend themselves to both views…obviously.

I find that more curious than the actual topic.

Love,
Mandy

“….teaching of God in the bible.”…..has produced more religions than hens can eggs!

August 18, 2009 at 8:12 pm#141348

Participant

Quote (Not3in1 @ Aug. 18 2009,15:11)

Keith,

Like you, all I was asking was a question……but you didn't want to answer it.

What do you hope to gain by my answer? If I say God lives in me, what is your next move?

Love,
Mandy

Hi Mandy

The answer is simple!

Our bodies are the “Temple of God”, for the Bible clearly teaches that God lives in us.

So if God is living in us then the Spirit in us is God!

Our bodies are not the “Temple of an IT”! David said…

Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O Lord. You hem me in–behind and before; you have laid your hand upon me. “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me, too lofty for me to attain“. “Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence? If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there. If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea, even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast“. Ps 139:4-10

He is declaring wherever the Spirit of God is, there is God!

Under the Old Covenant the Tabernacle of Moses, the Temple of David, and the Temple of Solomon is where God dwelt for his people to have a relationship with him.

Under the New Covenant the Lord no longer dwells in a Temple made with mans hands but in his people.

So now the Holy Spirit inspires Paul to write….

Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 2 Cor 6:16

And…

Do you not know that “you are a temple of God“and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 1 Cor 3:16

And…

If any man destroys the “temple of God“, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are. 1 Cor 3:17

And…

Or do you not know that “your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit” who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? 1 Cor 6:19

Notice Paul using the term “temple of God” in 1 Cor 3:17 and a couple of chapters over he uses the term “temple of the Holy Spirit” in 1 Cor 6:19?

We are not “Temples of an it” or some amorphous power!

“THE LORD IS THE SPIRIT“, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 2 Cor 3:17

Kathi says this is complicating things, however it is not complicated at all.

God lives in his people who are his Temple, therefore the Spirit that is in me is the Lord, for the Lord is that Spirit!

August 18, 2009 at 8:14 pm#141349

Participant

Hi WJ,
So the Spirit is never separate from God as you have said so why do you say God's own Spirit is another person again?

August 18, 2009 at 8:16 pm#141351