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Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,18:34) Hi WJ,
If you follow tradition how do you expect to find your way?
Will your trinity god help you?
NHYou claim you know the “Way” and that the inspired scriptures show the “Way” yet when they do not line up with your own doctrines then you cry “Corrupt” like the rest, and then set yourself up as the final authority over the written scritpures.
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,11:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,18:34) Hi WJ,
If you follow tradition how do you expect to find your way?
Will your trinity god help you?
NHYou claim you know the “Way” and that the inspired scriptures show the “Way” yet when they do not line up with your own doctrines then you cry “Corrupt” like the rest, and then set yourself up as the final authority over the written scritpures.
WJ
And Nick also sets himself up as judge over those who dissent. The Father has committed all judgment to Nick.thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,11:12) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Sep. 01 2009,18:34) Hi WJ,
If you follow tradition how do you expect to find your way?
Will your trinity god help you?
NHYou claim you know the “Way” and that the inspired scriptures show the “Way” yet when they do not line up with your own doctrines then you cry “Corrupt” like the rest, and then set yourself up as the final authority over the written scritpures.
WJ
Hi WJ,
We know where truth is to be found but you rely on ideas from outside scripture to preach trinity.
Why is this?Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,06:48) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,14:29) Quote All you have to do is just believe the scriptures as they are written and let the Holy Spirit enlighten your mind without any special pleading or inference and you will know the truth! WJ
If you believe that, this thread could go on indefinitely. These men's private interpretation of the Scriptures is a recipe for disagreement and disunity.
You have to appeal to an infallible interpreter.
Hi CAThe infallable interpreter is the “Spirit of Truth” that will lead us into all truth!
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27
WJ
WJ
Go check your Greek. “You” is plural. He's writing to the church…which by the way has bishops and deacons and servant-leadership with real authority to teach (bind and loose) by Jesus.You can't pull a Scripture out of the whole council of all of the Scriptures. This is bad hermeneutics.
The Spirit of Truth teaches in and through the Church. NOT private individuals. Remember…”no…private interpretation.”
CA said:
Quote Go check your Greek. “You” is plural. He's writing to the church…which by the way has bishops and deacons and servant-leadership with real authority to teach (bind and loose) by Jesus. You can't pull a Scripture out of the whole council of all of the Scriptures. This is bad hermeneutics.
The Spirit of Truth teaches in and through the Church. NOT private individuals. Remember…”no…private interpretation.”
CA,
The “you” is indeed plural. But Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples. You are committing the fallacy of generalization by applying this to the church. This is poor hermeneutics. The Spirit taught in and through the apostles and NOT successively through the church.Under the new covenant we do not need teachers:
Quote For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 11 None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. (Hebrews 8:10-11) Now did you see that? “None shall teach his neighbor or his brother” for “ALL shall know me from the least of them to the greatest of them.”
Bishops, deacons and elders are all old covenant ministers.
thinker
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,19:27) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,06:48) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,14:29) Quote All you have to do is just believe the scriptures as they are written and let the Holy Spirit enlighten your mind without any special pleading or inference and you will know the truth! WJ
If you believe that, this thread could go on indefinitely. These men's private interpretation of the Scriptures is a recipe for disagreement and disunity.
You have to appeal to an infallible interpreter.
Hi CAThe infallable interpreter is the “Spirit of Truth” that will lead us into all truth!
As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit–just as it has taught you, remain in him. 1 John 2:27
WJ
WJ
Go check your Greek. “You” is plural. He's writing to the church…which by the way has bishops and deacons and servant-leadership with real authority to teach (bind and loose) by Jesus.You can't pull a Scripture out of the whole council of all of the Scriptures. This is bad hermeneutics.
The Spirit of Truth teaches in and through the Church. NOT private individuals. Remember…”no…private interpretation.”
Hi CAYour logic is circular, for if what you are saying would mean that the original twelve and those who spoke as the Spirit gave utterance would be the final authority which would nullify your Pope and the Priest as being the authority. And untill you can prove to us unambiguously by history or scriptures that the original twelve transfered this authority to the Catholic Church, then your argument is a red herring.
And in fact would mean that there is no place for the Holy Spirit in the believers life.
Jesus said…
And when “he had called the people unto him” with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. Mark 8:34
The call is to whosoever will, and it is personalized by the words “deny himself” and “take up his cross” and follow him!
Your challenge is to show us where Jesus ever once said to follow men or a religous organization as the final authority.
No man can know Jesus or the Father apart from the Spirit, therfore, we may find encouragement and support among men who are led by the Spirit of God, but Jesus nowhere teaches that our relationship with God can only be through men.
This is one of the false doctrines of the Catholic Church, and that is that we can only come to Christ or have our sins forgiven by a priest or the church!
WJ
Quote CA,
The “you” is indeed plural. But Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples. You are committing the fallacy of generalization by applying this to the church. This is poor hermeneutics. The Spirit taught in and through the apostles and NOT successively through the church.Under the new covenant we do not need teachers:
The “you” that I was responding to was from the epistle of 1 John. So I don't know where you got “Jesus is speaking” from. It was the apostle John speaking to the fathers, young men, and children: The Church!
Do you see that?
Quote Your challenge is to show us where Jesus ever once said to follow men or a religous organization as the final authority. Great. Here you go:
“HE WHO HEARS YOU,HEARS ME” – Luke 10:16
I thought this was important enough to expound more:
We know that Jesus Himself wanted only a gradual revelation of Himself and of His Church and mission. He did not at once say: “Before Abraham was, I am.” Rather, He let the truths be seen gradually, a bit at a time. The fullness of this revelation was to come with the descent of the Holy Spirit, as He Himself said in John 16:13: “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will lead you into all truth.” So here in this Lucan text Jesus begins, but does not complete His commission. He does, on a trial mission, give a teaching authority to the 72 so that he who hears them, hears Jesus. He completed that commission later to Peter and the Twelve, especially in the words recorded in Matthew 16:19:to Peter alone:
“Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and
whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven. Two
fine Protestant scholars, W. F. Albright (in his day often called the Dean
of American Scripture scholars) and C. S. Mann, in “Anchor Bible,
Matthew,” p. 198, write: “Peter's authority to 'bind' or 'release' will be
a carrying out of decisions made in Heaven. His teaching and disciplinary activities will be similarly guided by the Spirit to carry out Heaven's will.” For those words, binding and loosing,were well known in the teaching of the rabbis of the time. Their usual meaning was to impose or remove an obligation by an authoritative decision or teaching. These words of Mt 16:19 were repeated to all what seems to be the twelve in Matthew 18:18. That they were not meant for all disciples but just for the Apostles is confirmed by Mt 28:16-29, explicitly to the Twelve. Earlier, at the Last Supper, in John 13:20 Jesus said to the Twelve: “Amen, amen I say to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me.”Hi CA,
So he was just an early teacher and the catholic church took up the reins and moved off into gross speculation and that was OK?Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,20:40) Quote Your challenge is to show us where Jesus ever once said to follow men or a religous organization as the final authority. Great. Here you go:
“HE WHO HEARS YOU,HEARS ME” – Luke 10:16
Hi CAGuess what? Every believer and follower of Christ can say the same thing!
That is no proof of anything, but just a quick way to drop out!
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,20:44) I thought this was important enough to expound more: We know that Jesus Himself wanted only a gradual revelation of Himself and of His Church and mission. He did not at once say: “Before Abraham was, I am.” Rather, He let the truths be seen gradually, a bit at a time. The fullness of this revelation was to come with the descent of the Holy Spirit, as He Himself said in John 16:13: “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will lead you into all truth.” So here in this Lucan text Jesus begins, but does not complete His commission. He does, on a trial mission, give a teaching authority to the 72 so that he who hears them, hears Jesus. He completed that commission later to Peter and the Twelve, especially in the words recorded in Matthew 16:19:to Peter alone:
“Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and
whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven. Two
fine Protestant scholars, W. F. Albright (in his day often called the Dean
of American Scripture scholars) and C. S. Mann, in “Anchor Bible,
Matthew,” p. 198, write: “Peter's authority to 'bind' or 'release' will be
a carrying out of decisions made in Heaven. His teaching and disciplinary activities will be similarly guided by the Spirit to carry out Heaven's will.” For those words, binding and loosing,were well known in the teaching of the rabbis of the time. Their usual meaning was to impose or remove an obligation by an authoritative decision or teaching. These words of Mt 16:19 were repeated to all what seems to be the twelve in Matthew 18:18. That they were not meant for all disciples but just for the Apostles is confirmed by Mt 28:16-29, explicitly to the Twelve. Earlier, at the Last Supper, in John 13:20 Jesus said to the Twelve: “Amen, amen I say to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me.”
Hi CAI find it rather interesting that you would call on “Protestant” scholars to support what you believe since you do not believe that any “prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation”, (outside of the Catholic Church), and also that “Protestants”, according to you are not of the “True Church” and have no authority to teach the Scriptures which is reserved for “Infallible” Priest or the Pope! So in essence your reference has undermined your point!
Still yet, this is not unambiguous proof that the Authority of the Apostles was passed on to the Catholic Church!
Since this thread is about the Spirit of God, the scriptures make no distinction between those who have recieved the Holy Spirit, for it is by the one Spirit that we all have been made to drink of and by which we are baptised into the Body of Christ, the “True Church” and not a manmade organization!
WJ
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,18:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,20:44) I thought this was important enough to expound more: We know that Jesus Himself wanted only a gradual revelation of Himself and of His Church and mission. He did not at once say: “Before Abraham was, I am.” Rather, He let the truths be seen gradually, a bit at a time. The fullness of this revelation was to come with the descent of the Holy Spirit, as He Himself said in John 16:13: “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will lead you into all truth.” So here in this Lucan text Jesus begins, but does not complete His commission. He does, on a trial mission, give a teaching authority to the 72 so that he who hears them, hears Jesus. He completed that commission later to Peter and the Twelve, especially in the words recorded in Matthew 16:19:to Peter alone:
“Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and
whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven. Two
fine Protestant scholars, W. F. Albright (in his day often called the Dean
of American Scripture scholars) and C. S. Mann, in “Anchor Bible,
Matthew,” p. 198, write: “Peter's authority to 'bind' or 'release' will be
a carrying out of decisions made in Heaven. His teaching and disciplinary activities will be similarly guided by the Spirit to carry out Heaven's will.” For those words, binding and loosing,were well known in the teaching of the rabbis of the time. Their usual meaning was to impose or remove an obligation by an authoritative decision or teaching. These words of Mt 16:19 were repeated to all what seems to be the twelve in Matthew 18:18. That they were not meant for all disciples but just for the Apostles is confirmed by Mt 28:16-29, explicitly to the Twelve. Earlier, at the Last Supper, in John 13:20 Jesus said to the Twelve: “Amen, amen I say to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me.”
Hi CAI find it rather interesting that you would call on “Protestant” scholars to support what you believe since you do not believe that any “prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation”, (outside of the Catholic Church), and also that “Protestants”, according to you are not of the “True Church” and have no authority to teach the Scriptures which is reserved for “Infallible” Priest or the Pope! So in essence your reference has undermined your point!
Still yet, this is not unambiguous proof that the Authority of the Apostles was passed on to the Catholic Church!
Since this thread is about the Spirit of God, the scriptures make no distinction between those who have recieved the Holy Spirit, for it is by the one Spirit that we all have been made to drink of and by which we are baptised into the Body of Christ, the “True Church” and not a manmade organization!
WJ
You don't get it. I'm not “calling on Protestant scholars”. I'm using your own scholars to say basically that even your own people have admitted this.That's all.
Sheesh
The Catholic church is not a man made orgainization unless you are referring to the God-man Jesus Christ.
Hi CA,
Jesus has no relationship with catholicism.
They have given his role away and prefer their traditions.Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,02:55) Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,18:46) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 01 2009,20:44) I thought this was important enough to expound more: We know that Jesus Himself wanted only a gradual revelation of Himself and of His Church and mission. He did not at once say: “Before Abraham was, I am.” Rather, He let the truths be seen gradually, a bit at a time. The fullness of this revelation was to come with the descent of the Holy Spirit, as He Himself said in John 16:13: “When He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will lead you into all truth.” So here in this Lucan text Jesus begins, but does not complete His commission. He does, on a trial mission, give a teaching authority to the 72 so that he who hears them, hears Jesus. He completed that commission later to Peter and the Twelve, especially in the words recorded in Matthew 16:19:to Peter alone:
“Whatever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in heaven, and
whatever you shall loose on earth, shall be loosed also in Heaven. Two
fine Protestant scholars, W. F. Albright (in his day often called the Dean
of American Scripture scholars) and C. S. Mann, in “Anchor Bible,
Matthew,” p. 198, write: “Peter's authority to 'bind' or 'release' will be
a carrying out of decisions made in Heaven. His teaching and disciplinary activities will be similarly guided by the Spirit to carry out Heaven's will.” For those words, binding and loosing,were well known in the teaching of the rabbis of the time. Their usual meaning was to impose or remove an obligation by an authoritative decision or teaching. These words of Mt 16:19 were repeated to all what seems to be the twelve in Matthew 18:18. That they were not meant for all disciples but just for the Apostles is confirmed by Mt 28:16-29, explicitly to the Twelve. Earlier, at the Last Supper, in John 13:20 Jesus said to the Twelve: “Amen, amen I say to you, he who receives the one I send, receives me; he who receives me, receives the One who sent me.”
Hi CAI find it rather interesting that you would call on “Protestant” scholars to support what you believe since you do not believe that any “prophesy of the scripture is of any private interpretation”, (outside of the Catholic Church), and also that “Protestants”, according to you are not of the “True Church” and have no authority to teach the Scriptures which is reserved for “Infallible” Priest or the Pope! So in essence your reference has undermined your point!
Still yet, this is not unambiguous proof that the Authority of the Apostles was passed on to the Catholic Church!
Since this thread is about the Spirit of God, the scriptures make no distinction between those who have recieved the Holy Spirit, for it is by the one Spirit that we all have been made to drink of and by which we are baptised into the Body of Christ, the “True Church” and not a manmade organization!
WJ
You don't get it. I'm not “calling on Protestant scholars”. I'm using your own scholars to say basically that even your own people have admitted this.That's all.
Sheesh
Hi CABut did you not say they were…”Two fine Protestant scholars”?
So in other words you have to take two “invalid witnesses” to prove your point?
Who says we agree with your “invalid witnesses”?
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,02:56) The Catholic church is not a man made orgainization unless you are referring to the God-man Jesus Christ.
Hi CAWhere is the Biblical and Historical link of the Catholic Church to Jesus and the original 12?
WJ
Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,12:37) Quote CA,
The “you” is indeed plural. But Jesus is speaking directly to His disciples. You are committing the fallacy of generalization by applying this to the church. This is poor hermeneutics. The Spirit taught in and through the apostles and NOT successively through the church.Under the new covenant we do not need teachers:
The “you” that I was responding to was from the epistle of 1 John. So I don't know where you got “Jesus is speaking” from. It was the apostle John speaking to the fathers, young men, and children: The Church!
Do you see that?
My mistake. How do you figure that John's statement supports your view that the Church is the interpreter?
This is quite a leap in logic. If John was speaking to fathers, young men and children then he was speaking to ALL and not just an official body in the Church.And what about my point from Hebrews 8?
thinker
Quote (WorshippingJesus @ Sep. 02 2009,19:24) Quote (CatholicApologist @ Sep. 02 2009,02:56) The Catholic church is not a man made orgainization unless you are referring to the God-man Jesus Christ.
Hi CAWhere is the Biblical and Historical link of the Catholic Church to Jesus and the original 12?
WJ
It is replete throughout Scripture, the fathers, the councils.Where would you like me to start?
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