Deserving of hell?

Participant

I often heard — and even said myself when I was a Christian — that we are all deserving of hell. But now I ask “why?”.

After all, the bible says that hell was made for “satan” and his evil spirit pals. So why would humans be automatically deserving of a place made for evil spirits?

April 21, 2008 at 3:20 pm#88005

Participant

I believe it is because of our very nature, why did God have to destroy satan and his cronies anyway? I believe our very existence here on earth has shown what happens when sin is allowed to continue. God allowed satan for a short time to continue in a redeemable environment (corporeal realm) to show sin for what it really is.

God is not looking for a reason to send us there, quite the contrary, He sent His Son to pay the price so we do not have to go there. I believe that this displayed to all of heaven the length He would go to redeem His creation. I further believe that those who have never heard of Jesus will be judged by grace of their works and are the sheep of the sheep and goats divided at the final judgment. We are all selfish by nature but I believe that those who during their sojourn in this life learn to love righteousness have shown they have the “right stuff” to be awarded citizenship in an eternal kingdom without fear of their corrupting it. I do want to be clear that trusting in “the way” is a much more sure way.

One other point which factors in is, when the “goats” are punished, I believe it is in proportion to their sins at which time they cease to exist (eternally). To teach that God would burn a grandmother in hell for eternity simply for not having heard the gospel, has been one of the worst lies bought into by the traditional church.

April 21, 2008 at 3:35 pm#88007

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 21 2008,10:20)

God is not looking for a reason to send us there, quite the contrary, He sent His Son to pay the price so we do not have to go there.

Then what of the millions of people who lived and died before Jesus? Why did Yahweh wait so long to send the redemption?

Quote

I believe that this displayed to all of heaven the length He would go to redeem His creation. I further believe that those who have never heard of Jesus will be judged by grace of their works and are the sheep of the sheep and goats divided at the final judgment.

Ah yes, but what if a person hears of Jesus yet fails to accept him? Will the person's good works from that point on be all for naught? Can you not see where this fails? Would it not have been better if you never told such a person of Jesus, because you are in reality taking the chance of condemning the person to hell by forcing them to make the descision.

Its like eternally “blackballing” someone for failing to make one descision.

Quote

We are all selfish by nature but I believe that those who during their sojourn in this life learn to love righteousness have shown they have the “right stuff” to be awarded citizenship in an eternal kingdom without fear of their corrupting it. I do want to be clear that trusting in “the way” is a much more sure way.

Again, see above. What happens to this same person if they hear of and fail to accept Jesus? Does this one descision then seal their fate forever?

Quote

But again, what if that grandmother had heard of the gospel, and found that it did not make sense, thus she never accepted it. What is her fate? Is the only difference then whether or not she accepted Jesus?

April 21, 2008 at 3:45 pm#88008

Participant

Jesus paid the price for ALL (from Adam to the last). If you hear of Jesus and chose to reject Him it would most likely depend on why you rejected it.

April 21, 2008 at 4:47 pm#88012

Participant

But our very “nature” was given from God. I have a hard time buying that one puny man, Adam, decided for us all what our nature will be. And that God judges us by this nature that we were handed….not by choice….but because one man decided to disobey God!

I'm finding it more and more ridiculous the more I think about it. Geesh.

April 21, 2008 at 5:47 pm#88019

Cato

Participant

I think it all goes back to the various hypotheses on why we exist as a race. If God did make man, I am sure he did not do so without purpose or forethought. I would venture he would have anticipated the various problems of creating beings having both spiritual and material natures. Furthermore if we were to be, in truth, more then automatons driven by instinct and programming we must have independent will. Independent will and ignorance is an obvious recipe for sin, folly and mistake until the ignorance is replaced with knowledge and will tempored by wisdom and control. When mankind and civilization advance they do it over long periods of time by both evolution and revolution. We advance or decline both as a people and individuals over time; my point being I think God would know this, and would make allowances for this slow gradual and nonlinear, rate of progression. As independently willed beings, God would let us make mistakes and pay the consequences for our own folly (that is part of the learning process), yet if part of this was our consignment to eternal punishment in some nether realm or simply oblivion (the destruction of our core essence), it would indicate God has either: One, little patience, Two is not interested in our advancement, or Three made a major design mistake in our creation. If any of these is true, then Hell is a true destination for much of humanity, and Jesus was merely a way to salvage a small portion of that mistake.

Having said this I can postulate that there may indeed be dark nether realms of some sort, but I don't think the Almighty consigns any soul to such.

April 21, 2008 at 6:36 pm#88022

Participant

Cato,
I couldn't agree with you more, and I certainly couldn't say it any better!

However, you must know that your view, and mine, do not agree with the bible and the orthodox view of 94 and other's. Their message is that we are damned if we do not choose to follow the bible (i.e., God's Word). Once we hear God's Word (the bible), we are no longer ignorant and therefore if we do not follow the rules therein, we are damned to punishment. We are essentially wicked, in other words. I don't buy it.

April 21, 2008 at 6:59 pm#88027

Participant

Mandy,

I think you should realize by now that there is too much in religion, particularly the Abrahamic flavors, that is abuse of humanity. Much of it is about a priest class keeping people in line. You can see that coming through in Jesus' teachings, but I fear that his life was hijacked and added to by the very same people who wanted to keep their followers in line.

That is why you get the over all feeling of “accept Jesus or burn”. That is the same sense of exclusivity that the RCC has, but it expands itself to Christianity as a whole. Thus, if you are Hindu, Muslim, Buddhist, Taoist, Jew, etc., you are wrong: God has only provided one way and it is the way of Jesus. It does not matter if you are a benevolent person who has done more for your fellow man, its all about accepting one obscure itinerant preacher who had a minstry for a few years in some backwater Jewish towns.

Picture this if you will. You are ressurrected and stand to be judged. A list of all of works is read off, and it appears you are doing fairly well overall. You gave to charity, you worked with the homeless unselfishly, you were a good parent, you honored your parents. You hear “well done”. As you step toward your eternal reward you hear “but wait, you did not accept Jesus when you had the chance, so you cannot enter the new earth”. You are told to stand amongst a throng of people awaiting the lake of fire.

Behind you comes a man. His list of crimes against humanity is read off. On earth, he was aleader who wantonly ordered the death of many innocents. He stood by as women were raped and children killed. He even participated. Surely you are ready to see him join you in the massive pile of “sinners”. But then you hear “but on your deathbed you accepted Jesus. Enter into your eternal reward”.

Eternal reward or punishment all based on one decision? I think not.

April 21, 2008 at 7:02 pm#88028

Participant

Mandy,
You left off the best part – Romans 5:15But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

What is God to do with those choosing disobedience (so they will not ruin heaven)?
1 Modify them by change their nature, and as cato said you're left with automatons
2 Contain them in a separate area, then you've got prisoners
3 Do all you can to save what is possible then remove that which would bring ruin, same as one removes part of a body with cancer, not that you don't want to keep that lung (or whatever) but for the good of the body you do what you have to do otherwise all will be ruined.

April 21, 2008 at 8:29 pm#88030

WhatIsTrue

Participant

Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell:

Jesus is said to be the ransom for our sins, (i.e. he took our punishment upon himself so that we could be forgiven). Yet, according to mainstream Christianity, if we “die without Christ”, then we will either be sentenced to eternal torment or we will be eternally annihilated. Jesus did not suffer this punishment. According to scripture, he is not presently being tormented in some literally God-forsaken place, nor has he been blotted out from existence. In fact, some Christians even believe that he went to heaven after he died on the cross.

How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)?

By the way, a typical Christian might be tempted to give the response that the “wages of sin is death” so Jesus only needed to die to pay for our sins. But, if this is true, every man pays for his own sins, because we all die – including Christians! In other words, if Jesus being dead for 3 days can suffice as a payment for the “wages of sin” of mankind, then why can't a three day death, (or more if the person was really bad), suffice as a payment for an individual's sins?

It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer. Perhaps someone here can come up with one.

April 21, 2008 at 10:20 pm#88035

Cato

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,07:02)

Seeking Truth,
For those who disobey, which evidently is the overwhelming majority of humanity, your right that options 1 and 2 are infeasible. Option 3 is certainly available but after the cutting off of the “cancer” you would have very little left of the body which would imply a design failure. What I would suggest is that perhaps God offers a fourth option, go back and relearn your lessons until your soul matures enough to get it right. Repeating a grade in the school of spiritual evolution so to speak. Sounds like a better plan to me, I don't think God would have created a system that fails the majority of his hopefully beloved creation.

April 21, 2008 at 11:29 pm#88039

942767

Participant

Quote (WhatIsTrue @ April 22 2008,08:29)

Here's another conundrum with the doctrine of hell:

How then is Jesus's ransom equivalent to the punishment that mankind has been proscribed, (according to mainstream Christian theology)?

It's a question that I have always had as a Christian, and I have never heard a convincing answer. Perhaps someone here can come up with one.

Hi WhatIsTrue:

I hope that I can help you with your questions, and so, I'll try.

When the scripture states that “the wages of sin is death” it is speaking of “spiritual death” or separation from God because of sin or “the transgression of God's Eternal Law, the Ten Commandments”, and all of humanity has sinned and if anyone has not been reconciled to God by faith in what God has done for us the the person of Jesus, His only begotten Son and His Christ, he is spiritually separated from God because of sin. Of course, all of humanity has mortal body which detiorates and will either either return to the dust, as in Adam, or if he is part of the body of Christ and is alive when Jesus comes for the church, his mortal body will be changed to a spiritual body.

And so, when we break God's Laws, the judgment that is against us is the punishment is death or spiritual separation from God. Jesus obeyed God without sin, but was spirtually separated from God for three days and nights, but because he did not sin God has declared him not guilty and has, therefore, raised him from the dead (spiritual and physical) and he has ascended into heaven to be the head of the church at the right hand of God. God has seen fit to accept the sacrifice of Jesus as the satisfaction for the judgment that was against all of humanity for the first death, but if they choose not to accept what God has done for them through, Jesus they will have to go through a second death or eternal separation from God which will be the destruction of their body and soul in what is called hell. Their punishment will according to their works. I don't believe that anyone will burn in hell forever.

April 22, 2008 at 2:28 am#88058

Participant

kejonn,
I'm very concerned for you, the story you've relayed above distorts the scripture. In scripture those who have done good works are granted entrance into the Kingdom.

34″Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

There was no mention of as you state of “but wait, you did not accept Jesus when you had the chance, so you cannot enter the new earth”.

Why do you twist scripture?

2 Peter 3:15 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation—as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, 16 as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

You claim freedom but I fear (as Simon in Acts) you are “full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

You've rejected scripture so you're left with no foundation.

Luke 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was founded on the rock.[a] 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”

If scripture is as worthless as you proclaim then everyone is left to their own devices and no opinion is any better than another.

April 22, 2008 at 3:24 am#88059

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 21 2008,21:28)

kejonn,
I'm very concerned for you, the story you've relayed above distorts the scripture. In scripture those who have done good works are granted entrance into the Kingdom.

Even if they do not accept Jesus once presented with the gospel? And what would you say if I feel concern for those stuck in fundaMENTALism?

Quote

There was no mention of as you state of “but wait, you did not accept Jesus when you had the chance, so you cannot enter the new earth”.

Mar 16:16 “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Quote

Why do you twist scripture?

What scripture am I supposedly twisting?

Quote

What does this have to do with anything? In any case, scholars pretty much agree that 2 Peter was not written by Simon Peter or even John Mark, his assistant (http://earlychristianwritings.com/2peter.html).

Quote

You claim freedom but I fear (as Simon in Acts) you are “full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

OR
You fear I am exposing ancient scripture for what it is: the words of bronze and iron aged Israelites which really only fit the age they were written in. Its much easier to doubt and accuse me than the “word of God”.

Quote

You've rejected scripture so you're left with no foundation.

How little you know of me, yet you want to guess on my status. Such a silly mistake.

Quote

So unless I base my foundation on ancient Jewish thought, I am lost and without foundation? Tell that to the rest of the world that seems to be getting along just fine without it.

Quote

If scripture is as worthless as you proclaim then everyone is left to their own devices and no opinion is any better than another.

Where did you find that I said it is “worthless”. I find that I am enjoying my communication with such close-minded individuals, who see that their way is the only way. It is both enlightening and sad. You are stuck in a mindset of superiority and exclusivity. This started with the Jews and has now extended to both Christianity and Islam. Three faiths, based on the same God, all saying their way is the only way.

Sad.

April 22, 2008 at 3:35 am#88060

Participant

Quote (Cato @ April 22 2008,10:20)

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,07:02)

Hi Cato,

I have a close friend who is a Buddhist and she believes in reincarnation. I think the idea of birth and rebirth is facinating, however I wonder if there is such a thing as “getting it right”? Say someone was on their third life and they finally “got it right” – do you think we would be able to pick these folks out of a crowd? What would getting it right look like, do you think?

April 22, 2008 at 3:37 am#88061

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,14:28)

everyone is left to their own devices and no opinion is any better than another.

I agree!

It's not our fault, either. God was not clear. His Word can be interpreted many, various ways – and it is! Even among brother's of the same faith/sect, the message is slightly different.

April 22, 2008 at 3:50 am#88063

Participant

Quote (seekingtruth @ April 22 2008,07:02)

When my children disobey I do not slaughter them or deny them my presence forever. I do not send sickness their way, and I certainly wouldn't drowned them!! All of these are options that God has chosen for his disobedient children, according to the bible.

But as parents do we treat our children with the same, horrible anger? No! With children who disobey, we are patient and firm. We deliever consequences for their behavior that is appropriate for the mishap. Shoot! Even if our children were to steal, murder and rape, I bet the majority of us would still love them and want them to be safe. No? How come God cannot extend the same love towards his children? Are we really better parents then the Father of them all? Hard to believe.

April 22, 2008 at 3:54 am#88064