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Quote When my children disobey I do not slaughter them or deny them my presence forever. –mandy
And what of those who actually want to serve him Mandy? Are they to live with such things forever? Must there be badness and suffering at the hands of the wicked forever?
Eventually, Mandy, do you not think it right for God to remove those who choose to side with his enemy and oppose him?
Quote It's not our fault, either. God was not clear. His Word can be interpreted many, various ways – and it is! True, some even interpret it in a way so as to paint God as a monster, as injust, as cruel. They compare human understanding and justice with his and count him short. And they blame him for not being clear.
If Satan is truly the “ruler of the world” and is “misleading the entire inhabited earth” as the Bible says we can expect that he would try to turn people away from God by making him impersonal (a trinity) and cruel (hellfire) etc. Satan would create a thousand doors that all lead to the wrong place just so you couldn't find that one door that does.
How I feel for those that judge God and that have fallen into the wrong hands. The misinformation program that we call this website is truly astounding and revolting sometimes.
This thread is no exception. According to the Bible, hades or sheol, the common grave of mankind has nothing really to do with Satan and the demons. The dante picture of the devil in “hell” is maybe borrowed from Greek philosophy which probably borrowed it from Babylon. It is part of false religion.
God did not create Satan any more than a mother creates a criminal. Both Satan and criminal chose their path. And “hell” which is often confused with the lake of fire (to which hades (hell)) is thrown in, and therefore not the same, is not a place that Satan lives.
According to the Bible, Jesus was in “sheol”/”hades” (hell) while he was dead for 3 days. According to the Bible, Job wished that he went to hades(hell, the grave) to end his suffering.Such lies as those of eternal torment in hellfire are satanic and non-biblical. Yes, Satan and his demons are thrown into the lake of fire (“meaning the second DEATH”) but so is “hell.” Hell is also thrown into this lake of fire. What effect would fire have on hell?
The lake of fire means the second death….complete destruction.
Most often in the world, if you want to destroy something, make it completely destroyed and gone, you burn it. Hence, the symbolism.If God is love, who would want to oppose him? A better question in my mind would be – why would we want to oppose him? But that is another thread…..
Do you honestly believe that a human being would turn down love? Possibly if they are defective in some way, but otherwise love is a common need that is basic. No, I believe you are talking about obedience. And if the children are disobedient, they should be torn apart by bears, or drowned, or slaughtered. These “bad” and “wicked” children should be sliced! and removed from the “good” children who go to church and desire to do right. Right?
David, here's a news flash for you: no one is good; not you, not even Jesus himself (so he said). We are all wicked (so the bible tells us so). The only difference is those obey and those who do not.
Will you kill your children if they disobey you?
Quote (david @ April 22 2008,17:43) True, some even interpret it in a way so as to paint God as a monster, as injust, as cruel.
Hey, I'm just reading the words in front of me.Quote (david @ April 22 2008,17:47) Quote Will you kill your children if they disobey you? I am not God, Mandy.
Are you?
You may want to re-read your post and use the edit button!No we are not God – he kills his children (so the bible says) – we do not.
Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,10:24) [/quote] seekingtruth,April wrote:kejonn,
I'm very concerned for you, the story you've relayed above distorts the scripture. In scripture those who have done good works are granted entrance into the Kingdom.
Even if they do not accept Jesus once presented with the gospel? And what would you say if I feel concern for those stuck in fundaMENTALism?Concern for others is always a good thing
Quote 34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' There was no mention of as you state of “but wait, you did not accept Jesus when you had the chance, so you cannot enter the new earth”.
Mar 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Good verses but they do not justify the addition you made to the story
Quote Why do you twist scripture?
What scripture am I supposedly twisting?changing the scripture stating admittance of the sheep
Quote 2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
What does this have to do with anything? In any case, scholars pretty much agree that 2 Peter was not written by Simon Peter or even John Mark, his assistant (http://earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html).Caution against twisting scripture
Quote You claim freedom but I fear (as Simon in Acts) you are “full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
OR
You fear I am exposing ancient scripture for what it is: the words of bronze and iron aged Israelites which really only fit the age they were written in. Its much easier to doubt and accuse me than the “word of God”.Your twisting and rejection of scripture has no impact, only facts, not opinions should ever affect my position.
Quote You've rejected scripture so you're left with no foundation.
How little you know of me, yet you want to guess on my status. Such a silly mistake.I'm not guessing, you've stated it quite plainly. If scripture is not reliable then God failed miserably and we have nothing sure to build on.
Quote Luke 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[a] 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
So unless I base my foundation on ancient Jewish thought, I am lost and without foundation? Tell that to the rest of the world that seems to be getting along just fine without it.Are they?
Quote If scripture is as worthless as you proclaim then everyone is left to their own devices and no opinion is any better than another. Wm
Where did you find that I said it is “worthless”. I find that I am enjoying my communication with such close-minded individuals, who see that their way is the only way. It is both enlightening and sad. You are stuck in a mindset of superiority and exclusivity. This started with the Jews and has now extended to both Christianity and Islam. Three faiths, based on the same God, all saying their way is the only way.Sad.
It is not “my way” however if by superiority you mean I have chosen the better way and by exclusivity you mean reserved for those willing to deny self then I pray I'm guilty as charged.
Wm
Did you create the earth Mandy?
Who gave you your life?
Who is responsible for that air you're breathing?
Mandy, you will soon possibly have to undergo a painful operation. (I am sorry about this, surgery is no fun.) Why don't you just skip the operation or going to the hospital? Who needs that grief? Why endure the pain? A good person would never intentionally cause you pain, right?
But you will go the the hospital and you will endure whatever pain is necessary because you understand it is for your well being. You will cause one part of your body pain so that the whole of your body can be well.
And that surgeon will cause you pain, but it will be for your benefit. It doesn't mean he is vindictive.Those kids that were mocking God's prophet, the children that died in the flood, the children that died in the past, if they had any trace of a good heart, I can only imagine Jehovah will resurrect them in the “resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.”
But if there was no trace of any desire to search out their creator, than what hope is there for them?If you are a mother, you must be imagining some “person” attacking your child and casting judgement on him. This was no person, but it was the judge of all.
You failed to actually answer my question:
Eventually, Mandy, do you not think it right for God to remove those who choose to side with his enemy and oppose him?
Quote (Not3in1 @ April 22 2008,10:50) Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,07:02) What is God to do with those choosing disobedience (so they will not ruin heaven)?
1 Modify them by change their nature, and as cato said you're left with automatons
2 Contain them in a separate area, then you've got prisoners
3 Do all you can to save what is possible then remove that which would bring ruin, same as one removes part of a body with cancer, not that you don't want to keep that lung (or whatever) but for the good of the body you do what you have to do otherwise all will be ruined.
When my children disobey I do not slaughter them or deny them my presence forever. I do not send sickness their way, and I certainly wouldn't drowned them!! All of these are options that God has chosen for his disobedient children, according to the bible.But as parents do we treat our children with the same, horrible anger? No! With children who disobey, we are patient and firm. We deliever consequences for their behavior that is appropriate for the mishap. Shoot! Even if our children were to steal, murder and rape, I bet the majority of us would still love them and want them to be safe. No? How come God cannot extend the same love towards his children? Are we really better parents then the Father of them all? Hard to believe.
If you listen to kids when their punished you would think your killing them (I've found grounding from video games to be most effective) lolSeriously though what from our limited finite viewpoint may seem extreme, may be a blessing from an eternal perspective.
Quote You may want to re-read your post and use the edit button! No we are not God – he kills his children (so the bible says) – we do not.
So that's the difference between us and God, Mandy?
God kills his children and we do not. That's what separates us. Other than that, we're prety much the same.
I think something you failed to notice is that not all the people on the planet are considered his “children” as you keep saying.
Some, for example, by choosing to completely oppose him, have made themselves sons of the devil.
Or, notice this scripture:
DEUTERONOMY 32:5
“They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own. A generation crooked and twisted!”I think perhaps God's judgments will leave far fewer untouched than you imagine.
I think this thread points up the gross incompetence that the OT god continually suffers. It is almost like reading a Laurel and Hardy script.
I think discussions here recently have shown that claims of the omnipotence of god are not scriptural, or at least there are verses that cleary contradict it. So we have a god who sees that there is evil having not forseen it, and gets rid of it by drowning everyone, including those who were praying and following the commandments to the letter. Later he sees things have got bad again and so sends a martyr, whose death will be enough in his eyes to somehow cleanse all the things he supposedly doesn't like. Is there evil in the world today? I think the consensus here must be that there is evil(although I abstain from that word because it is a useless one).
So whence the flood and whence the mythological resurrection? What will this incompetent god try next?
Of course 'evil' is in the eye of the beholder, and two believers will disagree about what 'god wants'.
Almost as if he is not even there…
Stuart
Quote (david @ April 22 2008,00:26) Quote After all, the bible says that hell was made for “satan” and his evil spirit pals. Where does the Bible say this Kejonn?
Pardon, the lake of fire. But there is no difference in the final result, the bible says people will be cast in the lake of fire.Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Quote (david @ April 22 2008,00:30) Quote When my children disobey I do not slaughter them or deny them my presence forever. –mandy
And what of those who actually want to serve him Mandy? Are they to live with such things forever? Must there be badness and suffering at the hands of the wicked forever?
Eventually, Mandy, do you not think it right for God to remove those who choose to side with his enemy and oppose him?
So if a person fails to accept the gospel but leads a morally upright life count as an enemy of God? Does a devout loving and peaceful Muslim deserve the lake of fire for choosing Islam? Does a devout loving and peaceful Hindu deserve the lake of fire for choosing Hinduism? An atheist who does not see the evidence of God but leads a morally upstanding life?Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,00:51) Quote (kejonn @ April 22 2008,10:24) [/quote] seekingtruth,April wrote:kejonn,
I'm very concerned for you, the story you've relayed above distorts the scripture. In scripture those who have done good works are granted entrance into the Kingdom.
Even if they do not accept Jesus once presented with the gospel? And what would you say if I feel concern for those stuck in fundaMENTALism?Concern for others is always a good thing
Quote 34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.' There was no mention of as you state of “but wait, you did not accept Jesus when you had the chance, so you cannot enter the new earth”.
Mar 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Good verses but they do not justify the addition you made to the story
Quote Why do you twist scripture?
What scripture am I supposedly twisting?changing the scripture stating admittance of the sheep
Quote 2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.
What does this have to do with anything? In any case, scholars pretty much agree that 2 Peter was not written by Simon Peter or even John Mark, his assistant (http://earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html).Caution against twisting scripture
Quote You claim freedom but I fear (as Simon in Acts) you are “full of bitterness and captive to sin.”
OR
You fear I am exposing ancient scripture for what it is: the words of bronze and iron aged Israelites which really only fit the age they were written in. Its much easier to doubt and accuse me than the “word of God”.Your twisting and rejection of scripture has no impact, only facts, not opinions should ever affect my position.
Quote You've rejected scripture so you're left with no foundation.
How little you know of me, yet you want to guess on my status. Such a silly mistake.I'm not guessing, you've stated it quite plainly. If scripture is not reliable then God failed miserably and we have nothing sure to build on.
Quote Luke 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[a] 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”
So unless I base my foundation on ancient Jewish thought, I am lost and without foundation? Tell that to the rest of the world that seems to be getting along just fine without it.Are they?
Quote If scripture is as worthless as you proclaim then everyone is left to their own devices and no opinion is any better than another. Wm
Where did you find that I said it is “worthless”. I find that I am enjoying my communication with such close-minded individuals, who see that their way is the only way. It is both enlightening and sad. You are stuck in a mindset of superiority and exclusivity. This started with the Jews and has now extended to both Christianity and Islam. Three faiths, based on the same God, all saying their way is the only way.Sad.
It is not “my way” however if by superiority you mean I have chosen the better way and by exclusivity you mean reserved for those willing to deny self then I pray I'm guilty as charged.
Wm
You still did not show me where I twisted scripture.Quote (david @ April 22 2008,00:57) Those kids that were mocking God's prophet, the children that died in the flood, the children that died in the past, if they had any trace of a good heart, I can only imagine Jehovah will resurrect them in the “resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous.“
Is that what it comes down to, imagining? Where are we shown where Yahweh gave the people that were killed in the OT an opportunity to repent? These people may not have even heard of Yahweh!Quote (Not3in1 @ April 22 2008,15:35) [Hi Cato, I have a close friend who is a Buddhist and she believes in reincarnation. I think the idea of birth and rebirth is facinating, however I wonder if there is such a thing as “getting it right”? Say someone was on their third life and they finally “got it right” – do you think we would be able to pick these folks out of a crowd? What would getting it right look like, do you think?
To be sure I don't know, but I would expect a more advanced soul would show signs of wisdom and understanding in greater degrees then his fellow man. The ultimate example would be Jesus, who I view as human, but one who's spirit was advanced to the point of not needing to come back to earth at all, but came any way as teacher and example. I am sure many of the world's great teachers were advanced souls of humanity. People all mature at different rates physically, emotionally and mentally, I suspect spiritual advancement is no different. God, I would think would create a plan taking this account and set up a school (life) for advancement that would take into account the individual needs of our souls development so that we can ultimately rise to whatever purpose we were created for. That more then one life would be needed seems apparent if God is not to lose a majority of creation to failure. Do I have proof or scripture to support this, no it is just my opinion. It seems at least from my narrow perspective, a better, fairer and more reasonable method for dealing with our spiritual development.Quote (942767 @ April 22 2008,06:29) Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 22 2008,08:29) Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell: Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven). Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated. Jesus did not suffer this punishment. According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence. In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross.
How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)?
By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins. But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians! In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins?
It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer. Perhaps someone here can come up with one.
Hi WhatIsTrue:I hope that I can help you with your questions, and so, I'll try.
When the scripture states that “the wages of sin is death” it is speaking of “spiritual death” or separation from God because of sin or “the transgression of God's Eternal Law, the Ten Commandments”, and all of humanity has sinned and if anyone has not been reconciled to God by faith in what God has done for us the the person of Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ, he is spiritually separated from God because of sin. Of course, all of humanity has mortal body which detiorates and will either either return to the dust, as in Adam, or if he is part of the body of Christ and is alive when Jesus comes for the church, his mortal body will be changed to a spiritual body.
And so, when we break God's Laws, the judgment that is against us is the punishment is death or spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. God has seen fit to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as the satisfaction for the judgment that was against all of humanity for the first death, but if they choose not to accept what God has done for them through, Jesus they will have to go through a second death or eternal separation from God which will be the destruction of their body and soul in what is called hell. Their punishment will according to their works. I don't believe that anyone will burn in hell forever.
Thanks for your reply. If you don't mind, I have a couple of follow-up questions based on your response.You say:
Quote Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. Was Jesus put to death for our sins or for his?
Scripture states that he “became sin” for us, and that he “bore”, or took responsibility, for our sins.
How then can God declare him “not guilty” if the whole purpose of his death was to take on our guilt? And, if he was declared “not guilty”, does our guilt yet remain having not been attributed to anybody?
What Is True! Hello, Jesus never sinned, He died for our sins, so we can live. That is why it says that Christ has set us free from death and sin. We now live under His Blood. He died for all of our sins, past, present, and future. Does that give us a license to sin, certainly not. It is our responsibility to grow in faith and knowledge of God.
Peace and Love Mrs.Quote Pardon, the lake of fire. But there is no difference in the final result, the bible says people will be cast in the lake of fire. Very good. and what does the Bible say the lake of fire is? “the second DEATH.”
Referring to that symbolic lake, in which even “hell” is cast, we are told: “this means the second death.”
Apparently, the “second death” is “death” from which there is no hope of return.
The fact that hell is thrown in should tell you something Kejonn.Quote Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Yes, Satan will also face this “second death” and be gone forever.Quote So if a person fails to accept the gospel but leads a morally upright life count as an enemy of God? Does a devout loving and peaceful Muslim deserve the lake of fire for choosing Islam? Does a devout loving and peaceful Hindu deserve the lake of fire for choosing Hinduism? An atheist who does not see the evidence of God but leads a morally upstanding life?
Often, a person or a child will do what THEY think is the right way. But it is not always the right way.
As foretold, the good news is being preached in all the world, and everyone is getting a chance to hear. (Mat 24:14)And I think God wants more than a person to “be good.”
A parent requires more than a child to do what the child thinks is good. A parent often has specific things the child has to do. If the child refuses and says I'm doing what I think is good, how will that go?
Quote (david @ April 22 2008,23:36) Quote Pardon, the lake of fire. But there is no difference in the final result, the bible says people will be cast in the lake of fire. Very good. and what does the Bible say the lake of fire is? “the second DEATH.”
Referring to that symbolic lake, in which even “hell” is cast, we are told: “this means the second death.”
Apparently, the “second death” is “death” from which there is no hope of return.
The fact that hell is thrown in should tell you something Kejonn.- Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.So the lake of fire is eternal torment for the the devil, beast and false prophet. What is it for everyone else? Death can have many meanings in the bible — it does not necessarily mean the immediate cessation of life. Yahweh told A&E they would die yet they did not — what was their “death”?
Quote Quote Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
Yes, Satan will also face this “second death” and be gone forever.Quote So if a person fails to accept the gospel but leads a morally upright life count as an enemy of God? Does a devout loving and peaceful Muslim deserve the lake of fire for choosing Islam? Does a devout loving and peaceful Hindu deserve the lake of fire for choosing Hinduism? An atheist who does not see the evidence of God but leads a morally upstanding life?
Often, a person or a child will do what THEY think is the right way. But it is not always the right way.
As foretold, the good news is being preached in all the world, and everyone is getting a chance to hear. (Mat 24:14)And I think God wants more than a person to “be good.”
A parent requires more than a child to do what the child thinks is good. A parent often has specific things the child has to do. If the child refuses and says I'm doing what I think is good, how will that go?
Typical Christian rhetoric, which basically means you are willing to condemn 2/3 of humanity to the lake of fire.
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