- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Here is what Jesus Teaches On The Subject.
Matthew 5:17-20(NIV) reads:
Quote “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
I take this scripture as being literal. Being that is so I do not know of “heaven and earth” disappearing. Since that is so and Jesus did not like then it follows that this teaching is binding to this day.
Then we come with this teaching of Paul which clearly appears to conflict with what Jesus teaches.
Ephesians 2:11-22(NIV) reads:
Quote Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” (that done in the body by the hands of men)— remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone. In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord. And in him you too are being built together to become a dwelling in which God lives by his Spirit.
So how can Paul teaching that Jesus abolished the law not conflict with Jesus teaching that he did not come to abolish the law. Hypothetically I am of the opinion that Paul is speaking figuratively to make the point that the barrier between Jews and Aliens “imposed” by the Law has been done away with.
Paul addresses this same barrier elsewhere with these words:
Galatians 2:11-12(NIV) reads:
Quote When Peter came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he was clearly in the wrong. Before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group.
As you can see, Paul was faced with a group of Jews that was segregating themselves from the Gentiles. These Jews seemed to view themselves as more holy than the Gentiles because they followed Jewish traditions. From what I understand those Jews were zealous to keep the command to keep separate from the people of Canaan. Offhand it sounds like they took God’s words out of context.
Hi K,
Why are you spending so much time discussing the Law of the Jews?
We need to learn of the kingdom, our hope.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,08:27) Hi K,
Why are you spending so much time discussing the Law of the Jews?
We need to learn of the kingdom, our hope.
I disagree with you Nick, Kerwin is speaking about a greater issue than just the laws of the Jews he is talking about the laws of our God.The law was not abolished, it was changed.
Hbr 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Georg
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,03:27) Hi K,
Why are you spending so much time discussing the Law of the Jews?
We need to learn of the kingdom, our hope.
I am discussing the teachings of Jesus and his servant Paul. I believe that we are being taught the relationship between the Law and the Spirit and that relationship is important enough that those two individuals decided to teach about it.Hi K,
Paul taught about the OT Law to Jewish converts in Romans and Galatians.
The foolish Galatians wanted to go back under it.
But we gentiles were never under itQuote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 25 2009,06:51) Hi K,
Paul taught about the OT Law to Jewish converts in Romans and Galatians.
The foolish Galatians wanted to go back under it.
But we gentiles were never under it
I believe you are getting confused. Paul was addressing a particular heresy that existed among his churches at that time. The heresy was not consistent with Law of Moses or with the good news of the Kingdom of Heaven. That heresy clearly seems to be that you must become a Jew in order to enter the Kingdom of heave. Jews and Aliens are treated differently under the law as God gave the Jews customs that only they were commanded to do. That heresy was contradictory to living by the spirit and so depended on human effort. Those who walked according to the way of the Spirit follow by nature the commands that apply to Aliens in the Old Testament. He referred to those that followed that heresy “the circumcision group”.Hi K,
What God covenanted with the Israelites is fascinating history and reveals a lot about our God but not applicable to us who were to perish.[Rom2]
It is not a fallback option for us – only the way of Jesus is relevant.Hi K,
Gentiles discussing the Jewish Law is like the folk in the USA discussing the laws of England.
Interesting in some ways but not directly relevant.To all! If you red in Ephesians it tells us that we are under grace and not law of the Old Testament. Nick is right it. Especially the Sabbath . It was a sign between the children of Israel and God.
Exodus 31:16-17.
We are under the new covenant in Jesus Blood. Luke 22:20
In Math. 22:36-40 tells us what we Jesus wants us to do.
IreneNick Hassan wrote:
Quote Why do the gentiles hope to hide behind the Jewish Law?
It was never covenanted with them.You should read the Law of Mosses before jumping to any conclusions. In the King James version of the Old Testament the Hebrew word “ger” has been translated stranger, alien, sojourner, or a variation of the same. In the New Testament the equivalent Greek word “ethnos” has been translated Gentiles, nation, people. This can be confusing to some.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote What God covenanted with the Israelites is fascinating history and reveals a lot about our God but not applicable to us who were to perish.[Rom2]
2 Timothy 3:16-17(NIV) reads:
Quote All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
That does not sound like Paul is teaching that the Old Testament is fascinating history. It sounds like he instead believes it is applicable to live a life according to God’s requirements.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote It is not a fallback option for us – only the way of Jesus is relevant.
2 Timothy 3:14-15(NIV) reads:
Quote But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus
It sounds like the way or Jesus is not that separate from the Law and the Prophets.
Nick Hassan wrote:
Quote Gentiles discussing the Jewish Law is like the folk in the USA discussing the laws of England.
Interesting in some ways but not directly relevant.
Acts 15:28-29(NIV) reads:
Quote It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements: You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things. Farewell.
Strangely enough you will find some of these same requirements apply to Gentiles in the Law of Mosses.
Leviticus 17:10(NV) reads:
wrote:I have pointed our sexual immorality elsewhere. I could not find a prohibition of either eating food sacrificed to idols or eating the flesh of strangled animals though I suspicion I will find the reasons for both in Jewish theology. On the other hand there are some commands to the Gentiles that are in the law of Mosses that the council did not address.
Quote (georg @ Oct. 25 2009,16:16) To all! If you red in Ephesians it tells us that we are under grace and not law of the Old Testament. Nick is right it. Especially the Sabbath . It was a sign between the children of Israel and God.
Exodus 31:16-17.
We are under the new covenant in Jesus Blood. Luke 22:20
In Math. 22:36-40 tells us what we Jesus wants us to do.
Irene
So are you concluding Jesus lied when he stated that he did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets.Is it not more likely that it is by God's grace we receive the Spirit of God and it is by living according to the ways of the Spirit that we carry out the righteous requirements of the Law. In this way Jesus fulfills the Law just as he teaches us.
Quote (kerwin @ Oct. 25 2009,21:26) Quote (georg @ Oct. 25 2009,16:16) To all! If you red in Ephesians it tells us that we are under grace and not law of the Old Testament. Nick is right it. Especially the Sabbath . It was a sign between the children of Israel and God.
Exodus 31:16-17.
We are under the new covenant in Jesus Blood. Luke 22:20
In Math. 22:36-40 tells us what we Jesus wants us to do.
Irene
So are you concluding Jesus lied when he stated that he did not come to abolish the Law and Prophets.Is it not more likely that it is by God's grace we receive the Spirit of God and it is by living according to the ways of the Spirit that we carry out the righteous requirements of the Law. In this way Jesus fulfills the Law just as he teaches us.
You and others that want to keep the Sabbath, need to understand what grace is. You can't be under grace and the Old Testament Law.
Galatians 5:4 ” You have been estranged from Christ, you who
attempt to be justified by law, you have fallen from grace.And in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is a gift from God.
verse 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
verse 10 For we are His workmanship created in Christ Jesus
for good works which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in it.Some might say that we are without any law, but that is not so.
Jesus gave us a new covenant and a new law which it the greatest law.
Math.22:36 read it
Luke 22:20 read it.
If Jesus wanted us to keep the Sabbath don't you think that He would have said so either in Math. or the Sermon on the Mount? But He didn't.
Also Paul in Galatians tells them
Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians who has bewitched you…..
Read on we by faith just like Abraham is accounted worthy by Faith.
All of Galatians is good to explain to us, that we are under faith and not under the Old covenant law. It looks like that I said all of this before, so since I have it down again I will post it again, but this is the last time I will.
Irene
Peace and Love IreneIrene wrote:
Quote You and others that want to keep the Sabbath, need to understand what grace is. You can't be under grace and the Old Testament Law.
You quoted Ephesians 2:8 which explicitly teaches us grace is a gift from God. The Holy Spirit is a gift from God. If you choose to walk according to the way of the Holy Spirit then you will obey the commands in the Law of Mosses. If you are not obeying those commands then you are not living by the Holy Spirit.
I do not speak up in defense of keeping the Sabbath as any particular day because I believe that every day should be given to God. The day of Sabbath on the other hand was a grace to Hebrew people and their visitors in order to grant them one day of rest each day and that idea is good as workaholism is a sin against God. I also admit I may be wrong for regarding every day as the same. The New Testament is certainly not clear on the issue.
Hi K,
These weak ordinances could never make men righteous but only revealed wickedness.
Sin controls those not enlivened by God's Spirit and they needed the Law.
When men concentrate on sin they cannot also be led by love
The Spirit of God empowers men to live by love.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,07:10) Hi K,
These weak ordinances could never make men righteous but only revealed wickedness.
Sin controls those not enlivened by God's Spirit and they needed the Law.
When men concentrate on sin they cannot also be led by love
The Spirit of God empowers men to live by love.
How could the ordinances be weak when the spirit is willing?If One follows the Spirit one defeats the flesh and follows the willing Spirit which out of Love does the will of God.
The Law is perfect Nick therefore be Perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Stop making excuses.
Hi BD,
Man's spirit is unknowingly controlled by the god of this world.
Only the Spirit of God can lead men into real ways of true righteousness.
That spirit flows like a fountain unto eternal life through the Son of God, Jesus Christ.[Jn7]Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 26 2009,07:49) Hi BD,
Man's spirit is unknowingly controlled by the god of this world.
Only the Spirit of God can lead men into real ways of true righteousness.
That spirit flows like a fountain unto eternal life through the Son of God, Jesus Christ.[Jn7]
There is no other God.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
