Did god send jesus to die?

[karmarie]

So Bod when will you turn to the same God of Jesus and be saved?

Have you been Baptised?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 12 2010,23:19)

Hi bod. Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:12) So you must consider Jesus a liar because he says: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:2-4 That they may know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent To know Jesus you must know him as the Apostles and writters of the Scriptures. (Which is different than the Quran) Quote In Fact you call God Himself a liar: Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Isaiah 43:9-11 Obviously this title is exclusive to the ONLY ONE WORTHY to be called GOD. Don't ever get confused and lie on God and HIS Christ again, There is NO god but GOD. Youngs literal translation… “..Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none..”. Is Jehovah in the 99 names of Allah? Is Jesus named as the Son of God? Quote I fear for your soul as you turn to Idols in Vain worship. Thanks for your concern but idols in vain worship? I have no need of idols what are you talking about? Quote God is more than a title. GOD IS GOD and who are you to belittle HIS TITLE and POSITION You should apologize and repent God is YHVH and his Son is Yahshua…Yahshua means Yah saves.

Quote

Youngs literal translation… “..Ye are My witnesses, an affirmation of Jehovah, And My servant whom I have chosen, So that ye know and give credence to Me, And understand that I am He, Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none..”.

What! Did you not read the part that says:

Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none

There you have it proof directly from God that there is no other God as it says in The Quran there is only ALLAH i.e. The God as in Only One.

Why would Hebrew language be used with Arabic people the Jews do not even call God YHVH they say Hashem
—————————————————————–
HaShem is the Hebrew word which pious Jews use instead of the yod-hey-vav-hey (vuvh – YHVH[1]) name, in casual conversations, and literally means The Name. When they encounter this name during prayers or when reading from the Torah, they visualize vuvh and say Adonai. HaShem is used 7484 times in the Tanach[2]. Neither HaShem, nor it's Greek equivalent is ever used in the Nazarean Codicil[3]. The first use, of HaShem, is in:

Bereshit (Genesis) 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When HaShem God made the earth and the heavens–

HaShem means “self existent” or “eternal”, according to Strong’s (3068).

When HaShem revealed His name to Moses, He added “this is my name forever (leolam)”. The word leolam is written in the Torah without a “vav – ו”, and can be read lealeim which means to hide. The Gemarah learns from this that the name of HaShem is not to be read the way it is written.

http://www.betemunah.org/hashem.html
———————————————
What you don't understand is that Islam went in perfect harmony with their Jewish brothers had they been running around like you guys trying to pronounce and argue about the name YHVH Islam would have never made it at all because it is not righteous to use God's name anyway one sees fit. To avoid profaning the name of God calling HIM “The God” encapsulates the monotheistic essence is most proficient, efficient and sufficient and it says in a single word the Shema

Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one

Where do you see that it says Hear o Israel: the Lord our God is one and by the way He has a son?

Where do you see that. Also do you believe that a son should worship his father? Your IDOL is Jesusbecause you worship him in a way you should not: WORSHIP GOD

Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
Revelation 22:8-10

Do you see that conclusion of the entire Bible does it say “Jesus is the only way” no it says “WORSHIP GOD” now I have said to you thousands of times that Jesus is to be honored and lved greatly but God sent him here to GLORIFY GOD and not himself so you do yourself a dis-service and anyone else a dis-service trying to put someone between God and his servants for thou are to have no gods before HIM.

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15)

Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined . And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future

Well, let's see. If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not?

Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth.

Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make.

Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states?

Quote

Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins. We already discussed this.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah b e cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty

How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus?

Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity.

He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues

He did open his mouth and was not silent

He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked”

Now, who is his seed?

and who did he intercede for at that time?

[karmarie]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,03:34)

What! Did you not read the part that says: Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none There you have it proof directly from God that there is no other God as it says in The Quran there is only ALLAH i.e. The God as in Only One. Why would Hebrew language be used with Arabic people the Jews do not even call God YHVH they say Hashem —————————————————————– HaShem is the Hebrew word which pious Jews use instead of the yod-hey-vav-hey (vuvh – YHVH[1]) name, in casual conversations, and literally means The Name. When they encounter this name during prayers or when reading from the Torah, they visualize vuvh and say Adonai. HaShem is used 7484 times in the Tanach[2]. Neither HaShem, nor it's Greek equivalent is ever used in the Nazarean Codicil[3]. The first use, of HaShem, is in: Bereshit (Genesis) 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When HaShem God made the earth and the heavens– HaShem means “self existent” or “eternal”, according to Strong’s (3068). When HaShem revealed His name to Moses, He added “this is my name forever (leolam)”. The word leolam is written in the Torah without a “vav – ו”, and can be read lealeim which means to hide. The Gemarah learns from this that the name of HaShem is not to be read the way it is written. http://www.betemunah.org/hashem.html ——————————————— What you don't understand is that Islam went in perfect harmony with their Jewish brothers had they been running around like you guys trying to pronounce and argue about the name YHVH Islam would have never made it at all because it is not righteous to use God's name anyway one sees fit. To avoid profaning the name of God calling HIM “The God” encapsulates the monotheistic essence is most proficient, efficient and sufficient and it says in a single word the Shema Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one Where do you see that it says Hear o Israel: the Lord our God is one and by the way He has a son? Where do you see that. Also do you believe that a son should worship his father? Your IDOL is Jesusbecause you worship him in a way you should not: WORSHIP GOD Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-10 Do you see that conclusion of the entire Bible does it say “Jesus is the only way” no it says “WORSHIP GOD” now I have said to you thousands of times  that Jesus is to be honored and lved greatly but God sent him here to GLORIFY GOD and not himself so you do yourself a dis-service and anyone else a dis-service trying to put someone between God and his servants for thou are to have no gods before HIM.

Bodhitharta

How long must I bear with you (Jesus's words)

God is YHVH who I love with all of my heart and mind and soul and being I will die if need be to prove my love Jesus is who I follow he leads and guides me to good pasture without him leading me I would be lost.

He has laid down his life for all who are repentent who wish to dwell with him who wish to share the love of the creator in eternal peace truth and righteousness free of suffering. True love within dwelling in safety.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,11:15)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,03:34) What! Did you not read the part that says: Before Me there was no God formed, And after Me there is none There you have it proof directly from God that there is no other God as it says in The Quran there is only ALLAH i.e. The God as in Only One. Why would Hebrew language be used with Arabic people the Jews do not even call God YHVH they say Hashem —————————————————————– HaShem is the Hebrew word which pious Jews use instead of the yod-hey-vav-hey (vuvh – YHVH[1]) name, in casual conversations, and literally means The Name. When they encounter this name during prayers or when reading from the Torah, they visualize vuvh and say Adonai. HaShem is used 7484 times in the Tanach[2]. Neither HaShem, nor it's Greek equivalent is ever used in the Nazarean Codicil[3]. The first use, of HaShem, is in: Bereshit (Genesis) 2:4 This is the account of the heavens and the earth when they were created. When HaShem God made the earth and the heavens– HaShem means “self existent” or “eternal”, according to Strong’s (3068). When HaShem revealed His name to Moses, He added “this is my name forever (leolam)”. The word leolam is written in the Torah without a “vav – ו”, and can be read lealeim which means to hide. The Gemarah learns from this that the name of HaShem is not to be read the way it is written. http://www.betemunah.org/hashem.html ——————————————— What you don't understand is that Islam went in perfect harmony with their Jewish brothers had they been running around like you guys trying to pronounce and argue about the name YHVH Islam would have never made it at all because it is not righteous to use God's name anyway one sees fit. To avoid profaning the name of God calling HIM “The God” encapsulates the monotheistic essence is most proficient, efficient and sufficient and it says in a single word the Shema Hear, O Israel: the Lord our God, the Lord is one Where do you see that it says Hear o Israel: the Lord our God is one and by the way He has a son? Where do you see that. Also do you believe that a son should worship his father? Your IDOL is Jesusbecause you worship him in a way you should not: WORSHIP GOD Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Revelation 22:8-10 Do you see that conclusion of the entire Bible does it say “Jesus is the only way” no it says “WORSHIP GOD” now I have said to you thousands of times  that Jesus is to be honored and lved greatly but God sent him here to GLORIFY GOD and not himself so you do yourself a dis-service and anyone else a dis-service trying to put someone between God and his servants for thou are to have no gods before HIM. Bodhitharta How long must I bear with you (Jesus's words) God is YHVH who I love with all of my heart and mind and soul and being I will die if need be to prove my love Jesus is who I follow he leads and guides me to good pasture without him leading me I would be lost. He has laid down his life for all who are repentent who wish to dwell with him who wish to share the love of the creator in eternal peace truth and righteousness free of suffering. True love within dwelling in safety.

That is the whole point:

You follow Jesus and I follow Jesus to God

To you the way is Jesus and to me Jesus is the way to GOD

Your final destination is Jesus , my destination is to God

You have not crossed the bridge of Jesus so how can you be reconciled to God?

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,11:10)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to bu ild Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus? Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity. He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues He did open his mouth and was not silent He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked” Now, who is his seed? and who did he intercede for at that time?

Hi BD:

If these verses of scripture are not about Jesus then to whom do you say that they apply?

Quote

Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 21:41-43 Matthew 21 # Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again

Quote

John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

He made his grave with the wicked in that he died for the sins of all of humanity. The scripture states that all of us like sheep have gone astray, and God has laid the iniquity of all of us upon him. And so, the wicked are all of us who have practiced sin.

His seed are all who have obeyed God in the OT and all who have come to God through him in the NT.

Quote

Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham 6Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

He made intercession for those who were taking part in crucifying him.

Quote

Luke 23:33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:06)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,11:10) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, an d to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus? Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity. He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues He did open his mouth and was not silent He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked” Now, who is his seed? and who did he intercede for at that time? Hi BD: If these verses of scripture are not about Jesus then to whom do you say that they apply? Quote Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 21:41-43 Matthew 21 # Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: He made his grave with the wicked in that he died for the sins of all of humanity.  The scripture states that all of us like sheep have gone astray, and God has laid the iniquity of all of us upon him.  And so, the wicked are all of us who have practiced sin. His seed are all who have obeyed God in the OT and all who have come to God thr ough him in the NT. Quote Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham 6Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. He made intercession for those who were taking part in crucifying him. Quote Luke 23:33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Love in Christ, Marty

If what you say is true then Jesus has paid the price for ALL whether accept him or not.

God rains on the just and the unjust.

Do you believe this?

Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam?

But most importantly if you believe that Jesus has paid the price of your sins for the purpose of reconciling with God then why are you not reconciled and why do you syill need a mediator?

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,13:18)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,11:10) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore u nderstand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus? Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity. He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues He did open his mouth and was not silent He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked” Now, who is his seed? and who did he intercede for at that time? Hi BD: If these verses of scripture are not about Jesus then to whom do you say that they apply? Quote Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 21:41-43 Matthew 21 # Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: He made his grave with the wicked in that he died for the sins of all of humanity.  The scripture states that all of us l ike sheep have gone astray, and God has laid the iniquity of all of us upon him.  And so, the wicked are all of us who have practiced sin. His seed are all who have obeyed God in the OT and all who have come to God through him in the NT. Quote Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham 6Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. He made intercession for those who were taking part in crucifying him. Quote Luke 23:33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Love in Christ, Marty If what you say is true then Jesus has paid the price for ALL whether accept him or not. God rains on the just and the unjust. Do you believe this? Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam? But most importantly if you believe that Jesus has paid the price of your sins for the purpose of reconciling with God then why are you not reconciled and why do you syill need a mediator?

Hi BD:

The price has been paid for the sins of all of humanity, but God calls a person into a relationship with him through the gospel. It is a choice, and God will not force anyone to obey him. Therefore, if a person does not want to come to God through His provision, they will have to go through a second death which is eternal separation from God. Jesus has paid the price for the first death or spiritual separation from God. All of humanity was separated from God through their transgressions of God's eternal law.

Quote

Ephesians 2 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

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John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

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John 12:47-49 (King James Version) 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

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Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

Yes, God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust because he is merciful and will do everything in His power to save and individual, but door to the ark will be shut on that day when there will not be any more opportunity and judgment day will follow.

What do you mean, Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam? It was by him that sin entered into the world.

I need a mediator because I fall short of perfect obedience.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[karmarie]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,12:57)

That is the whole point: You follow Jesus and I follow Jesus to God To you the way is Jesus and to me Jesus is the way to GOD Your final destination is Jesus , my destination is to God You have not crossed the bridge of Jesus so how can you be reconciled to God?

I remember a song we sang once

Jesus name above all names  Beautifull saviour Living Word Emmanuel God is with us Blessed redeemer Glorious Lord

Reject Jesus reject God,

“He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18).

Jesus said “If you have seen me you've seen the Father”

Why discount what that says?

YHVH Jesus are one

So close you cant sepererate them Just as the Sea is to the River or the Mountains to the hills so they are Or the Sky is to the Earth

You cant see the light without the Sun, The world was in darkness the Spirit of God moved over the Waters and said Let there be light

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God…John 1

Stop downplaying Jesus study learn lean not on your own understanding,  Jesus: hidden from the beginning revealed in these last days through the power of allmighty.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:45)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,13:18) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,11:10) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and sai d, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus? Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity. He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues He did open his mouth and was not silent He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked” Now, who is his seed? and who did he intercede for at that time? Hi BD: If these verses of scripture are not about Jesus then to whom do you say that they apply? Quote Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 21:41-43 Matthew 21 # Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, ev en to them that believe on his name: He made his grave with the wicked in that he died for the sins of all of humanity.  The scripture states that all of us like sheep have gone astray, and God has laid the iniquity of all of us upon him.  And so, the wicked are all of us who have practiced sin. His seed are all who have obeyed God in the OT and all who have come to God through him in the NT. Quote Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham 6Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. He made intercession for those who were taking part in crucifying him. Quote Luke 23:33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Love in Christ, Marty If what you say is true then Jesus has paid the price for ALL whether accept him or not. God rains on the just and the unjust. Do you believe this? Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam? But most importantly if you believe that Jesus has paid the price of your sins for the purpose of reconciling with God then why are you not reconciled and why do you syill need a mediator? Hi BD: The price has been paid for the sins of all of humanity, but God calls a person into a relationship with him through the gospel.  It is a choice, and God will not force anyone to obey him.  Therefore, if a person does not want to come to God through His provision, they will have to go through a second death which is eternal separation from God.  Jesus has paid the price for the first death or spiritual separation from God.  All of humanity was separated from God through their transgressions of God's eternal law. Quote Ephesians 2 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Quote John 12:47-49 (King James Version) 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. . Quote Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death Yes, God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust because he is merciful and will do everything in His power to save and individual, but door to the ark will be shut on that day when there will not be any more opportunity and judgment day will follow. What do you mean, Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam?  It was by him that sin entered into the world. I need a mediator because I fall short of perfect obedience. Love in Christ, Marty

You make Adam more powerful than Jesus or God because you say that Adam brought sin in the world and condemned all men to hell without their believing in him or accepting him in any way

but for Jesus you say a person must do to achieve salvation what was not needed to receive condemnation you leave God powerless to save what Adam caused condemnation to without any effort on any one elses behalf.

I say your view is wrong. Adam is not greater than Jesus or God.

You keep talking about choice but no one had a choice in what Adam did and yet you believe that BLAME was placed upon ALL men and infants without acting or believing anything.

I say your view is wrong. God NEVER in the entire BIBLE says I can only save someone if they believe in someone else. In-fact God says TURN to HIM and be healed.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 12 2010,23:22)

So Bod when will you turn to the same God of Jesus and be saved? Have you been Baptised?

When you say SAME GOD all I do is cringe at your ignorance. There is no other God to Worship.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,16:29)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,12:57) That is the whole point: You follow Jesus and I follow Jesus to God To you the way is Jesus and to me Jesus is the way to GOD Your final destination is Jesus , my destination is to God You have not crossed the bridge of Jesus so how can you be reconciled to God? I remember a song we sang once Jesus name above all names  Beautifull saviour Living Word Emmanuel God is with us Blessed redeemer Glorious Lord Reject Jesus reject God, “He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18). Jesus said “If you have seen me you've seen the Father” Why discount what that says? YHVH Jesus are one So close you cant sepererate them Just as the Sea is to the River or the Mountains to the hills so they are Or the Sky is to the Earth You cant see the light without the Sun, The world was in darkness the Spirit of God moved over the Waters and said Let there be light 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God…John 1 Stop downplaying Jesus study learn lean not on your own understanding,  Jesus: hidden from the beginning revealed in these last days through the power of allmighty.

Why would Jesus be HIDDEN from the beginning?

Your whole theology is on shifting sand.

Also it is not I that is downplaying Jesus you are actually placing false charges upon Jesus alleging that he is equal to God and placing partners with God.

Sometimes some of you sound like you have emnity with God, why do some of you HATE, GOD? I really don't understand it

[karmarie]

bod I used to talk back to you by post answer your questions but today I decided not to say anything unless by prayer and trust guidance always though I used to do that alot there was times when I didnt. So if you dont like anything said in that post dont ask me about it!

Turn to YHVH God and find true peace.

[karmarie]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,16:54)

Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,16:29) bodhitharta,May wrote: Reject Jesus reject God, “He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18). Jesus said “If you have seen me you've seen the Father” Why discount what that says? YHVH Jesus are one So close you cant sepererate them Just as the Sea is to the River or the Mountains to the hills so they are Or the Sky is to the Earth You cant see the light without the Sun, The world was in darkness the Spirit of God moved over the Waters and said Let there be light 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God…John 1 Stop downplaying Jesus study learn lean not on your own understanding,  Jesus: hidden from the beginning revealed in these last days through the power of allmighty. Why would Jesus be HIDDEN from the beginning? Your whole theology is on shifting sand. Also it is not I that is downplaying Jesus you are actually placing false charges upon Jesus alleging that he is equal to God and placing partners with God. Sometimes some of you sound like you have emnity with God, why do some of you HATE, GOD? I really don't understand it

Just a reminder..(who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father and the Son)..(bible)

Quran 4:171: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth.

Quran 5:17-18: “In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”  

Quran 5 :78 “Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle.”

Quran 6:102 “The originator of heavens and earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.

The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of God. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. God confound them! How perverse they are! —Qur’an 9:30

Quran 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” – Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not? Say: “Those who invent a lie against God will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.”

Quran 18:4-5 “Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, “God hath begotten a son”: No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!”

Quran 19:20-35, Jesus praised his birth and then said, “I am the servant of Allah.” And Allah teaches, “It is not for God to take a son unto Him.”  Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. That is the whole truth, which they still doubt. God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need only say: ‘Be,’ and it is.  

Quran 19:88-92 They say: “(God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.”

Say: ‘How then can you be so bewitched?’ We have revealed to them the truth, but they are liars all. Never has God begotten a son, nor is there any other god besides Him. Were this otherwise, each god would govern his own creation, each holding himself above the other. Exalted be God above their falsehoods!
—Qur’an 23:91

Quran 25:2-3 “He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions. Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection.”

Surely they lie when they declare: “Allah has begotten children”.
—Qur'an 37:151

Had it been His will to adopt a son, He would have chosen whom He pleased out of His own Creation.
—Qur'an 39:4

Say:  “If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him”.
—Qur'an 43:82

Quran 72:3-  He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no wife, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinee could tell of Him what is untrue.

Quran 112:1-4 “Proclaim, 'He is the One and only GOD. The Absolute GOD. Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. None equals Him.”

cant you see that?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,19:47)

bod I used to talk back to you by post answer your questions but today I decided not to say anything unless by prayer and trust guidance always though I used to do that alot there was times when I didnt. So if you dont like anything said in that post dont ask me about it! Turn to YHVH God and find true peace.

Why would you say something so ignorant?

You remind me of one Christian of one denomination saying to another of a different denomination “do you know about Jesus”?

Why would you tell someone who prays to Hashem every day that he should turn to Hashem?

You should have prayed before you wrote that, why didn't you take your own advice?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (karmarie @ May 14 2010,00:32)

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,16:54) Quote (karmarie @ May 13 2010,16:29) bodhitharta,May wrote: Reject Jesus reject God, “He that believes on Him is not condemned: but he that believes not is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God” (John 3:18). Jesus said “If you have seen me you've seen the Father” Why discount what that says? YHVH Jesus are one So close you cant sepererate them Just as the Sea is to the River or the Mountains to the hills so they are Or the Sky is to the Earth You cant see the light without the Sun, The world was in darkness the Spirit of God moved over the Waters and said Let there be light 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. The true light, which enlightens everyone, was coming into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him. He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him. But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God…John 1 Stop downplaying Jesus study learn lean not on your own understanding,  Jesus: hidden from the beginning revealed in these last days through the power of allmighty. Why would Jesus be HIDDEN from the beginning? Your whole theology is on shifting sand. Also it is not I that is downplaying Jesus you are actually placing false charges upon Jesus alleging that he is equal to God and placing partners with God. Sometimes some of you sound like you have emnity with God, why do some of you HATE, GOD? I really don't understand it Just a reminder..(who is the antichrist but he who denies the Father and the Son)..(bible) Quran 4:171: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. Quran 5:17-18: “In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. Say: “Who then hath the least power against Allah, if His will were to destroy Christ the son of Mary, his mother, and all every – one that is on the earth? For to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between. He createth what He pleaseth. For Allah hath power over all things.”   Quran 5 :78 “Christ, the Son of Mary, was no more than an apostle.” Quran 6:102 “The originator of heavens and earth! How can He have a child, when there is for Him no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things. The Jews say Ezra is the son of God, while the Christians say the Messiah is the son of God. Such are their assertions, by which they imitate the infidels of old. God confound them! How perverse they are! —Qur’an 9:30 Quran 10:68-70 They say: “God hath begotten a son!” – Glory be to Him! He is self- sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about God what ye know not? Say: “Those who invent a lie against God will never prosper.” A little enjoyment in this world!- and then, to Us will be their return, then shall We make them taste the severest penalty for their blasphemies.” Quran 18:4-5 “Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, “God hath begotten a son”: No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying what they say is nothing but falsehood!” Quran 19:20-35, Jesus praised his birth and then said, “I am the servant of Allah.” And Allah teaches, “It is not for God to take a son unto Him.”  Such was Jesus, the son of Mary. That is the whole truth, which they still doubt. God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need only say: ‘Be,’ and it is.   Quran 19:88-92 They say: “(God) Most Gracious has begotten a son!” Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous! At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin, That they should invoke a son for (God) Most Gracious. For it is not consonant with the majesty of (God) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.” Say: ‘How then can you be so bewitched?’ We have revealed to them the truth, but they are liars all. Never has God begotten a son, nor is there any other god besides Him. Were this otherwise, each god would govern his own creation, each holding himself above the other. Exalted be God above their falsehoods! —Qur’an 23:91 Quran 25:2-3 “He to whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth: no son has He begotten, nor has He a partner in His dominion: it is He who created all things, and ordered them in due proportions. Yet have they taken, besides him, gods that can create nothing but are themselves created; that have no control of hurt or good to themselves; nor can they control death nor life nor resurrection.” Surely they lie when they declare: “Allah has begotten children”. —Qur'an 37:151 Had it been His will to adopt a son, He would have chosen whom He pleased out of His own Creation. —Qur'an 39:4 Say:  “If the Lord of Mercy had a son, I would be the first to worship him”. —Qur'an 43:82 Quran 72:3-  He (exalted be the glory of our Lord!) has taken no wife, nor has He begotten any children. The Blaspheming One among us has uttered a wanton falsehood against God, although we had supposed no man or jinee could tell of Him what is untrue. Quran 112:1-4 “Proclaim, 'He is the One and only GOD. The Absolute GOD. Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten. None equals Him.” cant you see that?

The fact is you misunderstand the issue. God Creates and does not beget, you are not a child of God and neither am I because God does not beget progeny as it says in the Quran.

“God forbid that He Himself should beget a son! When He decrees a thing He need only say: ‘Be,’ and it is. “

Beget=
be·get (b-gt) KEY

TRANSITIVE VERB:
be·got (-gt) KEY , be·got·ten (-gtn) KEY or be·got, be·get·ting, be·gets
To father; sire.

Sire=
1.A father.
2.The male parent of an animal, especially a domesticated mammal such as a horse.

Now I ask you is God the Male parent of Jesus?

In-fact this should settle the matter with you once and for all.

IS GOD A MALE?

This question is for all.

[942767]

Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,16:48)

Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:45) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,13:18) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,13:06) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 13 2010,11:10) Quote (942767 @ May 13 2010,10:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 12 2010,16:15) Quote (942767 @ May 12 2010,12:07) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,19:39) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,15:55) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,15:28) Quote (942767 @ May 08 2010,14:56) Hi BD: You ask: “Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world.  If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome? As I said he overcame sin and death, and I also by walking in his footsteps will overcome, but I could not overcome without the blood that he shed for me to wash away my sins when I fall short of perfect obedience. Who said that I did not have to obey?  I am saved by Faith in what God has done for me in the person of Jesus Christ, but as James says: Quote James  2:14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Do you think these things were not required before Jesus was born? Why is it you think morality became a virtue only after Jesus came. God has always commanded that we be righteous and HE has always said that if we try HE with HIS Mercy would make up the difference. Do you deny that the Mercy of God is dependent upon anything but HIS own WILL? Hi BD: Yes, from the very beginning there were some who obeyed God prior to Jesus being born, but they fell short of perfect obedience.  Jesus is the propitiation for their sins as well as for te sins of those who are reconciled to God through him from the time of his ministry on earth until he comes for the church. At that time all who have obeyed God both from the OT and the NT will be raptured out of this world.  Those who have died in faith from the OT, and those who have died in the faith in NT are a part of the body of Christ, and will be raised from the death by the Holy Spirit when Jesus comes for the church. You asked seeking, about the second coming from the OT. To whom do you say the following scriptures refer? Quote Daniel  7:13I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. 14And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. Love in Christ, Marty Are you saying that Daniel simply skips over the first coming of Jesus and goes right to the second? Why no mention of the first? You see how you can grab anything from the OT and simply apply it. Also, we only know that a prophecy is of God when it proves to be true that prophecy that you pointed out to would be over 2300 years old but perhaps the vision had another purpose other than what you see as so obvious. When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him. Deuteronomy 18:21-22 Do you think prophecies are simply open ended with no time limit. Read the Old Testament and see carefully how God through a prophet says what will happen and it comes to past in the very life of the prophet or at least that generation and hence a person can have faith from witnessing the Truth. Can you imagine Moses going to Egypt and saying I will lead you out of Egypt but just have faith and years go by and everyone keeps saying don't worry we will get out of Egypt Moses promised us, can you imagine that? The Word of God is Powerful so you read and you see the connection between what God says and what happens after it is said No BD, Daniel did not skip the first coming but also prophesied regarding the coming of the Messiah here: Quote Daniel 9:20And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God; 21Yea, whiles I was s peaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. 22And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding. 23At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision. 24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. 25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. 26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And so, because the rapture has not come to pass as yet, you are saying that Daniel is a false prophet? Quote 2 Peter 3 God’s Promise Is Not Slack 1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us,[a] the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. 8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. I hope that you have made the right decision by the time of his coming because there is no doubt that he will come. Love in Christ, Marty I didn't say Christ wasn't coming, even the Quran agrees that he is returning. Do you read into my posts meanings that are not there? What I said was that Daniel does not refer to any second coming, am I right or not? If I am not then tell me where Daniel explains that Jesus will come be crucified, resurrected and then return in the distant future Well, let's see.  If Daniel prophesies regarding Jesus ministry on earth, and then shows him coming in the clouds, isn't that a second coming or not? Yes, the Quran agrees that Jesus is coming back, but it adds its own little version to why he is coming back to distort the truth. Daniel may not specifically mention the crucifixion, but there are many scriptures in the OT which speak of the sacrifice that Jesus would make. Does the following scripture agree with what the Quran states? Quote Isaiah 53 (King James Version) Isaiah 53 1Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. 5But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. 6All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. 7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. 8He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. 9And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. 10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. 11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. 12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. Without the blood of the covenant, there is no remission of sins.  We already discussed this. Love in Christ, Marty How can Isaiah 53 be about Jesus? Jesus was very popular in his day and was not rejected by any but those who feared his popularity. He was esteemed highly even when he was young often teaching in the synagogues He did open his mouth and was not silent He did not make his grave with the wicked and to say that two thieves were killed beside him is not “making his grave with the wicked” Now, who is his seed? and who did he intercede for at that time? Hi BD: If these verses of scripture are not about Jesus then to whom do you say that they apply? Quote Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Matthew 21:41-43 Matthew 21 # Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again Quote John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: He made his grave with the wicked in that he died for the sins of all of humanity.  The scripture states that all of us like sheep have gone astray, and God has laid the iniquity of all of us upon him.  And so, the wicked are all of us who have practiced sin. His seed are all who have obeyed God in the OT and all who have come to God through him in the NT. Quote Galatians 3:6Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham 6Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. He made intercession for those who were taking part in crucifying him. Quote Luke 23:33And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. 34Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Love in Christ, Marty If what you say is true then Jesus has paid the price for ALL whether accept him or not. God rains on the just and the unjust. Do you believe this? Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam? But most importantly if you believe that Jesus has paid the price of your sins for the purpose of reconciling with God then why are you not reconciled and why do you syill need a mediator? Hi BD: The price has been paid for the sins of all of humanity, but God calls a person into a relationship with him through the gospel.  It is a choice, and God will not force anyone to obey him.  Therefore, if a person does not want to come to God through His provision, they will have to go through a second death which is eternal separation from God.  Jesus has paid the price for the first death or spiritual separation from God.  All of humanity was separated from God through their transgressions of God's eternal law. Quote Ephesians 2 1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) 6And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Quote John 3:16-18 (King James Version) 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. Quote John 12:47-49 (King James Version) 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. . Quote Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death Yes, God makes the rain to fall on the just and unjust because he is merciful and will do everything in His power to save and individual, but door to the ark will be shut on that day when there will not be any more opportunity and judgment day will follow. What do you mean, Was it necessary to believe in the sins of Adam?  It was by him that sin entered into the world. I need a mediator because I fall short of perfect obedience. Love in Christ, Marty You make Adam more powerful than Jesus or God because you say that Adam brought sin in the world and condemned all men to hell without their believing in him or accepting him in any way but for Jesus you say a person must do to achieve salvation what was not needed to receive condemnation you leave God powerless to save what Adam caused condemnation to without any effort on any one elses behalf. I say your view is wrong. Adam is not greater than Jesus or God. You keep talking about choice but no one had a choice in what Adam did and yet you believe that BLAME was placed upon ALL men and infants without acting or believing anything. I say your view is wrong. God NEVER in the entire BIBLE says I can only save someone if they believe in someone else. In-fact God says TURN to HIM and be healed.

Hi BD:

You appear to be grasping for straws to hold on to your false doctrine by accusing me falsely of saying that Adam was greater than Jesus and God. I never said anything like that.

This is what the scripture state:

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Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned

Adam is not responsible for my sin. I am responsible for what I have done. I don't believe in the doctrine of original sin. Infants are born in innocence just as Adam was in innocence before he sinned.

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Romans 5:13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

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1 Corinthians 15 1Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; 2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. 3For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; 4And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures: 5And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve: 6After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep. 7After that, he was seen of James; then of all the apostles. 8And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. 9For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. 12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: 14And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. 15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. 16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

And yes, I understand about Solomon being a son of God, but you do not seem to understand:

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Matthew 12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

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13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? 14And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. 15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

And so, God my Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD and so that settles it, unless you want to argue with God about what He has said.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[bodhitharta]

Marty,

Is God a Male?

[bodhitharta]

Quote (942767 @ May 14 2010,09:55)

And so, God my Father has revealed to humanity through the Apostle Peter that Jesus is THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD and so that settles it, unless you want to argue with God about what He has said. Love in Christ, Marty

Matthew 22:29-31 (King James Version)

29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

30For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

What do you think that means? Do you think that means the angels have children too?

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