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Hi Kathi:
You say:
Quote Now look at that Marty…you ask why we would need an alternate way of saying “only begotten Son of God.” Yet you tell me that John 1:18 tells us that He is the Only begotten Son…right?
You do believe that Jesus is also called the Son of God…right?
You also believe that Jesus is called the Christ, the Son of the living God…right?Kathi: each of these statements is not an alternate way of saying the “only begotten Son”. Each of these statements identifies him as the “Son” of God.
Yes, he was a man because he was born of a woman, but not the body type only, but he was born a living person, and the Son of God as an infant because he was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Here he was the Son of God under the Law of Moses. Adam was also the Son of God in innocence before his fall. Jesus did not sin even under the Law of Moses, and so, God speaking from heaven stated: “this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”.
But yes, it is through his life that we have seen God's character manifest through his life.
God does call him God, but says to him:
Quote Hbr 1:8 But unto the Son [he saith], Thy throne, O God, [is] for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness [is] the sceptre of thy kingdom. Hbr 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, [even] thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
God is a Spirit of love, and Jesus, the Son of the living God, is the express image of His person, and we also are being transformed into this same image through the Word of God.
Love in Christ,
MartyMarty,
you said:
Quote Kathi: each of these statements is not an alternate way of saying the “only begotten Son”. Each of these statements identifies him as the “Son” of God. Well then, hmmm…each of those statements is an alternate way of identifying Him as the Son of God. Do you agree to that?
Quote
Yes, he was a man because he was born of a woman, but not the body type only, but he was born a living person, and the Son of God as an infant because he was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Here he was the Son of God under the Law of Moses. Adam was also the Son of God in innocence before his fall. Jesus did not sin even under the Law of Moses, and so, God speaking from heaven stated: “this is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased”.Here you begin by saying:
“he was a man because he was born of a woman…”Could you likewise say:
He was a god because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit.Could you say that Marty, why or why not?
Kathi
Hi Kathi:
Quote Marty, you said:
Quote
Kathi: each of these statements is not an alternate way of saying the “only begotten Son”. Each of these statements identifies him as the “Son” of God.Well then, hmmm…each of those statements is an alternate way of identifying Him as the Son of God. Do you agree to that?
Yes, I agree with that. Each of the statements say that “he is the Son of God”, and that is what the scriptures state.
And you ask:
Quote Could you likewise say:
He was a god because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit.Could you say that Marty, why or why not?
Kathi, I know what you are saying, but no, because the scripture states that:
Quote Luk 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. Quote Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth. Quote Hbr 1:1 ¶ God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hbr 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Hbr 1:3 Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his person,and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Quote Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name: Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Quote Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father? Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
Quote Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Kathi:
In essence this is the summation of what I have learned through this discussion with you, God made man in His own image, the first man Adam was made “a living person or soul”. God is a “living person”. He was the created Adam who was called the Son of God. Jesus was the “last Adam” who was begotten by God in the womb of the virgin Mary. What was born or begotten by God was a living soul or person not another God.
He(God) is a living person, but HE alone is God because of His supremecy over all of His creation, and because of the life that he lives. Jesus was born into this world as an infant just as another infant except that he was not born of the sperm of man. He was a living soul, and through his obedience to the Word of God, we have seen God's character manifest through his life. He is the “express image of God's person.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Lightenup @ Feb. 17 2012,06:21) Marty,
Do you deny that Jesus is YOUR Lord and YOUR God?Kathi
Hi Kathi:I do not deny that Jesus is my Lord or master, but I do deny that he is my God. I am submitted to God through him. His purpose in giving his life as a sacrifice was to reconcile us unto this Father.
He said this when he was going to ascend to his exalted position at the right hand of the Father as head of the church, Kathi:
Quote Jhn 2:12And seeth two angels in white sitting, the one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. Jhn 20:13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him.
Jhn 20:14And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
Jhn 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Jhn 20:16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
Jhn 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Marty,
Thanks for your answer.If Jesus is just our Lord and not our God then why did Jesus not correct Thomas?
Also please tell me who is the husband to the church.
Thanks again,
KathiHi LU,
Thomas understaood what Jesus taught him a couple of chapters before.When he saw Jesus he also saw God in him.
Do not confuse the vessel with the contents
Nick,
God is in all believers so according to you all believers are the Lord and the God of each other? Try again.Hi LU,
You can be an intellectual believer but not born again.
Those who do not have the Spirit of Christ are none of his.[Rom8]
The Spirit of God manifests the Father and the Son to those in the body of ChristNick,
According to you Thomas called Jesus HIS Lord and HIS God because God dwelled in Him and Thomas just truly accepted it at that moment. Don't you also teach that the Father dwells within all true believers? If so, all believers would be Thomas' (and your) Lord and God. Do you call all believers your Lord and your God?Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2012,05:32) Hi Marty,
Thanks for your answer.If Jesus is just our Lord and not our God then why did Jesus not correct Thomas?
Also please tell me who is the husband to the church.
Thanks again,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:Perhaps Jesus did not correct Thomas because he understood in what sense Thomas called him God. And I do not know in what sense that he called him God. It could have been an expression of amazement because of the resurrection or it could have been a statement based on what Jesus stated in John 14, and that is Jesus said: “he who has seen me has seen the Father”.
But what ever the case, the fact that Thomas stated, “my Lord and my God” does not over-ride what Jesus stated when he was to ascend to the right hand of the Father, and that is that he was going to his Father and our Father and to his God and our God. Did Jesus not say that he was our brother?
Is God our brother, or is he our Father?Here is someone whom Jesus did correct:
Quote Mat 19:16 ¶ And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Love in Christ,
MartyHi Kathi:
You asked:
Who is the husband?
Jesus is the husband of the church, watching over God's Word to perform it.
Love in Christ,
MartyQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 18 2012,17:31) Hi LU,
Not at all ,
“My lord AND my GOd”
Two
Nick,
There are two names for one person. Thomas was only talking to one person. He called Jesus 'his Lord and his God.'Why do you think that is was all right for Thomas to call Jesus his Lord and his God when, as you say, he finally believed that God was in Him? You say that you don't call true believers your Lord and your God and God dwells in them. Why is it fine for Thomas and not for you?
Your argument is inconsistent, sorry.
Thomas did not call Jesus 'his Lord and his God' because of the Holy Spirit within Him but because He believed that Jesus was his Lord and his God.
Kathi
Marty,
Read how differently an older Greek manuscript is translated in Mat 19:
16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Basically Jesus is the only one that is good and we are to follow Him. If you looked at the Greek grammar, the young man is not calling Jesus 'good teacher' or 'good master' but the 'good' goes with the 'what good thing.'
I will address more later but for now just see how differently this story is with the 'good' in the right place and the word 'God' not even in the story.
Have a good night,
KathiQuote (Nick Hassan @ Feb. 19 2012,00:24) Hi LU,
So you say.
You should listen with Thomas in Jn14
Nick,
John 14 is full of claims that are God sized that Jesus makes of Himself and demonstrates that He is to be believed in with the Father. Here are just a few:John 14:1″Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me.
“I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also;
15“If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
“If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.
Note that Thomas is already calling Jesus 'Lord' in chapter 14. When he sees His scars after His resurrection He then also believes Him to be His God.
Quote (Lightenup @ Feb. 19 2012,16:53) Marty, Read how differently an older Greek manuscript is translated in Mat 19:
16And someone came to Him and said, “Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may obtain eternal life?” 17And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18Then he said to Him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER; YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY; YOU SHALL NOT STEAL; YOU SHALL NOT BEAR FALSE WITNESS; 19HONOR YOUR FATHER AND MOTHER; and YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Basically Jesus is the only one that is good and we are to follow Him. If you looked at the Greek grammar, the young man is not calling Jesus 'good teacher' or 'good master' but the 'good' goes with the 'what good thing.'
I will address more later but for now just see how differently this story is with the 'good' in the right place and the word 'God' not even in the story.
Have a good night,
Kathi
Hi Kathi:This from Young's Literal Translation:
Quote Mat 19:16 And lo, one having come near, said to him, `Good teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may have life age-during?' Mat 19:17 And he said to him, `Why me dost thou call good? no one [is] good except One — God; but if thou dost will to enter into the life, keep the commands.'
I do believe that Jesus wanted to make the point that he came to us because of God's goodness. You know, Kathi, “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son…”
Love in Christ,
Marty
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