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God sent Jesus in the world that whosoever believed in him would not perish so did he send Jesus to perish?
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:37) God sent Jesus in the world that whosoever believed in him would not perish so did he send Jesus to perish?
God has forseen every thing from the beginning to the end and so He knew how Jesus would die, but Jesus did not perish, he obeyed God without sin in spite of what man could do to him, and thus overcame sin and the grave. He did not perish but is alive forever more and is now has become by experience the author of eternal life to all that obey him.Quote Hebrews 5:5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 07 2010,11:53) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:37) God sent Jesus in the world that whosoever believed in him would not perish so did he send Jesus to perish?
God has forseen every thing from the beginning to the end and so He knew how Jesus would die, but Jesus did not perish, he obeyed God without sin in spite of what man could do to him, and thus overcame sin and the grave. He did not perish but is alive forever more and is now has become by experience the author of eternal life to all that obey him.Quote Hebrews 5:5So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. 6As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
7Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Love in Christ,
Marty
So why is it that when I say Christ did not perish because he never was killed or crucified you say he had to.Doesn't sacrifice mean to do without?
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:58) what was Sacrificed?
Hi BD:To sacrifice relative to God would mean to offer up something of value to Him.
Quote Hebrews 8 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
He offered up himself as a man who obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. He sacrificed his life.
Quote Hebrews 9:11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:58) what was Sacrificed?
Hi BD:To sacrifice relative to God would mean to offer up something of value to Him.
Quote Hebrews 8 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
He offered up himself as a man who obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. He sacrificed his life.
Quote Hebrews 9:11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Love in Christ,
Marty
How can you say he sacrificed his life when 1. his life was taken by force 2. his body did not perish and he was raised up in it with nothing but 3 days time lostWhere is the loss of anything permanent? He was rewarded and exalted.
Islam agrees that he was rewarded and exalted and even heard when asked to be SAVED from the murder plot but you cannot believe that because you place your salvation on his death not on his life.
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,14:38) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:58) what was Sacrificed?
Hi BD:To sacrifice relative to God would mean to offer up something of value to Him.
Quote Hebrews 8 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
He offered up himself as a man who obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. He sacrificed his life.
Quote Hebrews 9:11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Love in Christ,
Marty
How can you say he sacrificed his life when 1. his life was taken by force 2. his body did not perish and he was raised up in it with nothing but 3 days time lostWhere is the loss of anything permanent? He was rewarded and exalted.
Islam agrees that he was rewarded and exalted and even heard when asked to be SAVED from the murder plot but you cannot believe that because you place your salvation on his death not on his life.
Hi BD:He offered himself up to God as a vessel for God to accomplish His purpose through him. He did this willingly.
Quote 7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. 8When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Who said there has to be a permanent loss of something. He overcame sin and death through perfect obedience to God,
Quote Hebrews 2 1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
The Quran distorts the truth, and that is why you are confused.
My salvation is based on what God has done for me through His provision, and not about any good thing that I have done or ever could do.
Love in christ,
Martybodhitharta,
What do you base your belief (or rather dis-belief) on? It seems that you do not believe hardly any of the new testament.Wm
Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,15:56) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,14:38) Quote (942767 @ May 07 2010,12:47) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 07 2010,11:58) what was Sacrificed?
Hi BD:To sacrifice relative to God would mean to offer up something of value to Him.
Quote Hebrews 8 1Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man (Jesus) have somewhat also to offer.
4For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
He offered up himself as a man who obeyed God without sin even unto death on the cross. He sacrificed his life.
Quote Hebrews 9:11But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; 12Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Love in Christ,
Marty
How can you say he sacrificed his life when 1. his life was taken by force 2. his body did not perish and he was raised up in it with nothing but 3 days time lostWhere is the loss of anything permanent? He was rewarded and exalted.
Islam agrees that he was rewarded and exalted and even heard when asked to be SAVED from the murder plot but you cannot believe that because you place your salvation on his death not on his life.
Hi BD:He offered himself up to God as a vessel for God to accomplish His purpose through him. He did this willingly.
Quote 7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. 8When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he was the more afraid;
9And went again into the judgment hall, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer.
10Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.
Who said there has to be a permanent loss of something. He overcame sin and death through perfect obedience to God,
Quote Hebrews 2 1Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.
2For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
3How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
4God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
5For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
6But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
7Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
8Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
10For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
11For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
12Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
18For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
The Quran distorts the truth, and that is why you are confused.
My salvation is based on what God has done for me through His provision, and not about any good thing that I have done or ever could do.
Love in christ,
MartyQuote My salvation i
s based on what God has done for me through His provision, and not about any good thing that I have done or ever could do.Then, why does Jesus say you must also overcome sin and the ways of the world. If God made Jesus replace your own efforts then why must you overcome?
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 07 2010,15:59) bodhitharta,
What do you base your belief (or rather dis-belief) on? It seems that you do not believe hardly any of the new testament.Wm
My base is based upon the truth in the Torah, The Prophets, The Gospel and The Quran.All of them say that we are to turn to God and worship God in spirit and truth. All say that we are saved by the mercy of God and not the sacrifice of anything.
As Jesus said:
But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 9:12-14He says the truth about the plot against him and how it is not a sacrifice or any kind
But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:6-8Now what is the most acceptable form of sacrifice to God?
The voice of joy, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the voice of them that shall say, Praise the LORD of hosts: for the LORD is good; for his mercy endureth for ever: and of them that shall bring the sacrifice of praise into the house of the LORD. For I will cause to return the captivity of the land, as at the first, saith the LORD.
Jeremiah 33:10-12And Jesus Quoted from this Prophet:
For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
Hosea 6:5-7did God ever want Sacrifices?
Jeremiah 7:21-23 (King James Version)
21Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Put your burnt offerings unto your sacrifices, and eat flesh.
22For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices:
23But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.
Why is this so hard for you to believe. God wants OBEDIENCE i.e. SUBMISSION this was God's initial command and Adams initial RELIGION this is ISLAM
bodhitharta,
How do you justify quoting from a book you believe so little of? You say God wants mercy not sacrifice, I agree. I also agree that islam is into submission and those who refuse to submit to islam are put to death, per the quran, not a lot of mercy there.The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
God is opposed to the proud
The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him.
I couldn't agree more that obedience is better then sacrifice, where we differ is, obedience to what. I believe it is to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Kind of hard to do that if your killing them. Yes God is merciful but so should we be.
Why do I believe that Jesus came to die:
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
What do you think this verse means Hebrews 10:7-9 Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll I have come to do your will, O God.' “[a] 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 07 2010,17:51) bodhitharta,
How do you justify quoting from a book you believe so little of? You say God wants mercy not sacrifice, I agree. I also agree that islam is into submission and those who refuse to submit to islam are put to death, per the quran, not a lot of mercy there.The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
God is opposed to the proud
The LORD detests the sacrifice of the wicked, but the prayer of the upright pleases him.
I couldn't agree more that obedience is better then sacrifice, where we differ is, obedience to what. I believe it is to love the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. Kind of hard to do that if your killing them. Yes God is merciful but so should we be.
Why do I believe that Jesus came to die:
and live a life of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
And do not forget to do good and to share with others, for with such sacrifices God is pleased.
Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself.
This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins.
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God.
we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
What do you think this verse means Hebrews 10:7-9 Then I said, 'Here I am—it is written about me in the scroll I have come to do your will, O God.' “[a] 8First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made). 9Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
My opinion – Wm
Did God set aside mercy to accept the sacrifice of Jesus?Think about that for a moment.
God wants us to be merciful but you insist he teaches us that through Sacrifice?
It was for mercy that the Father gave His Son, who in turn offered Himself up (Jesus could have stopped it at anytime). The Father did not force Jesus to sacrifice, it was a sacrifice that had to be made, it satisfied His righteousness and the demand for justice, while showing the love that is God. God always acts for the greater good.
As far as what He taught us, He taught us the price of our sins.
My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,02:42) It was for mercy that the Father gave His Son, who in turn offered Himself up (Jesus could have stopped it at anytime). The Father did not force Jesus to sacrifice, it was a sacrifice that had to be made, it satisfied His righteousness and the demand for justice, while showing the love that is God. God always acts for the greater good. As far as what He taught us, He taught us the price of our sins.
My opinion – Wm
God's demand for justice is that everyone is responsible for their own sins:The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:19-21Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:3-5For every man shall bear his own burden.
Galatians 6:4-6God does not punish everyone for one man nor does he save everyone for one man, the reson Jesus can lead someone to salvation is because:
Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
Acts 3:25-26Do you now understand salvation comes from the Mercy of God and Jesus in teaching you about God and His Mercy leads you to salvation when adhering to his instruction to turn away from sin and SUBMIT to GOD in PEACE. This is what it means to be a Muslim in Islam.
Therefore when someone is reconciled to God they should pray to God directly and have a personal relationship with God doing the will of God. His Christ has already done his work now get on with yours.
John 16:25-27 (King James Version)
25These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Receive the blessing brother
You still haven't answer me on why you quote select scriptures (twisted to suit your purposes) while rejecting the rest of the book that prove your misinterpreting your select verses. If Jesus showed us plainly of the Father then why do you not believe what He says.
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,05:42) You still haven't answer me on why you quote select scriptures (twisted to suit your purposes) while rejecting the rest of the book that prove your misinterpreting your select verses. If Jesus showed us plainly of the Father then why do you not believe what He says. Wm
I have not said I rejected any of the Bible, the fact is I see the Quran just as you see the NT. You believe that the NT reveals things about the OT as Jesus is never mentioned by name in the OT and there was no “Dying” messiah in Jewish culture. The Messiah was coming to defeat evil and save Israel, they expected a warrior, someone like Moses.This is why they woldn't accept Jesus because they didn't understand that he was the Christ and it is the same way with Islam, Christians are to Muslims the same way Jews were to Christians.
To this very day Jews say that Jesus was not the Christ and most will say he was a False Prophet, Islam declares that the Jews are incorrect and that Jesus was their promised Messiah but they perceived it not.
Christianity actually finds a witness in Islam and the Jews know this. The Quran is sent down from Almighty God and you deny the favors of your LORD, why?
bodhitharta,
For tactical reasons you do not want to say that you reject any of the bible, but when you deny the crucifixion you are denying the whole purpose and common thread of the NT. I do not deny the favors of my Lord, I deny the author of the quran as being The God who so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son…My opinion – Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,07:26) bodhitharta,
For tactical reasons you do not want to say that you reject any of the bible, but when you deny the crucifixion you are denying the whole purpose and common thread of the NT. I do not deny the favors of my Lord, I deny the author of the quran as being The God who so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son…My opinion – Wm
You seem to have no problem not rejecting the Torah althou it does not support the Christian idea of a Messiah who is defeated. The Jews see the Messiah as one who conquers and brings peace and yet you have to reason that Jesus will do this upon his second coming, yet you will find no such thing about a second coming in the entire OT so why was that part left out? So now you speak about a crucifixion and resurrection and it's not that I don't accept it it's simply that it was explained that they did in-fact think Christ had been crucified and killed but that indeed he was not but God raised him alive up to himself.Now I ask you what OLD Testament verse mentions a second coming?
Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,03:55) Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,07:26) bodhitharta,
For tactical reasons you do not want to say that you reject any of the bible, but when you deny the crucifixion you are denying the whole purpose and common thread of the NT. I do not deny the favors of my Lord, I deny the author of the quran as being The God who so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son…My opinion – Wm
You seem to have no problem not rejecting the Torah althou it does not support the Christian idea of a Messiah who is defeated. The Jews see the Messiah as one who conquers and brings peace and yet you have to reason that Jesus will do this upon his second coming, yet you will find no such thing about a second coming in the entire OT so why was that part left out? So now you speak about a crucifixion and resurrection and it's not that I don't accept it it's simply that it was explained that they did in-fact think Christ had been crucified and killed but that indeed he was not but God raised him alive up to himself.Now I ask you what OLD Testament verse mentions a second coming?
bodhitharta,
“Christian idea of a Messiah who is defeated”!In what way was He defeated???
25Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—
Wm
Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,09:33) Quote (bodhitharta @ May 08 2010,03:55) Quote (seekingtruth @ May 08 2010,07:26) bodhitharta,
For tactical reasons you do not want to say that you reject any of the bible, but when you deny the crucifixion you are denying the whole purpose and common thread of the NT. I do not deny the favors of my Lord, I deny the author of the quran as being The God who so loved the world that He sent His only begotten Son…My opinion – Wm
You seem to have no problem not rejecting the Torah althou it does not support the Christian idea of a Messiah who is defeated. The Jews see the Messiah as one who conquers and brings peace and yet you have to reason that Jesus will do this upon his second coming, yet you will find no such thing about a second coming in the entire OT so why was that part left out? So now you speak about a crucifixion and resurrection and it's not that I don't accept it it's simply that it was explained that they did in-fact think Christ had been crucified and killed but that indeed he was not but God raised him alive up to himself.Now I ask you what OLD Testament verse mentions a second coming?
bodhitharta,
“Christian idea of a Messiah who is defeated”!In what way was He defeated???
25Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—
Wm
I don't say that he was defeated, I say that God saved Him from being killed or Crucified.What I am saying is that the Jewish people were awaiting a saviour that would conquer their oppressors not in a second coming but upon his arrival and that did not happen.
The Messianic age dd not occur during the life of Christ, nations still rise against nation and they have not turned their weapons into plow shares, that is the Jewish position.
My point is that knowledge of Jesus returning a second time is strictly found in the NT and then revealed again in The Glorious Quran as a witness. So if God can reveal in the NT what was not mentioned in the OT can HE not also reveal in The Glorious Quran what was not in the NT?
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