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kerwin
Circumcision was a covenant God had made way back with Abraham.
Gen 17:4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.
Gen 17:7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Gen 17:10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
“The Law” was given to Moses, a totally different covenant.
Exd 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exd 32:15 ¶ And Moses turned, and went down from the mount, and the two tables of the testimony were in his hand: the tables were written on both their sides; on the one side and on the other were they written.
Very seldom do you hear, if ever, that the two tables had more then the ten commandments on it that most people are familiar with. God called them “ten” commandments because to God “ten” means “all” included. Read the book of Leviticus, and you find out what was written on the two tables.
Lev 27:34 ¶ These are the commandments, which the LORD commanded Moses for the children of Israel in mount Sinai.
You may call them tradition, to the Jews they were Law.
That law, Paul had to explain to the Jewish converts, was to bring them to Jesus.Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
Gal 3:26 ¶ For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
It were the Jewish converts that tried to tell the Gentile converts to adhere to the Jewish laws, and Paul had to correct them; and you are right with that.
Georg
George wrote:
Quote Circumcision was a covenant God had made way back with Abraham.
That is true but it is also part of the law of Mosses, Leviticus 12:3.
George wrote:
Quote You may call them traditions; to the Jews they were Law.
Paul refers to them as traditions as well; Galatians 1:14. Mind you that they are traditions established by God for the 12 tribes.
If you look at the definition of tradition at dictionary.com they cover those definitions.
The Jews have divisions in their laws and do not view all violations as immoral.
Here is what Wikipedia states about the subject. I have looked into it some and may do more research as time goes on.
kerwin
Gal 1:14 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.
Paul was a Pharisee, his Pharisees fathers, had added many new regulations and restrictions to the law over the Centuries; those are the tradition Paul is referring to.
In any case, the law, commonly referred to as “the Law of Moses”, the old covenant, was done away when Christ died on the cross. The Jews however, not believing in Christ, continued in the old covenant till 70 AD when their temple was destroyed, and they themselves were scattered all over the world.
Even today, some Jews keep to the old covenant, except for the sacrificing, due to the lack of a temple.Georg
Hi Georg,
The OT law still exists.
It just no longer applies to those Jews who have joined themselves with Jesus.
It still rules over the Jews who have not and they will be judged by it, and it has never applied to gentiles.George wrote:
Quote Paul was a Pharisee, his Pharisees fathers, had added many new regulations and restrictions to the law over the Centuries; those are the tradition Paul is referring to.
Possibly, but he was most likely referring to both as both the “Laws believed revealed by God to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai “ and the “Laws of human origin including Rabbinic decrees, interpretations, customs, etc.” are considered traditions by the twelve tribes. The word “law” and “tradition are interchangeable which is why I directed you to dictionary.com and Wikipedia.
Here is the same word used about Christian traditions which are also mentioned at dictionary.com.
2 Thessalonians 2:15(KJV) reads:
Quote Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
And
2 Thessalonians 3:6(KJV) reads:
Quote Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
George wrote:
Quote In any case, the law, commonly referred to as “the Law of Moses”, the old covenant, was done away when Christ died on the cross.
You are mistaken. It was merely fulfilled by living according to the ways of the spirit of righteousness which is received by those entering the new covenant. Before the coming of the holy spirit one had to do the things required by the law using human effort which is doomed to failure which is why it is written that all sin under the Law. After the coming of the spirit those that believe have the power of God to stop sinning and all things except doing evil are possible for God. In fact it is written:
Romans 2:14(KJV) reads:
Quote (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
And as I pointed out one can only be a doer of the law if the walk according to the ways of the Spirit.
George wrote:
Quote The Jews however, not believing in Christ, continued in the old covenant till 70 AD when their temple was destroyed, and they themselves were scattered all over the world.
That is strange since scripture tells us that the Jewish believers in Jerusalem were zealous of the law and were concerned was leading Jews astray by teaching them to forsake Moses and abandon Jewish customs. Paul and the other leader of the Christian church even acted to put that gossip to death and yet I hear the same gossip from you.
Acts 21:20-24(KJV) reads:
Quote And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law: And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs. What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come. Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them; Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
About the Gentiles it is written:
Acts 21:25(KJV) reads:
Quote As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
I want you to note that the rule against eating the meat of strangled animals is a “Law of human origin including Rabbinic decrees, interpretations, customs, etc.” as it is not explicitly written in scripture.
In addition note is that Paul, in his letters, lists sins that are not listed in the letter to the Gentiles from the leaders of the Christian Church so the list is not all inclusive.
kerwin
Jesus fulfilled the law, no one else did. “Love” is the fulfilling of the law. Out of love, Jesus died for us, he could because he was the only one without sin.
It is not that we don't sin anymore, it is our faith in Jesus Christ that God does not impute sin to us.
Why did the law make nothing perfect? Heb. 7:19; people obeyed it out of fear of punishment. What is different about the new covenant? we are to obey God because we love him, we are not to hurt our neighbor because we love him; that is why Jesus said, love is the fulfilling of the law.
Why would we talk about tradition laws, whose laws are those? only God's laws count, because you can only sin against God's law, not tradition.
I think you mist were I said “Jews NOT believing in Christ”, continued in their ways until 70 AD.
There were also Jewish converts that couldn't let go of what they were used to doing, they tried to tell the GENTILE converts to, circumcise, not eat unclean meat, etc; they were the once Paul had to straighten out.Georg
George,
Have you read and understood the account of Paul’s stop in Jerusalem that is in Acts 21? I ask because it contradicts you by clearly stating that Paul kept the law even as a Christian. It also states just as clearly that he thought that is was just and right that the other Jewish believers did the same and were as such zealous for the law. I added that piece about Gentiles to show that there are different standards for Gentiles though some of that standard comes from the interpretation of the law instead of explicitly from the law.
Paul does teach that Christians, whether Jews or Gentiles, are not under the law but he is not contradicting what he believed to be the case when in Jerusalem. He is speaking about the Holy Spirit which we receive because of the sacrifice of Jesus. We are not under the old covenant because that covenant required human effort to keep it but instead we are under the new covenant which utilizes the power of God to keep all God’s commands.
In Acts 21 we are told that the Jewish believers are “zealous for the law”. I view this as the equivalent of being zealously patriotic though the patriotism is more of an oath to God passed on from one generation of Jews to the next. The oath is that they will obey all God commands them.
Deuteronomy 6:1-2(NIV) reads:
Quote These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess, so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you, and so that you may enjoy long life
That oath does not include Gentiles who are not the children of Israel.
Now as for one stopping to sin it is written:
Galatians 5:16(NIV) reads:
Quote So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.
If you do not gratify the desires of the sinful nature then you do not sin. That is our very obtainable goal as with God all things are possible.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2010,14:18) Hi KW,
Will you know when you stop sinning
in God's eyes?
I am going to speculate and say “no” as Paul wrote:1 Corinthians 4:3-5(KJV) reads:
Quote But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
We should still be careful not to call sin righteousness or righteousness sin. But even if we detect no sin it does not mean that no sin is present as the human heart is deceptive above all things. Jeremiah 17:9
Never the less, we must believe God when he says that he will give righteousness to those that hunger and thirst for it.
Quote (kerwin @ Mar. 11 2010,20:27) Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 11 2010,14:18) Hi KW,
Will you know when you stop sinning
in God's eyes?
I am going to speculate and say “no” as Paul wrote:1 Corinthians 4:3-5(KJV) reads:
Quote But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
We should still be careful not to call sin righteousness or righteousness sin. But even if we detect no sin it does not mean that no sin is present as the human heart is deceptive above all things. Jeremiah 17:9
Never the less, we must believe God when he says that he will give righteousness to those that hunger and thirst for it.
Hey Kerwin:God bless you! Here are a few scriptures that hopefully will cleanse all believers of any sin:Jesus…who taketh away the sin of the world..John 1:29!
…by the law is the knowledge of sin…Rom. 3:20!
…we have been made free from sin…Rom.5:13!
…Jesus manifested to take away our sin…1John 3:5!
….Jesus appeared to put away sin…Heb.9:26!
…we have been made free from sin…Rom. 8:2!
…anyone that commiteth(abide/agrees with)sin, is a servant of sin…John 8:34!
…the blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth us from all sin..1John3:7!
…whosoever is born of God sinneth not…1John 5:18!
…and repentance and remission(forgiveness,pardon,removal)of sins should be preached in Jesus name…Luke24:47!
For me personally, if I still believed I had sin I would be denying Christ and his perfect work of truth. TK
Tim Kraft,
It is true that God cleanses us of all our unrighteousness through faith in Jesus the Anointed and that is why if we sin we confess them instead of concealing them.
kerwin: If we are cleansed through Christ then how do we sin? Is sin something we do? Is sin something we believe.
Would one that believes he is in sin or that he sins unknowingly have a sin consciousness?
If we believe that he has cleansed us from all sin we would not have a sin consciousness. If we have a sin consciousness (or believe we have sin) then we have sin. What else can he do? You are cleansed in Christ or you are a sinner by faith or believing, either way you choose!
Is it true that righteousness with God is by faith, believing that he has made us righteous not by works or actions?
Then also being made clean by the words of God through Jesus also makes us clean and free from sin not according to works or actions.
If my lord says…we are made clean through the words he spoke (John 15:2) then I will not deny the truth, I am cleansed from sin!! TK
Hi TK,
Seek ye first the kingdom then everything else will be added to you.
We cannot cleanse and forgive ourselves.
You cannot save yourself.Tim Kraft wrote:
Quote kerwin: If we are cleansed through Christ then how do we sin? Is sin something we do? Is sin something we believe.
My post was mostly a paraphrase of what John stated in 1 John 2:1 so I will attempt to explain the thoughts behind his words.
Sin is what we do, Romans 2:13, whether we believe it is a sin or not; Isaiah 5:20.
I believe you are confused between the works of man and the works of God. We are not doers of righteousness by the works of ourselves but we are doers of righteousness by the works of God. That is a grace of God to those that believe.
I also believe you are being confused by the fact that those who are ignorant of what sin is are not held fully accountable for their sins therefore the knowledge of sin could be said to bring death.
We are cleansed by Jesus and that cleansing goes by the name of the spirit of righteousness. We certainly must believe we received it if we did. We must also test ourselves to make sure we did receive the holy spirit which is described in Galatians 5:22-23.
Believers must mature and learn to walk by the Spirit and that takes faith and by that faith we learn to put sin to death in our limbs so it does not reign in our mortal body. You cannot put sin to death if you do not acknowledge it and you cannot resist the devil so he will run away if you do not acknowledge you are tempted by evil. Like John I am not saying that man must sin but I am saying if a man does sin then he must not hide from that fact but rather he must confess it so God will cleanse him of the desire to fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
So we are confident we will stop sinning by the power of God but we know that in order to reach that goal we must be honest with ourselves and confess any sins we commit before reaching and maintaining that goal. In this way we will progress toward the goal of being like God in true holiness and righteousness.
John addresses this is in chapters 1 and 2 of 1 John but his way of writing seems to confuse many of us modern students.
Hi KW,
We take thoughts captive and bring down speculations.
The promised land was occupied territory and had to be freed
The mind must be transformed by renewal according to the word of God.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 12 2010,07:05) Hi KW,
We take thoughts captive and bring down speculations.
The promised land was occupied territory and had to be freed
The mind must be transformed by renewal according to the word of God.
NickHave you ever considered taking up poetry?
You're good ad it.Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Mar. 12 2010,07:22) Hi Georg,
Scripture is poetry, a love letter.
Yes, it is a love letter, but it has conditions, and to be loved by the one who wrote it, you have to understand what it says.Georg
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