Deserving of hell?

[david]

Quote

tormented

Did you know that back then, Jailers were called “tormenters.” The very imprisonment itself was considered torment.

You forgot to highlight this part:

Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.

I suppose “death” and “hell” will also be tormented. Well, they will be “jailed” so to speak in “the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.”
They will never be let out, or freed. They will no longer exist at all. It is clear and obvious that you cannot do anything to “hell” or “death” by literally casting them into fire.
It is equally obvious therefore, that this lake of fire means something, as it specifically, very clearly says: This is the second death, the lake of fire.

Quote

it does not necessarily mean the immediate cessation of life. Yahweh told A&E they would die yet they did not — what was their “death”?

While one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years, and while they died within that time; 931 for adam I think, I believe it could have meant that they died spiritually that day, being completely cut off from Jehovah.

Similarly, anything thrown into the symbolic lake of fire is “cut off” from existence. But since this is the “second” death, there is no hope of coming back.

Quote

Typical Christian rhetoric, which basically means you are willing to condemn 2/3 of humanity to the lake of fire.

I am not willing to condemn anyone. But what does the Bible say?

Quote

A parent requires more than a child to do what the child thinks is good. A parent often has specific things the child has to do. If the child refuses and says I'm doing what I think is good, how will that go?

What you call “rhetoric” I call reality. If your parents never gave you any specific instruction or responsibilities, and simply said “be good” whatever that means to you, I think this helps us to understand some things.

[david]

2 Thess. 1:9, RS: “They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction* and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might.” (*“Eternal ruin,” NAB, NE; “lost eternally,” JB; “condemn them to eternal punishment,” Kx; “eternal punishment in destruction,” Dy.)

In ancient Babylonian and Assyrian beliefs the “nether world . . . is pictured as a place full of horrors, and is presided over by gods and demons of great strength and fierceness.” (The Religion of Babylonia and Assyria, Boston, 1898, Morris Jastrow, Jr., p. 581)

Early evidence of the fiery aspect of Christendom’s hell is found in the religion of ancient Egypt. (The Book of the Dead, New Hyde Park, N.Y., 1960, with introduction by E. A. Wallis Budge, pp. 144, 149, 151, 153, 161)

Buddhism, which dates back to the 6th century B.C.E., in time came to feature both hot and cold hells. (The Encyclopedia Americana, 1977, Vol. 14, p. 68)

Depictions of hell portrayed in Catholic churches in Italy have been traced to Etruscan roots.—La civiltà etrusca (Milan, 1979), Werner Keller, p. 389.

But the real roots of this God-dishonoring doctrine go much deeper. The fiendish concepts associated with a hell of torment slander God and originate with the chief slanderer of God (the Devil, which name means “Slanderer”), the one whom Jesus Christ called “the father of the lie.”—John 8:44.

Obviously, kejonn, you have this great desire to paint the God of the Bible as a cruel vindicitive God. But in this case, the lies are much more transparent I believe.

[Cato]

David,
You are right that there are many groups and beliefs that contain after death realms of darkness or torment and that they may have influenced today's Christianity is probable.  Many have been saying all along that much of current Christianity was influenced by older ideas.  Which then would tend to indicate the Bible is either not a direct divine revelation or if it was then others before them had similar revelations.  This then leads to one, the Bible is not total truth or two, it is not the only version of truth.

At any rate in the view of most fundamentalists only those born again of spirit and water will be saved so the rest, in which falls the great majority of mankind past and present, is destined for oblivion at best, or eternal punishment at worse.  One would imagine that a divine plan for loved children would have a higher success rate for such ultimate and unchanging consequence.

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ April 23 2008,02:02)

Quote tormented Did you know that back then, Jailers were called “tormenters.”  The very imprisonment itself was considered torment.

Luk 16:22  “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried.
Luk 16:23  “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24  “And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'

Yes, a parable, but to what purpose? In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment.

So do you agree with Jesus or not?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (seek and you will find @ April 23 2008,05:38)

What Is True! Hello, Jesus never sinned, He died for our sins, so we can live. That is why it says that Christ has set us free from death and sin. We now live under His Blood. He died for all of our sins, past, present, and future. Does that give us a license to sin, certainly not. It is our responsibility to grow in faith and knowledge of God. Peace and Love Mrs.

Thanks for your effort to help me out.  However, I am not sure that you understood the question that I was asking.  You may have seen my response to 942767 without reading my original question.

Here it is again:

Quote

Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven).  Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated.  Jesus did not suffer this punishment.  According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence.  In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross. How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)? By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins.  But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians!  In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins? It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer.  Perhaps someone here can come up with one.

[seek and you will find]

To all! Do you really believe that God is going to let everybody burn forever in the lake of fire? I do not think so. It says the second death. What is death. God is going to destroy all in the lake of fire. Burn up so only the ashes are left. Read Mica.
Peace and Love Mrs.

[david]

Quote

Many have been saying all along that much of current Christianity was influenced by older ideas.

Yes, the most common false religious beliefs come from babylon–immortal soul, hell, trinity, etc. The beliefs that most religions share had this common source.
That is why the Bible calls false religion babylon the great.
And the fact that apostate Christianity incorporated these beliefs into their teachings only confirms the apostles and Jesus words.

Quote

Which then would tend to indicate the Bible is either not a direct divine revelation or if it was then others before them had similar revelations.

No Cato, it indicates that those who said such things would happen were precisely right.

Quote

This then leads to one, the Bible is not total truth or two, it is not the only version of truth.

I believe you have mixed up what people think the Bible says with what it actually does say. Many think “God the son” or “immortal soul” are somewhere in the Bible. They aren't. I've checked.

Quote

Luk 16:22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. Luk 16:23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 “And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' Yes, a parable, but to what purpose? In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment.

Kejonn, Nick and I discussed this for 20 pages and then stopped and then months later discussed it again. Somewhere in one of the 2 or 3 “hell” or “hades/sheol (hell)” threads, you'd find it. But many things in that parable show that it is clearly symbolic and not literal. They represent groups of people and a change in circumstances.

Quote

In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment.

You know, Kejonn, “sheol” or “hades” is the place Jesus is said to have gone for 3 days when he died. Was he in torment? No, he was in the pit, the grave.

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ April 23 2008,19:56)

Quote Luk 16:22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. Luk 16:23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 “And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' Yes, a parable, but to what purpose? In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment. Kejonn, Nick and I discussed this for 20 pages and then stopped and then months later discussed it again. Somewhere in one of the 2 or 3 “hell” or “hades/sheol (hell)” threads, you'd find it. But many things in that parable show that it is clearly symbolic and not literal. They represent groups of people and a change in circumstances.

This is how it goes: when a Christian can't explain it or it does not fit his/her theology, it is symbolic. How utterly convenient for you. How do you go about choosing which parts of the bible are to be taken literally and others symbolically? Oh yes, the “spirit”. The same “spirit” that leads to thousands of different conclusions.

Almost 2000 years later and people are still arguing over the same old nonsense.

Quote

Quote In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment. You know, Kejonn, “sheol” or “hades” is the place Jesus is said to have gone for 3 days when he died. Was he in torment? No, he was in the pit, the grave.

Yet is seems that the rich man was indeed in agony. Is he still there in agony, awaiting the “second death”?

[david]

Quote

when a Christian can't explain it or it does not fit his/her theology, it is symbolic. How utterly convenient for you.

Have you even read this parable. Aren't you the one that first called it a “parable”? Explain to me how those things are literal.

Actually, first go find the other hell thread and do some research on this parable. I really don't think you have any idea what you're talking about here.

Quote

The same “spirit” that leads to thousands of different conclusions.

It's kind of silly for you to believe that God's spirit is behind the “thousand of different conclusions.”

You question the Bible at every step, but never the people who claim to represent it? If you spent a little less time questioning and more time studying, you'd know about another one of Jesus parables, about the wheat and the weeds.

Quote

Yet is seems that the rich man was indeed in agony. Is he still there in agony, awaiting the “second death”?

If taken literally, it would mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there.
Does that sound reasonable to you?
If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith?
You accuse me of saying something is symbolic because it in your opinion doesn't fit. Well I accuse you of taking something that is clearly symbolic and making it literal so that it conflicts with the rest of the Bible and with logic and common sense.

[Stu]

Quote (david @ April 25 2008,18:34)

Quote The same “spirit” that leads to thousands of different conclusions. It's kind of silly for you to believe that God's spirit is behind the “thousand of different conclusions.”

Tell me of even one believer in any of those 34,000 christian sects who would admit that the 'spirit of god' by rights really indicates that one of the other sects reflects it better.

Silly is using the phrase 'spirit of god' without being able to say what it is, then calling someone else silly because he have not read that person's mind on his concept of the spirit of god.

I could jump in here and define the spirit of god as his love for the activities of the Amish. Every other kind of christian will burn, I'm sure of it.

Stuart

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ April 23 2008,19:56)

Quote Many have been saying all along that much of current Christianity was influenced by older ideas. Yes, the most common false religious beliefs come from babylon–immortal soul, hell, trinity, etc. The beliefs that most religions share had this common source. That is why the Bible calls false religion babylon the great. And the fact that apostate Christianity incorporated these beliefs into their teachings only confirms the apostles and Jesus words. Quote Which then would tend to indicate the Bible is either not a direct divine revelation or if it was then others before them had similar revelations. No Cato, it indicates that those who said such things would happen were precisely right. Quote This then leads to one, the Bible is not total truth or two, it is not the only version of truth. I believe you have mixed up what people think the Bible says with what it actually does say. Many think “God the son” or “immortal soul” are somewhere in the Bible. They aren't. I've checked. Quote Luk 16:22 “Now the poor man died and was carried away by the angels to Abraham's bosom; and the rich man also died and was buried. Luk 16:23 “In Hades he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his bosom. Luk 16:24 “And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.' Yes, a parable, but to what purpose? In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment. Kejonn, Nick and I discussed this for 20 pages and then stopped and then months later discussed it again. Somewhere in one of the 2 or 3 “hell” or “hades/sheol (hell)” threads, you'd find it. But many things in that parable show that it is clearly symbolic and not literal. They represent groups of people and a change in circumstances. Quote In this, Jesus says there is a hell where people go when they die, and they are consciously aware of their state of punishment. You know, Kejonn, “sheol” or “hades” is the place Jesus is said to have gone for 3 days when he died. Was he in torment? No, he was in the pit, the grave.

So Jesus believed in a symbolic hell? How appropriate for your line of reasoning.

I love it how people will support symbolism when it suits them or literalism when that suits them.

[david]

Quote

So Jesus believed in a symbolic hell? How appropriate for your line of reasoning.

Hello! Is this thing on?

Acts 2:25-27, KJ: “David speaketh concerning him [Jesus Christ], . . . Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell,* neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.”
(The fact that God did not “leave” Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Hades, at least for a time, does it not?) (*“Hell,” Dy; “death,” NE; “the place of death,” Kx; “the world of the dead,” TEV; “Hades,” AS, RS, JB, NW.)

Was Jesus burning in hades? Or is hades just “the place of death” or the condition of the dead?

Let's look at the parable.

LUKE 16: THE PARABLE OF THE RICH MAN AND LAZARUS

Teachers of hellfire quickly point to this account as definite proof that there is indeed a hell of torment that awaits the wicked. But, in so doing, they disregard such clear and repeated Biblical statements as: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20; Compare Rom 6:7,23) And: “As for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5) Clearly these statements do not support the idea of torment for lost souls in a fiery hell.
If the story of the rich man and lazarus is to be taken literally, then it would contradict many other parts of the Bible. (Please see the 10 points I made earlier for example.) But the Bible does not contradict itself. So what does this parable given by Jesus mean? (Mat 13:34,35)

Actually, let’s make clear what it doesn’t mean first:
THE STORY ISN’T LITERAL (Mt 13:34,35)
Note what is said about the rich man. Why was he tormented in Hades? What had he done? Jesus did not say that the rich man led a degraded life, did he? All that Jesus said was that the man was rich, dressed well and feasted sumptuously. Does such conduct of itself merit punishment by torment? True, a serious failing is implied in the attitude of the rich man toward the beggar Lazarus. The rich man lacked compassion for him. But did that failing distinguish him sufficiently from Lazarus?
Think about what Jesus said concerning Lazarus. Is there anything in the account to lead us to conclude that, if the situation had been reversed, Lazarus would have been a compassionate man? Do we read that Lazarus built up a record of fine works with God, leading to his coming into the “bosom position of Abraham,” that is, a position of divine favor? Jesus did not say that. He merely described Lazarus as a sickly beggar.
So is it logical to conclude that all sickly beggars will receive divine blessings at death, whereas all rich men will go to a place of conscious torment? Not at all. Begging is of itself no mark of God’s favor. To the contrary, the Bible contains the prayerful expression: “Give me neither poverty nor riches.” (Proverbs 30:8)
If we take Jesus’ words literally, we would have to draw still other conclusions that would make the illustration strange indeed. These include: That those enjoying celestial happiness are in position to see and speak to those suffering torment in Hades despite the “great chasm” between them; that there is water down in Hades into which a person can dip the finger; that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades; that, although the torment of Hades is great, a mere drop of water would bring relief to the sufferer; that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham.
Taken literally, do these things sound reasonable to you? Is this story given by Jesus meant to be taken literally? (Mt 13:34,35)
If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible. If the Bible were thus contradictory, would a lover of truth use it as a basis for his faith?
But the Bible does not contradict itself.

As A New Testament Commentary (1969) well notes, to consider it historical “ignores the element of symbolism that is quite apparent in the story,” such as “Abraham’s bosom, the great Chasm fixed and this flame.”
It is also significant that Jesus said nothing about the rich man as being wicked or the poor man as being good. Considered as a parable, it cannot be used to prove life after death.

WHAT THE PARABLE MEANS–(FIRST, WITHOUT A LOT OF EXPLANATION)
The “rich man” represented the self-important religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and who rejected Jesus. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who hunger for spiritual nourishment. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances or condition, (as death is sometimes figuratively used in the Bible). This change took place when Jesus spiritually fed the formerly despised ones, the neglected Lazarus-like people, so that they die to their former spiritually deprived condition and were brought into the bosom, or favored position of divine favor with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. (In the Bible, Abraham sometimes pictures Jehovah.) Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. At the same time, the formerly seemingly favored ones (the false religious leaders) were rejected by God or “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition. The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. They were tormented by God’s fiery judgement messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised. (Acts 5:33; 7:51-57) The “great chasm” that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment. (Read Ps 36:6) The rich man next requests “father Abraham” to send Lazarus “to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. (See John 8:44) Why five brothers? Why not another number? The five brothers (with the rich man making six, a symbol of the Devil’s organization) represented all the admirers and supporters of the religious rulers, and manifesting the same spirit. The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.” “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” Yes, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: “‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ More than once the Pharisees and others asked Jesus to “display to them a sign from heaven.” ” (Matt. 16:1-4; 12:38-41) Going on, “Father Abraham” said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” (Compare John 5:39,46,47) God will n
ot provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. (See Luke 16:16) For example, Peter’s stirring message on the day of Pentecost was based entirely on quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, from Moses (the Law) and the Prophets and the Psalms. The fact that three thousand immediately responded and were baptized proved that the Hebrew Scriptures in themselves were a sufficient warning and guide to those willing to listen, many of whom were formerly adherents of Judaism.—Acts 2:41.

Now, for more explanation.

WHAT THE PARABLE MEANS:
THE “RICH MAN” AND “LAZARUS” IDENTIFIED
Examine the context. To whom was Jesus talking? At Luke 16:14 we are told: “Now the Pharisees, who were money lovers, were listening to all these things, and they began to sneer at him.”
Since Jesus spoke in the hearing of the Pharisees, was he relating an actual case or was he simply using an illustration? Concerning Jesus’ method of teaching the crowds, we read: “Indeed, without an illustration he would not speak to them.” (Matthew 13:34) Accordingly, the account about the rich man and Lazarus must be an illustration.
This illustration was evidently directed to the Pharisees. As a class they were like the rich man. They loved money, as well as prominence and flattering titles. (Matthew 23:5-7)
The Pharisees looked down on others, especially on tax collectors, harlots and others having the reputation of being sinners. (Luke 18:11, 12) On one occasion when officers, sent to arrest Jesus, came back empty-handed because of having been impressed by his teaching, the Pharisees spoke up: “You have not been misled also, have you? Not one of the rulers or of the Pharisees has put faith in him, has he? But this crowd that does not know the Law are accursed people.”—John 7:47-49.
Hence, in the parable the beggar Lazarus well represents those humble persons whom the Pharisees despised but who repented and became followers of Jesus Christ. Jesus showed that these despised sinners, upon repenting, would gain a position of divine favor, whereas the Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders as a class would lose out. He said: “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God. For John came to you in a way of righteousness, but you did not believe him. However, the tax collectors and the harlots believed him, and you, although you saw this, did not feel regret afterwards so as to believe him.”—Matthew 21:31, 32.
DEATH OF THE “RICH MAN” AND OF “LAZARUS”
What, then, is signified by the death of the “rich man” and of “Lazarus”? We do not need to conclude that it refers to actual death. As used in the Bible, death can also represent a great change in the condition of individuals.* For example: Persons pursuing a course of life contrary to God’s will are spoken of as being ‘dead in trespasses and sins.’ But when they come into an approved standing before God as disciples of Jesus Christ they are referred to as coming “alive.” (Ephesians 2:1, 5; Colossians 2:13) At the same time such living persons become “dead” to sin. We read: “Reckon yourselves to be dead indeed with reference to sin but living with reference to God by Christ Jesus.”—Romans 6:11.

Since both the “rich man” and “Lazarus” of Jesus’ parable are clearly symbolic, logically their deaths are also symbolic. But in what sense do they die?
The key to answering this question lies in what Jesus said just before introducing the illustration: “Everyone that divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he that marries a woman divorced from a husband commits adultery.” (Luke 16:18) This statement may appear to be completely unrelated to the illustration. But this is not the case.
By reason of the Mosaic law the nation of Israel was in a covenant relationship with God and therefore could be spoken of as being a wife to him. At Jeremiah 3:14, for example, God refers to the nation as an unfaithful wife: “‘Return, O you renegade sons,’ is the utterance of Jehovah. ‘For I myself have become the husbandly owner of you people.’” Then, with the coming of Jesus, an opportunity was extended to the Jews to become part of his “bride.” That is why John the Baptist said to his disciples: “You yourselves bear me witness that I said, I am not the Christ, but, I have been sent forth in advance of that one. He that has the bride is the bridegroom. However, the friend of the bridegroom, when he stands and hears him, has a great deal of joy on account of the voice of the bridegroom. Therefore this joy of mine has been made full. That one [Jesus] must go on increasing, but I must go on decreasing.”—John 3:28-30.
In order to become part of Christ’s “bride,” the Jews had to be released from the Law that made them, figuratively speaking, a wife to God. Without such release, they could not come into a wifely relationship with Christ, as that would be an adulterous relationship. The words of Romans 7:1-6 confirm this:
“Can it be that you do not know, brothers, (for I am speaking to those who know law,) that the Law is master over a man as long as he lives? For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive; but if her husband dies, she is discharged from the law of her husband. So, then, while her husband is living, she would be styled an adulteress if she became another man’s. But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s.
“So, my brothers, YOU ALSO WERE MADE DEAD TO THE LAW through the body of the Christ, that you might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God. . . . Now we have been discharged from the Law, because we have died to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.”
While the death of Jesus Christ was the basis for releasing the Jews from the Law, even before his death repentant ones could come into a favored position with God as disciples of his Son. The message and work of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ opened the door for the Jews to seize the opportunity to gain divine favor and put themselves in line for a heavenly inheritance as members of Christ’s bride. As Jesus himself expressed it: “From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of the heavens is the goal toward which men press, and those pressing forward are seizing it.”—Matthew 11:12.
Hence, the work and message of John the Baptist and of Jesus Christ began to lead toward a complete change in the condition of the symbolic “rich man” and “Lazarus.” Both classes died to their former condition. The repentant “Lazarus” class came into a position of divine favor, whereas the “rich man” class came under divine disfavor because of persisting in unrepentance. At one time the “Lazarus” class had looked to the Pharisees and other religious leaders of Judaism for spiritual “crumbs.” But Jesus’ imparting the truth to them filled their spiritual needs. Contrasting the spiritual feeding provided by Jesus with that of the religious leaders, the Bible reports: “The crowds were astounded at his way of teaching; for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.” (Matthew 7:28, 29) Truly a complete reversal had taken place. The religious leaders of Judaism were shown up as having nothing to offer to the “Lazarus” class.
On the day of Pentecost of the year 33 C.E. the change in conditions was accomplished. At that time the new covenant replaced the old Law covenant. Those who had repented and accepted Jesus were then fully released from the old Law covenant. They died to it. On that day of Pentecost there was also unmistakable evidence that the disciples of Jesus Christ had been exalted far above the Pharisees and other prominen
t religious leaders. Not the religious leaders of Judaism, but these disciples received God’s spirit, enabling them to speak about “the magnificent things of God” in the native languages of people from widely scattered places. (Acts 2:5-11) What a marvelous manifestation this was of their having God’s blessing and approval! The “Lazarus” class had indeed come into the favored situation by becoming the spiritual seed of the Greater Abraham, Jehovah.*(See Below) This was pictured as the “bosom position.”—Compare John 1:18.
As for the unrepentant Pharisees and other prominent religious leaders, they were dead to their former position of seeming favor. They were in “Hades.” Remaining unrepentant, they were separated from the faithful disciples of Jesus as if by a “great chasm.” This was a “chasm” of God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment. Of this, we read in Scripture: “Your judicial decision is a vast watery deep.”—Psalm 36:6.

*ABRAHAM PICTURES JEHOVAH
Jesus’ early disciples certainly appreciated Abraham’s importance, he being mentioned 74 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures. In the faith-inspiring 11th chapter of Hebrews, more space is devoted to him than to any other pre-Christian servant of God. Abraham means “Father of a Crowd,” whereas Abram meant “Father Is High.”
The Sacrifice Was “Illustrative”
What a terrible shock it must have been for Abraham, to have to take Isaac, his “only son” whom he so loved, and to “offer him up.” (Genesis 22:1, 2.)
From earliest times Christians have seen in this episode a prefiguration of Jehovah’s sacrificing his Son and then receiving him back by means of the resurrection.
Abraham’s sacrifice was “illustrative.” (Hebrews 11:19) It typified the painful, costly sacrifice Jehovah God made when he sent his beloved Son to earth to die as “the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.” (John 1:29)
Isaac—a young man who could have resisted his 125-year-old father—pictured Jesus Christ, who willingly laid down his human life as the ransom sacrifice.(Heb 7:27; 10:12)
Finally, just as Abraham received his son alive from the altar, Jehovah received his beloved Son back from the dead as a glorious spirit creature. (John 3:16; 1 Peter 3:18)
Seed of Abraham–Jesus
Who, primarily, was the seed of Abraham, by means of whom all nations of the earth would eventually bless themselves? The apostle Paul identifies this primary Seed as being Christ. (Galatians 3:16; Gen 12:1-3; 22:15-18) Since that “seed” has become a spiritual one, the human Abraham was a typical picture of Jehovah God, for this One alone could become the Father of the spiritual “seed,” now the glorified Jesus Christ in the heavens.
“Symbolic Drama”
Abraham was no ordinary “prophet,” for Jehovah used him to enact a grand “symbolic drama” in which the patriarch was greatly honored in acting as a prophetic type of God himself. (Genesis 20:7; Galatians 4:21-26)
“Tell me, you who want to be under law, Do you not hear the Law? For example, it is written that Abraham acquired two sons, one [Ishmael] by the servant girl [Hagar] and one [Isaac] by the free woman [Sarah]; but the one by the servant girl was actually born in the manner of flesh, the other by the free woman through a promise. These things stand as a symbolic drama; for these women mean two covenants, the one [the Law covenant] from Mount Sinai [where God inaugurated that covenant with the Israelites], which brings forth children for slavery, and which is Hagar. [The other covenant was the one made with Abraham regarding his Seed.] Now this Hagar means Sinai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery with her children [descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob]. But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.”—Galatians 4:21-26.
In this symbolic drama, Abraham was a figure of Jehovah. He stands as a prophetic type of Jehovah, the Greater Abraham. “The free woman,” Sarah, pictured God’s “woman,” or heavenly organization of spirit creatures. It produced Christ, the Seed of that symbolic woman and of the Greater Abraham. (Galatians 3:16; Gen 3:15; Rev 12:1,5)
Further, even as Sarah continued long barren, so God’s heavenly Jerusalem, his wifelike organization, continued long barren, until she produced Jesus as the anointed ‘seed of the woman.’ And as Abraham upon two occasions hid his relationship to Sarah, so it has seemed as though Jehovah God had denied his wifely organization or hid his relationship to her for a long period of time, tempting Satan’s agents to violate her representatives upon earth.—Isa. 54:1-8.
As Abraham had two sons by two women, so Jehovah God has had two peoples, the natural Jews by an earthly organization and the spiritual Jews by a heavenly organization, Jerusalem from above. As Hagar, the bondmaid, served in a temporary capacity, so the nation of Israel, in bondage to the law covenant, served in a temporary capacity. As Sarah, the free woman, brought forth the promised seed, so the free heavenly Jerusalem brought forth the promised Heir.—Gal. 4:21-31.
Abraham’s name being made great and his becoming a blessing pictured that Jehovah would make his own name great and that He would be a blessing. (Gen. 12:2; Mal. 1:11)
Repeatedly, Abraham is used to picture Jehovah God. Thus, Jesus spoke of “the bosom position of Abraham” when illustrating a position of favor with God. (Luke 16:22)
To believe otherwise, to believe that Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal, would mean to believe something that goes contrary to other parts of the Bible–Where does the Bible indicate Abraham is?
*************

THE “RICH MAN’S” TORMENT
The “rich man” class was also tormented. How? By the fiery judgment messages of God being proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples.—Compare Revelation 14:10.
That the religious leaders were tormented by the message proclaimed by Jesus’ disciples there can be no question. They tried desperately to stop the proclamation. When the apostles of Jesus Christ made their defense before the Jewish supreme court composed of prominent religious men, the judges “felt deeply cut and were wanting to do away with them.” (Acts 5:33) Later, the disciple Stephen’s defense had a like tormenting effect upon the members of that court. “They felt cut to their hearts and began to gnash their teeth at him.”—Acts 7:54.
These religious leaders wanted the disciples of Jesus to come and ‘cool their tongue.’ They wanted the “Lazarus” class to leave the “bosom position” of God’s favor and present his message in such a way as not to cause them discomfort. Similarly, they wanted the “Lazarus” class to water down God’s message so as not to put their “five brothers,” their religious allies, in a “place of torment.” Yes, they did not want any of their associates to be tormented by judgment messages.
But, as indicated by Jesus’ illustration, neither the “rich man” class nor his religious allies would be freed from the tormenting effects of the message proclaimed by the “Lazarus” class. The apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ refused to water down the message. They refused to stop teaching on the basis of Jesus’ name. Their reply to the Jewish supreme court was: “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.”—Acts 5:29.
If the religious allies of the “rich man” wanted to escape that torment, they could do so. They had “Moses and the Prophets,” that is, they had the inspired Holy Scriptures written by Moses and other ancient prophets. Not once did those inspired Scriptures point to any literal place of torment after death, but they did contain all that was necessary to identify Jesus as the promised Messiah or Christ. (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, 19; 1 Peter 1:10, 11) Hence, if the “rich man” class and his “five brothers” had paid attention to “Moses and the Prophets,” they would have accepted Jesus as the Messiah. Th
at would have brought them in line for divine favor and shielded them from the tormenting effects of God’s judgment message.
CHRISTENDOM SHOULD KNOW
There is little reason for Christendom’s clergymen not to be familiar with this understanding of Jesus’ parable. A leading Protestant commentary, The Interpreter’s Bible, calls attention to a similar explanation. It points out that many interpreters believe Jesus’ words to be “an allegorical appendix that presupposes the conflict between early Christianity and orthodox Judaism. The rich man and his brothers represent the unbelieving Jews. Jesus is made to assert that they have stubbornly refused to repent in spite of the obvious testimony to himself in Scripture and to predict that they will fail to be impressed by his resurrection. It is conceivable that Luke and his readers imposed some such interpretation on these verses.” And, in a footnote on Luke chapter 16, the Catholic Jerusalem Bible acknowledges that this is a “parable in story form without reference to any historical personage.”
In view of this, we can rightly ask: Why have Christendom’s clergymen not at least acknowledged to their church people that this is a parable? Why do those who know that the Bible does not teach the immortality of the human soul continue to put a literal application on an obvious parable? Is this not dishonest? Are they not showing disregard for the Word of God, deliberately hiding the facts?
The illustration of the rich man and Lazarus contains vital lessons for us today. Are we paying attention to the inspired Word of God? Do we desire to follow it as devoted disciples of Jesus Christ? Those who refuse to do so, like the Jewish Pharisees, will not escape the tormenting effects of God’s judgment message against them. His loyal servants will keep right on declaring the truth, fearlessly exposing religious error.
ABRAHAM
The coming one, Jesus, as soon as he heard that John had been arrested, began preaching the same message: “Repent, for the kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.” (Matt. 4:12, 17) He there began weaving the pattern of judgment, working out a harmonious design governed by a set purpose. The first strand, the all-important time element, was marked by the preaching of the Kingdom message. As Jesus said when leading up to the illustration of the rich man and Lazarus: “The Law and the Prophets were until John. From then on the kingdom of God is being declared as good news.”—Luke 16:16.
Jesus then proceeded to take two more strands, saying first: “It is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one particle of a letter of the Law to go unfulfilled.” He then added: “Everyone that divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he that marries a woman divorced from a husband commits adultery.” (Luke 16:17, 18) It is unlikely that his hearers saw any connection between those statements. In fact, not until after the Christian congregation had the inspired writings of the apostle Paul did the situation become clear. In the light of those writings we can today examine those two strands and appreciate their designed purpose.
Jesus not only kept the Law by perfect obedience to its requirements, he also fulfilled it. As he once said: “I came, not to destroy, but to fulfill,” also saying that down to the last “particle of a letter . . . all things [must] take place.” (Matt. 5:17, 18) Paul wrote that the Law was a “shadow [or, “typical representation”] of the things to come, but the reality belongs to the Christ.” (Col. 2:17; Heb. 8:5; 10:1) In his life and sacrificial death, Jesus caused the big realities to take place. One of the main provisions of the Law was that of sacrifice for sins, especially those on the day of atonement. However, those animal sacrifices were “at no time able to take sins away completely. But this man [Jesus] offered one sacrifice for sins perpetually” by laying down his perfect human life in death. (Heb. 10:11, 12) His death laid the foundation for tremendous changes, with great benefits to those exercising faith therein, beginning with the Jewish members of the “Lazarus” class. Having fulfilled its provisions, then, says Paul, that former Law covenant was taken out of the way and nailed to the torture stake on which Jesus was impaled. (Col. 2:14) But what connection did that have with the next strand, with Jesus’ remark about divorce and adultery?
Having acceptably “offered himself without blemish to God,” Jesus was made “a mediator of a new covenant.” (Heb. 9:14, 15) Paul explains that prior thereto the Jews were bound under their Law covenant as “a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is alive . . . But if her husband dies, she is free from his law, so that she is not an adulteress if she becomes another man’s. So, my brothers, you also were made dead to the Law through the body of the Christ, that you might become another’s, the one’s who was raised up from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.” Paul was addressing his brothers of the “Lazarus” class, and it was only such who were “discharged from the Law.”—Rom. 7:1-6.
In contrast, Jesus’ words on divorce and adultery were addressed primarily to the Pharisees, members of the “rich man” class. They were not free from the Law. True, the Law did embody a divorce provision whereby a man could have more than one living wife, but Jesus went back to God’s original pattern for all who would have God’s favor in, or under, the new covenant. There was no divorce provision for Adam and Eve. So for a Christian to divorce his or her mate, except on the ground of sexual unfaithfulness, and then remarry while the divorced partner is still alive, it means that such a one commits adultery. Hence Jesus’ remarks to the Pharisees, who relied on tradition and the teaching of the then unwritten Talmud on this subject, would only irritate them. It was part of their torment.—Deut. 24:1-4; Matt. 19:3-9.
Thus we see the pattern of judgment taking shape. Keep in mind, however, that the changes guaranteed by Jesus’ death began to go into effect before his death actually occurred. The message and work of both John the Baptist and Jesus were based in strong faith on the certainty of Jesus’ carrying out all that was foretold and foreshadowed in the Law and the Prophets. In proof of this, when Jesus instituted the memorial of his death the night before he was impaled, he passed the cup to his disciples, saying: “This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood, which is to be poured out in your behalf . . . and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom.”—Luke 22:20, 29.
No, those changes did not have to wait. The declaration of the good news of the kingdom began to bring about a complete reversal of conditions to both the classes we are considering. From then on both classes died to their former condition and experience, shown in Jesus’ illustration by the death of Lazarus and the rich man. At Jesus’ death in fulfillment of the Mosaic Law the “Lazarus” class died to that Law; and at the following Pentecost they were certified by the outpoured holy spirit as being in the Greater Abraham’s bosom. What happened next, as described by Jesus, and what was signified thereby, we will follow with interest.
ABRAHAM, THE IMPORTANT FIGURE
Imagine the scene. In torment in Hades the rich man lifts his eyes, and what does he see? Why, afar off there is that one-time beggar now enjoying the bosom position with Abraham, that is, the favored place, as when one reclines in front of another on the same couch at a meal! (Luke 16:23; see also John 13:23.) Bringing Abraham into the picture was very significant, adding the most important strand to the whole pattern of judgment. Whom does he picture? Remember, Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. They reckoned that they as the religious rulers were the only ones entitled to the bosom position of Abraham. In their eyes the common people did not come into the
picture at all. Those rulers said to Jesus in an earlier encounter with him: “We are Abraham’s offspring,” and again: “Our father is Abraham,” and yet again: “We have one Father, God.”—John 8:33, 39, 41.
From this it is evident that the Pharisees considered that Abraham represented God. In this they were right. Where they were wrong was in claiming sonship with either Abraham or God. In God’s eyes this relationship is determined, not by fleshly descent, but by one’s disposition and works. As Jesus said to them on that same occasion: “If you are Abraham’s children, do the works of Abraham,” and Jesus also said: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began.”—John 8:39, 44.
While that explains why Jesus pictured that the once rich man was far removed from Abraham, we might wonder why Lazarus, after his death, was pictured as carried straight to the bosom position of Abraham. (Luke 16:22) The emphasis is on faith. Jesus came, not as King, as expected, but in the “likeness of sinful flesh,” “brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering.” (Rom. 8:3; Isa. 53:7) It required real faith to accept him as the Messiah. Some, not the haughty, but the humble, did exercise such faith. They stepped out in faith, just as Abraham did when he “went out [of his own country], although not knowing where he was going.” (Heb. 11:8) They became disciples of Jesus and later, at Pentecost when they received the holy spirit, they became Christians. Of these, Paul wrote: “For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. . . . The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children.”—Rom. 8:14-16.
Paul also said respecting these: “Those who adhere to faith are the ones who are sons of Abraham . . . [and] are being blessed together with faithful Abraham.” How so? To Abraham the grand promise was made that through his seed “all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves.” That seed is primarily Christ Jesus. But in the riches of God’s undeserved kindness others are privileged to share with Christ as part of that seed. As Paul again said: “You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. . . . Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s seed, heirs with reference to a promise.”—Gal. 3:7-9, 16, 26-29; Gen. 22:18.
In summary, then, we see that the members of the Christian congregation, led by God’s spirit, are God’s sons. They are also spoken of as sons of Abraham because of their faith like that of his and because, with Christ Jesus, they constitute Abraham’s seed, God’s instrument for fulfilling his purpose centered in his kingdom. They comprise the “Lazarus” class, commencing with those Jews who were conscious of their spiritual need and who exercised faith when they heard God’s messengers, John the Baptist and Jesus. In fact, John and Jesus acted as angels, or messengers, in bringing those Jews into line for those grand blessings tied in with God’s promise given under oath to Abraham and his seed. No wonder, then, that Jesus pictured Lazarus as at once “carried off by the angels to the bosom position of Abraham.”—Luke 16:22.
Though the “Lazarus” class, to begin with, was limited to the faithful Jews, it did not stay that way. To a certain Gentile army officer who showed unusual faith, Jesus said: “I tell you that many from eastern parts and western parts will come and recline at the table with Abraham and Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of the heavens; whereas the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the darkness outside. There is where their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth will be.” (Matt. 8:5-12) This indicated that many non-Jews, hitherto alienated from God and in a beggarly condition, would come from all parts and be brought right into the bosom of divine favor. As Paul said: “Now the Scripture, seeing in advance that God would declare people of the nations righteous due to faith, declared the good news beforehand to Abraham, namely: ‘By means of you all the nations will be blessed.’” (Gal. 3:8) But as for those who thought that as the natural sons of Abraham they were the undisputed heirs to all the key positions in God’s kingdom, they would find themselves rejected and in torment.
The inclusion of Isaac and Jacob together with Abraham in this instance makes a fine picture of the Kingdom, the Theocracy, in its complete setup. Abraham, the father of those who adhere to faith, pictures the heavenly Father, Jehovah, the real source of all the blessings to the nations. Isaac, Abraham’s son, pictures God’s Son, Jesus Christ. Thus when Abraham offered his son Isaac in sacrifice on Mount Moriah, or went to the point of doing so, he foreshadowed how Jehovah offered up his only-begotten Son in actual sacrifice. In turn, Isaac’s son Jacob pictures the Christian congregation. As Jacob received life from Abraham through Isaac, so likewise the Christian congregation receives spiritual life from Jehovah through Jesus Christ. This congregation started off with a remnant of faithful Jews, but about three and a half years after Pentecost the Kingdom good news began to be preached to the Gentiles, starting with Cornelius. Since then the people of the nations have come in from all parts, making up the full number. All of such constitute the “Lazarus” class.
GOD’S “JUDICIAL DECISION” A “GREAT CHASM”
16 Turning our attention now to the latter part of Jesus’ illustration, taken up with the argument between the rich man and Abraham, we find further expressions of God’s judgment. Note the two pleas made by the rich man. First, he asks that Lazarus be sent to cool his tongue with a drop of water because of the fire. Failing that, he then asks that Lazarus be sent to warn his five brothers about this place of torment. (Luke 16:24-28) Anything to get Lazarus away from Abraham’s bosom, and keep him away! Why did he not ask that the angels be sent on these errands of mercy, seeing how speedily they acted when carrying Lazarus off to Abraham? But, no, it must be Lazarus who must do the running about and act as messenger. From Jesus’ portrayal of the rich man we can only imagine that, if Lazarus had actually visited him and put his finger in his mouth to cool his tongue with a drop of water, the rich man would have got a grip on his finger and kept him there! We know for a fact, as Jesus said, that the scribes and Pharisees strained every nerve to “make one proselyte,” and, having once got him, they made him a ‘subject for Gehenna twice as much so as themselves.’—Matt. 23:15.
How ridiculous to think of this taking place literally, but how appropriate to the facts, since we know the classes Jesus had in mind! So we ask, How did the religious rulers seek to get relief, if by only a drop of water, from the “Lazarus” class? Those men would not have been so tormented if the despised followers of Jesus had just followed him and kept quiet. Instead, they were trained and sent forth, first the twelve and then the seventy. They, and not the rulers, were now acting as Abraham’s seed, conveying heaven-sent blessings, curing the sick and preaching the kingdom of God. (Luke 9:1, 2; 10:1, 9) Come Pentecost, and about 120 were empowered by the holy spirit to speak with tongues, and before the day closed a further 3,000 were added to their number. And their boldness! Both publicly and before the Sanhedrin, the apostle Peter and others, such as Stephen, never hesitated to declare the responsibility and bloodguilt of those rulers. (Acts 2:23; 3:14, 17; 4:10; 5:30; 7:52) As Abraham’s natural descendants, the “rich man” class figuratively called out: “Father Abraham, have mercy on me” and make this “Lazarus” class speak instead in our favor, if only a word! How did Abraham reply?
Abraham’s first words merely stated the facts: “Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Lazarus corresponding
ly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish.” (Luke 16:25) No words were wasted on the rich man. Why not? Because Jesus knew that he was acting as God’s servant in a time of inspection. He was in truth Abraham’s seed and any who called down evil on such seed were cursed by God. (Gen. 12:3) As a class, the “rich man” had had his day, his “lifetime,” when he had ‘received in full the good things’ that he could so easily have dispensed to those in need. But that class showed that they never had any intention of doing so, and now God’s adverse judgment was manifest upon them. God’s favorable judgment was equally manifest on the “Lazarus” class. This was the pattern of judgment, like a design in drawing where one side balances and offsets the other. A strong straight line is drawn right down the middle for emphasis, and this is where the “great chasm” comes in. Note Abraham’s next words to the rich man.
“And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you people, so that those wanting to go over from here to you people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.” (Luke 16:26) No fraternizing! The “Lazarus” class could not compromise and speak peace to the “rich man” class. Jesus appreciated that this was a vital strand in the pattern of judgment, and that God’s “judicial decision is a vast watery deep.” (Ps. 36:6) Mark you, it was only as classes that the judgment was final. Neither class, nor any supporting classes, could cross over to the other, but individuals could and did during their lifetime. The apostle Paul was a notable example who, when “formerly in Judaism,” bitterly persecuted the “Lazarus” class. (Gal. 1:13-17) John the Baptist called the Pharisees and Sadducees “offspring of vipers,” and then said: “Produce fruit that befits repentance.” Some of them later did so.—Matt. 3:7, 8; Acts 6:7.
Knowing the mental attitude of the “rich man” class, Jesus added to his illustration a further argument prompted by the rich man. Trying to ignore or get around that chasm, he pleaded: “In that event I ask you, father, to send him [Lazarus] to the house of my father, for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.” (Luke 16:27, 28) Observe that, while addressing Abraham as father, he speaks of a more closely related father, in whose house there are five brothers of his. Jesus knew of the religious house of Judaism, built on human tradition, to which the religious rulers belonged. It was that house that prompted the spirit of bitter persecution, even of murder. Its father was the Devil, who “was a manslayer.” (John 8:44) The five brothers (with the rich man making six, a symbol of the Devil’s organization) represented all the admirers and supporters of the religious rulers, and manifesting the same spirit. The rulers sought relief from being exposed, not only in their own eyes, but also in the eyes of their supporters. If these, their brothers, were figuratively to die and land in the same place, that would but add to their torment. So, in effect, those rulers wanted the “Lazarus” class to quit the position of divine favor and give a “thorough witness,” not of the judgment message, but one that would give the appearance of things being restored to what they were prior to the inspection period, when neither the rulers nor their supporters were exposed to torment.
Could that be done? What was Abraham’s response? “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” (Luke 16:29) Nothing else and nothing less than God’s word of truth! It was on that authority alone that Jesus spoke to the people and their rulers, including the judgment message then due. The “Lazarus” class spoke likewise. For example, Peter’s strong, stirring message on the day of Pentecost was based entirely on quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, from Moses (the Law) and the Prophets and the Psalms. The fact that three thousand immediately responded and were baptized proved that the Hebrew Scriptures in themselves were a sufficient warning and guide to those willing to listen, many of whom were formerly adherents of Judaism.—Acts 2:41.
But the rich man had not finished. Showing now his true colors and bluntly disagreeing with Abraham, he said: “No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.” (Luke 16:30) In other words, he called for a climactic sign, for someone to rise from the dead, as being the one thing necessary. This would avoid the need either to preach from the Scriptures or to expose the traditions of Judaism. More than once the Pharisees and others asked Jesus to “display to them a sign from heaven.” He answered: “A wicked and adulterous generation keeps on seeking for a sign, but no sign will be given it except the sign of Jonah.” Jonah was a sufficient sign to the Ninevites who, Jesus said, “repented at what Jonah preached, but, look! something more than Jonah is here.” (Matt. 16:1-4; 12:38-41) Jesus preached with far more authority and supporting evidence than Jonah ever did. But the result was as Jesus said: “Unless you people see signs and wonders, you will by no means believe.”—John 4:48.
In agreement with this, Abraham replied to the rich man: “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.” (Luke 16:31) This was the final word of judgment against the class represented by the rich man and his brothers. If they turn a deaf ear to God’s message in the Scriptures, they will turn a blind eye to God’s messenger, whether it be Jesus or the “Lazarus” class. As Jesus told them: “You are searching the Scriptures . . . that bear witness about me,” and he added that, “if you believed Moses you would believe me, for that one wrote about me. But if you do not believe the writings of that one, how will you believe my sayings?”—John 5:39, 46, 47.
Jesus’ illustration ended on a note of strong judgment, as clear cut as that “great chasm.” It showed God’s righteous “judicial decision” both for and against. It was against the whole household of those who only “heard with annoyance,” and who “shut their eyes; that they might never see . . . and get the sense of it with their hearts and turn back.” (Matt. 13:15) But, thank God, that final word was wholly in favor of the “Lazarus” class. There would never be any need or justification for their leaving or forsaking the place of divine favor with all its comforting provisions and opportunity for feasting at Jehovah’s banquet table.
Can we draw parallel lines and extend the pattern of judgment in all its salient features to our own day? Does Jesus’ illustration have a pointed message for us? Can we trace two classes in contrast and see how a great change, a reversal of conditions, has taken place under our very eyes? And are we, as individuals, thereby helped to see what we must do to find true riches under God’s favorable judgment?

WHERE IS ABRAHAM?When Joseph was kidnaped and sold into Egypt, his brothers reported that he had been killed. So his father Jacob (or Israel) refused to take comfort from his other children and JACOB said: “I shall go down mourning to my son into SHEOLl!” (Gen. 37:35) Twenty-two years later nine of Jacob’s older sons wanted to take his youngest son Benjamin down to Egypt to help them to get food from there for the famine. At first JACOB refused and said: “My son will not go down with you men, because his brother is dead and he has been left by himself. If a fatal accident should befall him on the way on which you would go, then you would certainly bring down my gray hairs with grief to SHEOL.” (Gen. 42:38)
Judah also said: “Then it is certain to occur that as soon as he sees that the boy is not there he will simply die, and your slaves will indeed bring down the g
ray hairs of your slave our father [JACOB] with grief to SHEOL.”—Gen. 44:31. (The Greek LXX translates Sheol as Hádes.)
As his death drew near, JACOB said to his son Joseph, the prime minister of Egypt: “I MUST LIE WITH MY FATHERS, and you must carry me out of Egypt and bury me in their grave.” (Gen. 47:30) Joseph swore to do this.
On his deathbed JACOB blessed all twelve of his sons and said to them: “I AM BEING GATHERED TO MY PEOPLE. BURY ME WITH MY FATHERS in the cave that is in the field of Ephron the Hittite, in the cave that is in the field of Machpelah that is in front of Mamre in the land of Canaan, the field that ABRAHAM purchased from Ephron the Hittite for the possession of a burial place. THERE THEY BURIED ABRAHAM and Sarah his wife. THERE THEY BURIED ISAAC and Rebekah his wife, and there I buried Leah.” (Gen. 49:29-31, 33)
This last request of Jacob was carried out, and thus the earthly remains of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob came to rest together in the same burial place, the cave of Machpelah, in what became the territory of Judah. (Gen. 50:12-14)
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? WHERE IS ABRAHAM?
We are thus told that Jacob was gathered to his people, or that he was lying with his forefathers (Abraham, Isaac, etc). And we are also told that Jacob went to Sheol. Hence, it’s reasonable that Jacob’s forefather Abraham was in Sheol, the common grave of mankind.
In all the places where Sheol occurs in the Bible it is never associated with life, activity or torment. Rather, it is often linked with death and inactivity. “All that your hand finds to do, do with your very power, for there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol [grave, King James Version; hell, Douay Version], the place to which you are going.” (Eccl 9:10) Throughout the inspired Scriptures, Sheol is continually associated with death and not life. (1Sa 2:6; 2Sa 22:6; Ps 18:4, 5; 49:7-10, 14, 15; 88:2-6; 89:48; Isa 28:15-18; also compare Ps 116:3, 7-10 with 2Co 4:13, 14.) It is spoken of as “the land of darkness” (Job 10:21) and a place of silence. (Ps 115:17)
Many centuries later Abraham was still in Sheol when his descendant, Jesus Christ, was on earth and told about a “certain rich man” and a “certain beggar named Lazarus.

Anyway….don't feel like you'll read this, so whatever.

[kejonn]

Quote (david @ April 25 2008,14:16)

Anyway….don't feel like you'll read this, so whatever.

You are so right. All of that in one 9-10 wide column is extremely unreadable. Its amazing just how much work one puts into a passage that is only a handful of verses long. I suppose I can find counter explanations every bit as long and tedious as this one. The plain facts are these:
(1) Jesus spoke of a hell (hades) where it appears dead people go. Correct?
(2) Jesus said the the rich man was in torment and was conscious of this fact. Correct?
(3) The torment was from flames. Correct?

Its quite simple then. No matter how much you need for the above to be symbolic, its there, plain as day. That is why it took so much work to refute it: you need to believe it has not literal meaning to support your accepted theology. That's quite OK because we all come to accept our own beliefs.

And don't look to the OT to support the belief that the hell spoken of here is only the grave. In the OT, people know nothing when they die. The parable of Lazarus and the rich man have dead people being consciously aware of their state and whether they are are in hell or “Abraham's bosom”. The OT speaks of no distinguishable Satan character who works independent of Yahweh while the NT does. Also, there is no idea in the OT that people will have to believe in anything to inherit eternal life, much less believe in a messiah. So understand that the theology of the NT does not line up with the OT.

[Stu]

When you make an a priori assumption like:
But the Bible does not contradict itself. So what does this parable given by Jesus mean?
…you know you will be in for a few metres of dense type as the meanings of words are bent out of recognition and common concepts are reinterpreted to make the assumption hold.

If it were literal, it would conflict with other parts of the Bible.

So the only decision a biblical literalist need to make is which of two contradictory versions is the allegorical one. I guess if the two stories do line up then you only need the literal version. Oh, except when it is flatly contradicted by archeological or other evidence. Then you need creationism, and especially a flood that can sort out all the inconsistencies by making a big confusing mess of everything. Then mythology can parade trumphantly unfettered by reality.

Stuart

[942767]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 23 2008,06:32)

Quote (942767 @ April 22 2008,06:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 22 2008,08:29) Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell: Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven).  Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated.  Jesus did not suffer this punishment.  According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence.  In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross. How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)? By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins.  But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians!  In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins? It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer.  Perhaps someone here can come up with one. Hi WhatIsTrue: I hope that I can help you with your questions, and so, I'll try. When the scripture states that “the wages of sin is death” it is speaking of “spiritual death” or separation from God because of sin or “the transgression of God's Eternal Law, the Ten Commandments”, and all of humanity has sinned and if anyone has not been reconciled to God by faith in what God has done for us the the person of Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ, he is spiritually separated from God because of sin.  Of course, all of humanity has mortal body which detiorates and will either either return to the dust, as in Adam, or if he is part of the body of Christ and is alive when Jesus comes for the church, his mortal body will be changed to a spiritual body. And so, when we break God's Laws, the judgment that is against us is the punishment is death or spiritual separation from God.  Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God.  God has seen fit to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as the satisfaction for the judgment that was against all of humanity for the first death, but if they choose not to accept what God has done for them through, Jesus they will have to go through a second death or eternal separation from God which will be the destruction of their body and soul in what is called hell.  Their punishment will according to their works.  I don't believe that anyone will burn in hell forever. Thanks for your reply.  If you don't mind, I have a couple of follow-up questions based on your response. You say: Quote Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. Was Jesus put to death for our sins or for his? Scripture states that he “became sin” for us, and that he “bore”, or took responsibility, for our sins. How then can God declare him “not guilty” if the whole purpose of his death was to take on our guilt?  And, if he was declared “not guilty”, does our guilt yet remain having not been attributed to anybody?

Hi WhatIsTrue:

Jesus was accused of blasphemy by those who condemned him to die, but no, he did not die for his own sins, he died the first death for the sins of all of humanity.  However, although God has forseen all from the beginning to the end, it was necessary for God to judge the life that Jesus lived and declare in that judgment that he had not sinned by raising him from the dead.

Quote

Hbr 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Quote

Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

And so, he suffered all that he did so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to God by coming to God with a repentant heart through him by faith and have all of their sins washed away by the blood that he shed in their behalf.

When we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead and that through this sacrifice God will forgive our sins when we confess Jesus our Lord, the scripture states that we will be saved.

Water baptism signifies we have died to sin in Christ, and have been raised from the dead (spiritual death) just as Jesus was raised again from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God.

Peter when preaching to those who had crucified Jesus in Acts 2 when they believed and asked him what they should do
told them that they should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Quote

Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Quote

Act 2:25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Act 2:26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Act 2:27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act 2:28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Act 2:29  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Act 2:35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Act 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37  Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Of course, the Holy Ghost can be received either before after water baptism.  Salvation is by faith with a repentant heart, and water baptism is a work showing that we have believed and have repented.

When we receive the Holy Ghost, then God is the Father of our Spirit and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come to us from God through Jesus in our daily living.  But we will make mistakes, and so, even after we come to God and are striving to obey His commandments salvation is not of works (because we have not obeyed God's Word without sin unto death) but by grace.
When we sin, Jesus is alive to make intercession for us and therefore, as long as we are striving to obey God, we are kept in the spirit of holiness in that spirit and by the blood of Jesus (the only remedy for sin).

I know that I have given you much more than you asked. I hope that this will answer your questions.

God Bless

[david]

Kejonn, the first paragraph, I condensed it for you:

Quote

WHAT THE PARABLE MEANS–(FIRST, WITHOUT A LOT OF EXPLANATION) The “rich man” represented the self-important religious leaders who are favored with spiritual privileges and opportunities, and who rejected Jesus. (See verse 14.) The beggar Lazarus represented the common Jewish people who were despised by the Pharisees but who hunger for spiritual nourishment. (See Luke 18:11; John 7:49; Matthew 21:31, 32.) Their deaths were also symbolic, representing a change in circumstances or condition, (as death is sometimes figuratively used in the Bible). This change took place when Jesus spiritually fed the formerly despised ones, the neglected Lazarus-like people, so that they die to their former spiritually deprived condition and were brought into the bosom, or favored position of divine favor with the Greater Abraham, Jehovah God. (In the Bible, Abraham sometimes pictures Jehovah.) Whereas they had earlier looked to the religious leaders for what little dropped from the spiritual table, now the Scriptural truths imparted by Jesus are filling their needs. At the same time, the formerly seemingly favored ones (the false religious leaders) were rejected by God or “died” with respect to having God’s favor. Jesus has just finished pointing to a change in circumstances by saying that ‘the Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptizer, but from then on the kingdom of God is being declared.’ Hence, it is with the preaching of John and Jesus Christ that both the rich man and Lazarus die to their former circumstances, or condition. The change in conditions is accomplished a few months later at Pentecost 33 C.E., when the old Law covenant is replaced by the new covenant. It then becomes unmistakably clear that the disciples are favored by God, not the Pharisees and other religious leaders. Being cast off, they suffered torments when Christ’s followers exposed their evil works. They were tormented by God’s fiery judgement messages delivered by the ones whom they had despised. (Acts 5:33; 7:51-57) The “great chasm” that separates the symbolic rich man from Jesus’ disciples therefore represents God’s unchangeable, righteous judgment. (Read Ps 36:6) The rich man next requests “father Abraham” to send Lazarus “to the house of my father, for I have five brothers.” The rich man thus confesses he has a closer relationship to another father, who is actually Satan the Devil. (See John 8:44) Why five brothers? Why not another number? The five brothers (with the rich man making six, a symbol of the Devil’s organization) represented all the admirers and supporters of the religious rulers, and manifesting the same spirit. The rich man requests that Lazarus water down God’s judgment messages so as not to put his “five brothers,” his religious allies, in “this place of torment.” “But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’” Yes, if the “five brothers” would escape torment, all they have to do is heed the writings of Moses and the Prophets that identify Jesus as the Messiah and then become his disciples. But the rich man objects: “‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them they will repent.’ More than once the Pharisees and others asked Jesus to “display to them a sign from heaven.” ” (Matt. 16:1-4; 12:38-41) Going on, “Father Abraham” said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’” (Compare John 5:39,46,47) God will not provide special signs or miracles to convince such. People must read and apply the Scriptures if they would obtain his favor. (See Luke 16:16) For example, Peter’s stirring message on the day of Pentecost was based entirely on quotations from the Hebrew Scriptures, from Moses (the Law) and the Prophets and the Psalms. The fact that three thousand immediately responded and were baptized proved that the Hebrew Scriptures in themselves were a sufficient warning and guide to those willing to listen, many of whom were formerly adherents of Judaism.—Acts 2:41.

Frankly, I'm a little stressed for time right now. Since I've had this conversation before endlessly with Nick, ….have to go….

[david]

Quote

So the only decision a biblical literalist need to make is which of two contradictory versions is the allegorical one. I guess if the two stories do line up then you only need the literal version.

–stu

Not really stu. This PARABLE and the highly symbolic book of revelation are the only places people get confused on this. It's understandable.

But the rest of the Bible is clear:

1.–What does Jeremiah 7:31 say? (Also Jer 32:35; 19:5)
–What does Jeremiah 7:31 tell us about Jehovah?
–How does that thought about Jehovah at Jeremiah 7:31 compare to the teaching of hellfire?
–If it never came into God’s heart, how can can we imagine he does such a thing on a larger scale?

2.– How can the God who tells us in the Bible that we are to love our ENEMIES wish to torture his enemies for eternity? (1 John 4:8-10)

3.–Is eternal torment of the wicked compatible with God's personality and love? “God IS love,” the Bible tells us.
–What loving parent would do such a thing? Would you do so?

4.–If “all” Jehovah's “ways are justice,” (Deut 32:4) and if He is a “lover of justice,” (Ps 37:28-29), then we would expect his judgemnets to be fair, or just, wouldn't we?
–Is tormenting a person eternally because he did wrong on earth for a few years is contrary to justice?
–If a law of exact retribution was given to Israel (eye for eye, tooth for tooth, Ex 21:24) what conclusion can we reach about the doctrine of hellfire–Eternal torment for eternal torment?
–Considering that Jesus’ teachings moderated the idea of retaliation, how can you see justness in eternal torment? (Mt 5:38, 39; Ro 12:17)
–Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life of 70 or 80 years, would everlasting torment be a just punishment?
Justice is “the quality of being just or fair.” –wordnet.princeton.
“Fair” is “conforming with established standards or rules.”–wordnet.princeton.
This means Jehovah, a lover of justice would be fair or conform to his own standards or rules. To not do this would be hypocritical, afterall.
So Jehovah is just, he conforms to his own standards, obviously.
If Jehovah conforms to his own standards, and Jehovah tells us to love our enemies, in what world or universe could you imagine that Jehovah would be fair or just and conform to this standard if He tortured his own enemies for all time.

5.– How does the teaching that the soul is a separate part fit in with the fact that animals are souls? (Ge 1:20,21,24; 2:19; 9:10,12,15; Le 11:10,46; 24:18; Nu 31:28; Job 41:21; Eze 47:9)
–How does the teaching that the soul is separate part of the person fit in with the many clear scriptures that completely disagree with this, and say that a living person IS a soul? (Ge 2:7; 12:15; 14:21; 36:6; 46:15,18,22,25,26,27; Ex 1:5; 12:4,16; 16:16; Le 2:1; 4:2,27; 5:1,2,4,15,17; 6:2; 7:18,20,21,25,27; 17:10,12,1518:29; 20:6; 22:6,11; 23:29,30; 27:2; Nu 5:6; 15:27,28,30; 19:18,22; 31:35,40,46; 35:30; De10:22; 24:6,7; 1Sa 22:22; 2Sa 14:14; 2Ki 12:4; 1Ch 5:21; Ps 19:7; Pr 11:25,30; 16:24; 19:2,15; 25:25; 27:7,9; Jer 43:6; 52:29; La 3:25; Eze 27:13; Ac 2:41,43; 7:14; 27:37; Ro 13:1; 1Co 15:45; 1Pe 3:20; 2Pe 2:14)
–How does the teaching that the soul somehow is separate and survives the death of the body fit in with the scriptures that say soul is mortal, destructible? (Ge 12:13; 17:14; 19:19,20; 37:21; Ex 12:15,19; 31:14; Le 7:20,21,27; 19:8; 22:3; 23:30; 24:17; Nu 9:13; 15:30,31; 19:13,20; 23:10; 31:19; 35:11,15,30; De 19:6,11; 22:26; 27:25; Jos 2:13,14; 10:28,30,32,35,37,39; 11:11; 20:3,9; Jg 5:18; 16:16,30; 1Ki 19:4; 20:31; Job 7:15; 11:20; 18:4; 33:22; 36:14; Ps 7:2; 22:29; 66:9; 69:1; 78:50; 94:17; 106:15; 124:4; Pr 28:17; Isa 55:3; Jer 2:34; 4:10; 18:20; 38:17; 40:14; Eze 13:19; 17:17; 18:4; 22:25,27; 33:6; Mt 2:20; 10:28; 26:38; Mr 3:4; 14:34; Lu 6:9; 17:33; Joh 12:25; Ac 3:23: Ro 11:3; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20; Re 8:9; 12:11; 16:3)
–How does the belief that the soul survives the death of the body fit in with these scriptures that speak of a dead soul or corpse? (Le 19:28; 21:1,11; 22:4; Nu 5:2; 6:6,11; 9:6,7,10; 19:11,13; Hag 4:12)

6.–If sheol and hades aren’t the same thing as some assert, why do we find Hades in Acts 2:31, where sheol occurs in Psalms 16:10?
–Was the one who quoted these words wrong?
–If this isn’t reason to believe they are the same, what other proof could possibly ever be given?

7.–When Jonah was in the big fish and “out of the belly of Sheol [he] cried for help,” was he in fiery torment, or rather, was that about to become his grave?
“Just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish three days and three nights, so the Son of man will be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights.” (Mt 12:40)
Jonah was in what was to be his sheol. Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades. Does this not mean they are the same?

8.–If sheol and hades mean the same thing, and they are a place of fire and torment, why did Job who was suffering a great deal, pray to God: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me,…that you would set a time limit for me and remember me!” (Job 14:13)?
–Did Job want to further his sufferings in fire or go to the grave and end his sufferings?

so I ask:

–If the beggar in Jesus story was literally in hades and on fire, and this fire is real, then what effect will throwing hades (and death) into the lake of fire have?
–If taken literally, wouldn’t it mean that those enjoying divine favor could all fit at the bosom of one man, Abraham? Wouldn’t it mean that the water on one’s fingertip would not be evaporated by the fire of Hades and that a mere drop of water would bring relief to one suffering there? Does that sound reasonable to you?
–If it were literal, do you not see where it would conflict with other parts of the Bible?
–Does the Bible contradict itself?

If you want it to, you can make it by taking this obvious parable as literal. But that's rather dishonest of you stu.

[kejonn]

Regardless of any explanation, please show me a single parable that uses totally false circumstances. That is, while they may be “stories”, all elements of them are possible. Extend that to the “Rich man and Lazarus”. What part becomes impossible?

[WhatIsTrue]

Quote (942767 @ April 26 2008,04:45)

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 23 2008,06:32) Quote (942767 @ April 22 2008,06:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 22 2008,08:29) Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell: Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven).  Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated.  Jesus did not suffer this punishment.  According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence.  In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross. How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)? By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins.  But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians!  In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins? It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer.  Perhaps someone here can come up with one. Hi WhatIsTrue: I hope that I can help you with your questions, and so, I'll try. When the scripture states that “the wages of sin is death” it is speaking of “spiritual death” or separation from God because of sin or “the transgression of God's Eternal Law, the Ten Commandments”, and all of humanity has sinned and if anyone has not been reconciled to God by faith in what God has done for us the the person of Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ, he is spiritually separated from God because of sin.  Of course, all of humanity has mortal body which detiorates and will either either return to the dust, as in Adam, or if he is part of the body of Christ and is alive when Jesus comes for the church, his mortal body will be changed to a spiritual body. And so, when we break God's Laws, the judgment that is against us is the punishment is death or spiritual separation from God.  Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God.  God has seen fit to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as the satisfaction for the judgment that was against all of humanity for the first death, but if they choose not to accept what God has done for them through, Jesus they will have to go through a second death or eternal separation from God which will be the destruction of their body and soul in what is called hell.  Their punishment will according to their works.  I don't believe that anyone will burn in hell forever. Thanks for your reply.  If you don't mind, I have a couple of follow-up questions based on your response. You say: Quote Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. Was Jesus put to death for our sins or for his? Scripture states that he “became sin” for us, and that he “bore”, or took responsibility, for our sins. How then can God declare him “not guilty” if the whole purpose of his death was to take on our guilt?  And, if he was declared “not guilty”, does our guilt yet remain having not been attributed to anybody? Hi WhatIsTrue: Jesus was accused of blasphemy by those who condemned him to die, but no, he did not die for his own sins, he died the first death for the sins of all of humanity.  However, although God has forseen all from the beginning to the end, it was necessary for God to judge the life that Jesus lived and declare in that judgment that he had not sinned by raising him from the dead. Quote Hbr 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Quote Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: And so, he suffered all that he did so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to God by coming to God with a repentant heart through him by faith and have all of their sins washed away by the blood that he shed in their behalf. When we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead and that through this sacrifice God will forgive our sins when we confess Jesus our Lord, the scripture states that we will be saved. Water baptism signifies we have died to sin in Christ, and have been raised from the dead (spiritual death) just as Jesus was raised again from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God. Peter when preaching to those who had crucified Jesus in Acts 2 when they believed and asked him what they should do told them that they should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Quote Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Quote Act 2:25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Act 2:26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Act 2:27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act 2:28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Act 2:29  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Act 2:35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Act 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37  Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. Of course, the Holy Ghost can be received either before after water baptism.  Salvation is by faith with a repentant heart, and water baptism is a work showing that we have believed and have repented. When we receive the Holy Ghost, then God is the Father of our Spirit and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come to us from God through Jesus in our daily living.  But we will make mistakes, and so, even after we come to God and are striving to obey His commandments salvation is not of works (because we have not obeyed God's Word without sin unto death) but by grace. When we sin, Jesus is alive to make intercession for us and therefore, as long as we are striving to obey God, we are kept in the spirit of holiness in that spirit and by the blood of Jesus (the only remedy for sin). I know that I have given you much more than you asked. I hope that this will answer your questions. God Bless

Thanks again for your attempt to answer my question.  I wish that I could say your answer has been helpful, but I can't.  I have heard the gospel message before – many, many times before – so I am not in need of a re-education on that matter.  I am sepcifically interested in the very narrow question of punishment, (i.e. If Jesus was not eternally punished for “our crimes”, then why do Christians believe that individuals will be?)

Again, I have been passively searching for the answer to this question for many years, so I don't expect to suddenly find it now.  I just thought that I would let someone else have a go at it.

[942767]

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 29 2008,09:34)

Quote (942767 @ April 26 2008,04:45) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 23 2008,06:32) Quote (942767 @ April 22 2008,06:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 22 2008,08:29) Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell: Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven).  Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated.  Jesus did not suffer this punishment.  According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence.  In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross. How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)? By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins.  But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians!  In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins? It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer.  Perhaps someone here can come up with one. Hi WhatIsTrue: I hope that I can help you with your questions, and so, I'll try. When the scripture states that “the wages of sin is death” it is speaking of “spiritual death” or separation from God because of sin or “the transgression of God's Eternal Law, the Ten Commandments”, and all of humanity has sinned and if anyone has not been reconciled to God by faith in what God has done for us the the person of Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ, he is spiritually separated from God because of sin.  Of course, all of humanity has mortal body which detiorates and will either either return to the dust, as in Adam, or if he is part of the body of Christ and is alive when Jesus comes for the church, his mortal body will be changed to a spiritual body. And so, when we break God's Laws, the judgment that is against us is the punishment is death or spiritual separation from God.  Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God.  God has seen fit to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as the satisfaction for the judgment that was against all of humanity for the first death, but if they choose not to accept what God has done for them through, Jesus they will have to go through a second death or eternal separation from God which will be the destruction of their body and soul in what is called hell.  Their punishment will according to their works.  I don't believe that anyone will burn in hell forever. Thanks for your reply.  If you don't mind, I have a couple of follow-up questions based on your response. You say: Quote Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. Was Jesus put to death for our sins or for his? Scripture states that he “became sin” for us, and that he “bore”, or took responsibility, for our sins. How then can God declare him “not guilty” if the whole purpose of his death was to take on our guilt?  And, if he was declared “not guilty”, does our guilt yet remain having not been attributed to anybody? Hi WhatIsTrue: Jesus was accused of blasphemy by those who condemned him to die, but no, he did not die for his own sins, he died the first death for the sins of all of humanity.  However, although God has forseen all from the beginning to the end, it was necessary for God to judge the life that Jesus lived and declare in that judgment that he had not sinned by raising him from the dead. Quote Hbr 9:27  And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: Hbr 9:28  So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Quote Rom 1:3  Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; Rom 1:4  And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: And so, he suffered all that he did so that even the most wicked person on earth could be reconciled to God by coming to God with a repentant heart through him by faith and have all of their sins washed away by the blood that he shed in their behalf. When we believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and that God has raised him from the dead and that through this sacrifice God will forgive our sins when we confess Jesus our Lord, the scripture states that we will be saved. Water baptism signifies we have died to sin in Christ, and have been raised from the dead (spiritual death) just as Jesus was raised again from the dead by the Holy Spirit of God. Peter when preaching to those who had crucified Jesus in Acts 2 when they believed and asked him what they should do told them that they should repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sins and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Quote Rom 10:9  That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Rom 10:10  For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Quote Act 2:25  For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: Act 2:26  Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Act 2:27  Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. Act 2:28  Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance. Act 2:29  Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. Act 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Act 2:31  He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. Act 2:32  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Act 2:33  Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. Act 2:34  For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, Act 2:35  Until I make thy foes thy footstool. Act 2:36  Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Act 2:37  Now when they heard [this], they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men [and] brethren, what shall we do? Act 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Act 2:39  For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call. Of course, the Holy Ghost can be received either before after water baptism.  Salvation is by faith with a repentant heart, and water baptism is a work showing that we have believed and have repented. When we receive the Holy Ghost, then God is the Father of our Spirit and we become like Jesus as we learn to apply the commandments that have come to us from God through Jesus in our daily living.  But we will make mistakes, and so, even after we come to God and are striving to obey His commandments salvation is not of works (because we have not obeyed God's Word without sin unto death) but by grace. When we sin, Jesus is alive to make intercession for us and therefore, as long as we are striving to obey God, we are kept in the spirit of holiness in that spirit and by the blood of Jesus (the only remedy for sin). I know that I have given you much more than you asked. I hope that this will answer your questions. God Bless Thanks again for your attempt to answer my question.  I wish that I could say your answer has been helpful, but I can't.  I have heard the gospel message before – many, many times before – so I am not in need of a re-education on that matter.  I am sepcifically interested in the very narrow question of punishment, (i.e. If Jesus was not eternally punished for “our crimes”, then why do Christians believe that individuals will be?) Again, I have been passively searching for the answer to this question for many years, so I don't expect to suddenly find it now.  I just thought that I would let someone else have a go at it.

Hi WhatIsTrue:

Are you saying by the statement “that Christians believe that individuals will be eternally punished” that they believe that individuals will punished forever? If so, there may be some who teach this, but I believe that the wicked who die in their sins will punished according to their works. They will be destroyed, but I don't believe that they will be punished forever.

Anyway, I hope that you find the answer to your question.

God Bless

[Author]

Posts