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A quote from t8:
Quote Quote (david @ Mar. 25 2006,20:24)
T8, let's say that you are exactly right. Let's go even further. Let's say that you have a complete understanding of the Bible and understand everything perfectly.
And as you're following Jesus command (Mat 28:19,20; 24:14) to preach and make disciples of people of all the nations, some actually start to believe what you say (from the Bible, of course.) And so you meet together and don't forsake the gathering of yourselves together as some do (Heb 10:24,25) and more and more people start attending, wanting to learn what you know. And what you know is correct, right? So, pretty soon, the group of fellowshipping grows. And grows.
At this point, do you say: “This is starting to look too much like we're organized,” and separate yourselves from them?Just curious.
david.
Hi david,
First of I am the first to say that I have a lot to learn. I hope to be learning for all eternity and I am only decades in age at the moment.
Secondly if people believe what I teach regarding the true nature of God then I would assume that most believed it before I taught it and many do, simply because in reality there are many more people who believe these things than people I have spoken to about it. I am not so ignorant to think that I alone have the understanding and you have to come to me to get it.
But lets say your hypothesis regarding some kind of following based on what I teach arises, then such people would have the understanding that starting a denomination is wrong. In this case they would have to understand the truth that the Body of Christ predates the Jehovah Witnesses and even the Catholics. Simply put they would be left where the diciples of Christ were before they started following men who built things in their own name and caused a great falling away. They would also be able to fellowship with any other true believer anywhere and anytime. They wouldn't see the need to build systems that end up to be so big that they serve it instead of it serving them.
But lets say for argument sake that some kind of movement called say 'the tenomin8 shin' starts up based around what I teach. They shave all their hair off, wear say a red cape, and donate 10% of their worldly possessions to me. In that case if I were true to my own words, I should be the first to say that they have ears but cannot hear. For they would be doing the very thing that I told them not. Although I would weigh that up with how much money I received from their tithe. Ok that last sentence was a joke.
But this silly scenario in reality is exactly what happend regarding Christ. He said something like “My kingdom is not of this world, if it were I would have soldiers protecting me and a board of directors, and financial advisors etc. But then what do men do. They create kingdoms of this world with armies and directors complete with buildings and even with their own name or the founders name stamped on it. Worse still they compete with each other and say we are the true Church, or we are closer to the truth than the others. Some even think that members of their own denomination are brothers and other christians are more like cousins. Looking at a newspaper's religous advertising pages, you may see things like “Come to OUR Church”, or “we have something the others do not”, or maybe you would see “we have a brand new temple”. In short you would see them competing for your mighty dollar/tithe just as you see any worldly business compete in any other market.
Anyway, remember when Moses led God's people out of Egypt? Did they not moan and complain about it. I certainly expect to hear people moan and groan when they are led out of Babylon by those who God has called. I also expect that many would want to stay put just as they did in Sodom and Gomorrah.
In short, I teach that we are the Body and to not fall for the lie that a particular denomination is exclusively the Church. I also teach that the creeds of men and men's traditions are contrary to God's will for he wants us to build on the true foundation. If I am wrong regarding this, then correct me. I have ears to hear with and a heart after the truth. It would be in my interest to hear your correction if what you said was contary to my words yet scriptural and right.
OK, so you said:
“Secondly if people believe what I teach [from the Bible] regarding the true nature of God then I would assume that most believed it before I taught it and many do, simply because in reality there are many more people who believe these things than people I have spoken to about it.”
I find this hard to believe. So, you often come across people that believe exactly as you do, in matters of doctrine, and Godly standards? Yet, Nick Hassen, the very one you chose to be the other administrator to this forum, disagreed completely with you on whether or not God tortures people in hellfire. (I agree with you that he doesn't.)
But let's assume that what you believe is correct–the trinity is false, eternal torment in hellfire is false, etc… and that you are doing something like what the early disciples did, preached to people everywhere. (Most people I would think wouldn't already believe just as you do.)So you're saying that one of your beliefs is that: People that believe what you do and have the same Godly standards as you–you're saying that if there are too many of them together, you should separate and not fellowship together?–And you're saying this simply because of your hatred of various denominations (a hatred which I realize is justified.)
Quote I am not so ignorant to think that I alone have the understanding and you have to come to me to get it.
No, I'm not saying that. But you do understand the Bible and are correct in your understanding, right? So if you share the good news of Christ and the kingdom as the Bible commands, and if some listen and obtain an accurate knowledge of God and Christ and the Bible and work on developing the fruits of the spirit and prove to be as exempary as you–you're saying that your belief system would no longer allow for fellowshiping?Quote But lets say your hypothesis regarding some kind of following based on what I teach arises, then such people would have the understanding that starting a denomination is wrong. I'm not suggesting you begin a new religion. But what if some listen to what you teach from the Bible, what if it just clicks in their minds and suddenly everything makes sense to them? And they tell all their friends and a couple listen. And what they're telling others is what the Bible says, just as you understand it, the correct way, right? And more and more people begin to be associated with your … group, not “your” group, but the group you now belong to. So, you're saying that as soon as you realize you're a bunch of people with the same beliefs, you will separate?
Quote They would also be able to fellowship with any other true believer anywhere and anytime.
I kind of wonder what you mean by “true believer”–because as far as I can tell, y
ou mean people who 'truly believe' different things.Quote Worse still they compete with each other and say we are the true Church, or we are closer to the truth than the others.
t8, every time you disagree with someone on this forum, you are saying you are closer to the truth than others.
And if there were a growing bunch of you who believed as you do, the truth of the Bible, then there would be a group who is closer to the truth than others, right?
I don't remember the early Christians being so wishy washy, lukewarm. I believe they knew they had the truth.Quote Looking at a newspaper's religous advertising pages, you may see things like “Come to OUR Church”, or “we have something the others do not”, or maybe you would see “we have a brand new temple”. In short you would see them competing for your mighty dollar/tithe just as you see any worldly business compete in any other market.
Such things are truly wrong. But they wouldn't be any part of what you and the group who understand the Bible do, would they?Quote In short, I teach that we are the Body and to not fall for the lie that a particular denomination is exclusively the Church. I also teach that the creeds of men and men's traditions are contrary to God's will for he wants us to build on the true foundation. I would like you to define: “we,” those that are the “body.” As far as I can tell, there is no 'we,' and if there were, you would be guilty of going against your own teaching.
david.
Quote
If I search for truth with all my heart and trust no denomination to be my provider of truth, is that somehow wrong?
Of cours there is nothing wrong with searching for truth with all your heart. As far as I can tell however, you support the t8 form of Christianity. Call it what you like, it has it's own distinctive belief system.The basic meaning of denomination is:
“a religious group whose beliefs differ in some ways from other groups in the same religion.” (Cambridge)Find a couple people who agree with your beliefs and by definition, you have a very very small denomination, do you not?
Yet, we are supposed to preach the good news, “teaching them to observe all the things I commanded you,” said Jesus. (Mat 28:19)
We are not supposed to forsake the gather of ourselves together, AS SOME HAVE THE CUSTOM. (Heb 10:24,25)david
david,
I challenge you to find in the scriptures where God or his son told us to set up denominations/cults/man made churches. I also challenge you to find where God is said to be a Trinity.
You and I both know that such things are not scriptural. You know the Trinity is not there, yet I think you try and justify your church/denomination/cult/call it what you will, existence in the same way. Also similar to the way Catholics try and justify the Trinity and their churches existence.
I mainly teach 2 things: that God is one and he has a son, and secondly that we (those who are of God) are the Church. That is why I say that we do not go to church because we are the Church. If God has put this on my heart to share with others, then is there a point to being obstructive with what God has given me to do? I have faced much opposition over these things, but I must remain faithful to God, (with God's help).
If you want to say it is my brand of Christianity then go ahead, you have free will and can say what you will, but maybe it is really about not being able to handle a person who seeks truth with an honest heart and says it as it is. I think that you subscribe to letting a certain man made organisation set your doctrine for you which I find to be quite reckless considering how inportant your faith in God is. Yes I admit that there is unity in such things, but I suppose that there was unity in the Nazi Party too.
Unity set down by an organisation is not the unity that God wants. God wants unity in his Spirit. But if your teachers do not even believe that we can be born from above (born again) then I completely understand why you cannot understand what I am saying and accuse me of starting up a denomination or cult. But perhaps you should take a note from history and see that God certainly does raise up people to deliver a message. But if you reject the message then all there is left is to critisize I suppose.
I think that you and all who perpetuate the lie that denomination(s) are God's design are prisoners. The walls are nothing but man-made doctrines and traditions of the denomination/church that you are trying to promote. How can you escape this prison if you cannot even see the prison walls. If your eyes are open you would realise how easy it is to walk out and be free.
david, if you want to truly ride a bike, then take the training wheels off. While you have those bulky items strapped to your faith, you will never reach the potential that God has for you. But if you cast them away, you may even fall over from time to time, but you will grow and truly be free to go places.
You see God created you as a unique creature to reflect him in a special way. So long as you subscribe to a denomination/man made church/cult, you will only ever attain the image that they have decided for you. But wouldn't it be better to reflect God and let his spirit be your teacher. To be his image is something you should not inhibit but live to do. You cannot do this when men set the limits of your faith.
Yes Nick and myself disagreed on some things, but even Paul disagreed with Barnabus and who said we are perfect. I am certainly not saying that. As it turns out, Nick and myself agreed on most things, yet I never met the guy before he posted here.
Like I said, I preach that YHWH is God and Yeshua/Jesus is his son. I also teach that Christ's body is the Church and is not any one denomination. I teach that we should be wary of people who say “my church is better than yours”, “my church is the correct one” or “you must belong to a denomination”.
I challenge you to fault these 2 things. If you cannot, then there is no reason to oppose me. If you can find fault then I am all ears.
Proverbs 12:1
Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge,
but he who hates correction is stupid.T8, David,
12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.I think this says it best.
To “all ears,”
Quote But if your teachers do not even believe that we can be born from above (born again) then I completely understand why you cannot understand what I am saying and accuse me of starting up a denomination or cult
What I believe you call my “teachers” have all been born again. You are misrepresenting what I said, and this is another topic.Quote But if your teachers do not even believe that we can be born from above (born again) then I completely understand why you cannot understand what I am saying and accuse me of starting up a denomination or cult.
t8, I am not actually suggesting (or accusing) that you have started a non-denomination denomination. That seems somewhat … impossible.
I was just trying to show that being organized in itself isn't a bad thing. The work that Jesus commanded his followers is a worldwide work that requires organization, if everyone is to receive the same message of salvation. The early Christians were organized, with elders or “overseers” (e·pi´sko·poi) in the congregations, and “ministerial servants” (di·a´ko·noi).
I'm quite certain you wouldn't tell the early Christians that they shouldn't be organized. They had to be organized to get anything done.I would like to again quote something you said in your previous post regarding denominations:
Quote Quote
Worse still they compete with each other and say we are the true Church, or we are closer to the truth than the others.
Yet, do you not believe you are a part of the true Church of non-denominationalism? And every time you disagree with someone, are you not saying you are closer to the truth than the others?
(I dislike the word “church” which appears in some Bibles. It's translated from a word that basically means “to call together,” I think. I believe the word should be “congregation.” In peoples minds, the word “church” equals “religion.” But that's not how it's used in the Bible.)Quote I challenge you to find in the scriptures where God or his son told us to set up denominations/cults/man made churches
He never told us to set up different forms of Christianity. But when Christianity was new there was only one kind and that obviously represented the truth. I believe within a hundred years after the death of the last apostle, John, there were about 20 forms of Christianity and 50 years later, many many more. The fact that counterfeit money exists does not mean there is no real money. Imagine you were the apostle John's grandson. You believe you understand the truth of Christianity and haven't made any changes like the other forms of changing Christianity around you. And someone comes up to you and says: “I don't believe in denominations. Flee from organized religion!” What would your responce be?Most religious organizations have produced bad fruitage. IT IS NOT THE FACT THAT GROUPS ARE ORGANIZED THAT IS BAD. But many have promoted forms of worship that are based on false teachings and are largely ritualistic instead of providing genuine spiritual guidance; they have been misused to control the lives of people for selfish objectives; they have been overly concerned with money collections and ornate houses of worship instead of spiritual values; their members are often hypocritical.
Early Christianity was refreshing and a contrast to all of that. Nevertheless, to fulfill the Bible’s requirements, it must be organized.Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. To where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.” (An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)
Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.” (The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.)
t8, organization in itself is not a bad thing.
Jehovah's heavenly creatures are organized. In times past God conveyed instructions to his servants on earth in an organized way. Physical creation indicates that Jehovah is organized.Are those who are faithful servants of God simply individuals who are scattered in the various churches of Christendom?
2 Cor. 6:15-18: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’ ‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
(Is a person really a faithful servant of God if he continues to share in worship with those who show by their way of life that they really are unbelievers?)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through th
e name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
(Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?)Quote Like I said, I preach that YHWH is God and Yeshua/Jesus is his son. I also teach that Christ's body is the Church and is not any one denomination. I teach that we should be wary of people who say “my church is better than yours”, “my church is the correct one” or “you must belong to a denomination”.
Yes, definitely be wary. “By their fruits you will recognize those men.”t8, I am disgusted by the hypocrasy, luxury, lies, abuses of power, etc, found in worldly denominations. I completely understand your complete lack of tolerance for them. True Christianity would be a very different thing wouldnt' it. It wouldn't be at all like the worldly religions, would it?
Quote I challenge you to find in the scriptures where God or his son told us to set up denominations/cults/man made churches. I also challenge you to find where God is said to be a Trinity. Quote Like I said, I preach that YHWH is God and Yeshua/Jesus is his son. I also teach that Christ's body is the Church and is not any one denomination. I teach that we should be wary of people who say “my church is better than yours”, “my church is the correct one” or “you must belong to a denomination”. I challenge you to fault these 2 things. If you cannot, then there is no reason to oppose me. If you can find fault then I am all ears.
You are right. There should not be divisions in Christianity. If 10 people are asked a math problem and they give 10 different answers, then at least 9 of them have to be wrong. They do not logically all HAVE TO BE wrong. This proves that denominations in themselves are not wrong, but that most have to be, since they all disagree, hence, the word–denominations.
At the very most, they are all wrong.
At the very least, one is right. (since they all disagree)
This is what logic tells me.Being organized is not wrong.
t8, how long does this poll go for?
Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2006,19:28) To “all ears,” Quote But if your teachers do not even believe that we can be born from above (born again) then I completely understand why you cannot understand what I am saying and accuse me of starting up a denomination or cult
What I believe you call my “teachers” have all been born again. You are misrepresenting what I said, and this is another topic.
To david,OK great. I thought that JWs had a problem with being born from above. Or is it that only 144,000 can be born again. Anyway as you say, that is another topic.
Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2006,19:28) t8, I am not actually suggesting (or accusing) that you have started a non-denomination denomination. That seems somewhat … impossible.
I was just trying to show that being organized in itself isn't a bad thing. The work that Jesus commanded his followers is a worldwide work that requires organization, if everyone is to receive the same message of salvation. The early Christians were organized, with elders or “overseers” (e·pi´sko·poi) in the congregations, and “ministerial servants” (di·a´ko·noi).
I'm quite certain you wouldn't tell the early Christians that they shouldn't be organized. They had to be organized to get anything done.
Yes the Body of Christ is an organisation that is true. But I am more talking about organisations that claim to be the whole body. I know that the Catholics claimed exclusivity but have somewhat forfeited this point in recent times. I think the JWs may consider themselves to be the true church too. Maybe you can enlighten me here.There is the Body and then there are these organisations who do things in their own name. This is what I am talking about. These organisations even have their own foundation which is usually a creed of some kind. Usually these organisations came from one person.
Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2006,19:28) He never told us to set up different forms of Christianity. But when Christianity was new there was only one kind and that obviously represented the truth. I believe within a hundred years after the death of the last apostle, John, there were about 20 forms of Christianity and 50 years later, many many more. The fact that counterfeit money exists does not mean there is no real money. Imagine you were the apostle John's grandson. You believe you understand the truth of Christianity and haven't made any changes like the other forms of changing Christianity around you. And someone comes up to you and says: “I don't believe in denominations. Flee from organized religion!” What would your responce be?
In that case I would say “I do not partake in these man-made denominations”. But if I belonged to a group that had different beliefs, or had some leader at the top, or an organisation that required a tithe, then I should heed that message.Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2006,19:28) Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)
Hi david,First off Christ is the head of the body and he grows and directs his own body. The Church is the Body, and yet we see all these churches. So are there many bodies or one body?
Next, it is silly to believe that a particular denomination or man-made church is the true Church. The true Church is the Body of Christ and there is only one body. Therefore let us cast away false teachings based on pride that say the Church is the JWs or the Catholics. This thinking is carnal in nature and causes division and harms the Body. Even saying I am a this or I am a that is a casue for division. Even, “I am a follower of this person or that organisation”. This is foolish and harmful. Such people are not acting in accordance with the Spirit.
Ephesians 1:22-23
“And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.”So the CHURCH is the BODY and there is only one Body. So why are there many Churches?
Romans 12:5
so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others.1 Corinthians 10:17
Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.1 Corinthians 12:12
The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.1 Corinthians 12:13
For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.1 Corinthians 12:20
As it is, there are many parts, but one body.Ephesians 3:6
This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.Ephesians 4:4
There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were calledEphesians 4:25
Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body.Colossians 3:15
Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful.Taken from:
http://www.gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.htmlI am not endorsing this website nor their statement of faith. I did like this writing however.
Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church. The word church comes from the Greek word “Ecclesia” which is defined as “an assembly,” or “called out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people. It is ironic that when you ask people what church they attend they usually say Baptist, Methodist, or another denomination. Many times they are referring to a denomination or a building. Read Romans 16:5: “…also greet the church that is in their house…” Paul refers to the church in their house, not a church building, but a body of believers.
The church is the Body of Christ. Ephesians 1:22-23 says, “And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.” The Body of Christ is made up of all believers from the time of Pentecost until the Rapture. The Body of Christ is comprised of two aspects:
The universal church is the church that consists of all those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 12:13 says, “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.” We see that anyone who believes is part of the body of Christ. The true church of God is not any particular church building or denomination. The universal church of God is all those who have received salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.
The local church is described in Galatians 1:1-2, “Paul, an apostle…and all the brethren who are with me, to the churches of Galatia.” Here we see that in the province of Galatia there were many churches – what we call a local church. A Baptist church, Lutheran church, Catholic church, etc. is not THE church, as in the universal church – but rather is a local church. The universal church is comprised of those who have trusted in Christ for salvation. These members of the universal church should seek fellowship and edification in a local church.
In summary, the church is not a building, or a denomination. According to the Bible, the church is the Body of Christ – all those who have placed their faith in Jesus Christ for salvation (John 3:16; 1 Corinthians 12:13). There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.
Quote Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church. The word church comes from the Greek word “Ecclesia” which is defined as “an assembly,” or “called out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.
Yes, a few pages back I said the same thing. My Bible has the word “congregation” where most Bible's have the word “church.” “Congregate means “to gather together,” or to assemble. Church, however has many different definitions, most of which do not fit with the original word used in the Bible. It's a confusing word.Quote There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.
Every kingdom divided against itself will fall. And who makes up this universal church, this church made up of people with different beliefs, and standards of conduct? The worldly churches that go to war with each other and kill one another when the world goes to war?Jesus made clear that there would be many that believed they were following him, but were really “workers of lawlessness.”
MATTHEW 7:21-22
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’”Paul warned of such ones. Notice his warning:
2 TIMOTHY 3:1,2,5
“But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be. . . . having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”The early Christians were criticized because they claimed to possess the truth of the one true God. They were not open to ecumenism, or interfaith. Historian Kenneth Scott Latourette wrote:
“Unlike most of the faiths of the time, they [the Christians] were hostile to other religions. . . . In contrast with the fairly broad tolerance which characterized other cults, they declared that they had final truth.” (A History of the Expansion of Christianity, Volume 1, page 131)“From these turn away,” wrote Paul.
He did not say to join yourself to them.1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)And such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.
Quote Quote (david @ Mar. 28 2006,19:28)
He never told us to set up different forms of Christianity. But when Christianity was new there was only one kind and that obviously represented the truth. I believe within a hundred years after the death of the last apostle, John, there were about 20 forms of Christianity and 50 years later, many many more. The fact that counterfeit money exists does not mean there is no real money. Imagine you were the apostle John's grandson. You believe you understand the truth of Christianity and haven't made any changes like the other forms of changing Christianity around you. And someone comes up to you and says: “I don't believe in denominations. Flee from organized religion!” What would your responce be?In that case I would say “I do not partake in these man-made denominations”. But if I belonged to a group that had different beliefs, or had some leader at the top, or an organisation that required a tithe, then I should heed that message.
So you would willingly be part of a denomination (but not a man-made denomination), if you lived in the second century and believed you were still part of true Christianity, correct?
Is the unBiblical practice of tithing practiced by some denominations a part of your appropriate dislike for most denominations?
david
I would like to put these down again in bold, in the hopes they are not glossed over.
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together, as some have the custom, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. To where would a person direct interested ones so they could obey this command if there were no organization with regular meetings where they could gather?)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)1 Pet. 2:9, 17: “But you are ‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession, that you should declare abroad the excellencies’ of the one that called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. . . . Have love for the whole association of brothers.” (An association of people whose efforts are directed to accomplish a particular work is an organization.)
Matt. 24:14; 28:19,20: “This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.” “Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them . . . teaching them.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. How would this be accomplished without organization? When Jesus trained his early disciples for this work, He did not simply tell each one to go wherever he desired and to share his faith in whatever way he chose. He trained them, gave them instructions and sent them out in an organized manner. See Luke 8:1; 9:1-6; 10:1-16.)1 Cor. 14:33, 40: “God is a God, not of disorder, but of peace. . . . Let all things take place decently and by arrangement.” (The apostle Paul is here discussing orderly procedure at congregation meetings. Applying this inspired counsel requires respect for organization.)
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Are those who are faithful servants of God simply individuals who are scattered in the various churches of Christendom?2 Cor. 6:15-18: “What portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever? . . . ‘Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’; ‘and I will take you in.’ ‘And I shall be a father to you, and you will be sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah the Almighty.”
(Is a person really a faithful servant of God if he continues to share in worship with those who show by their way of life that they really are unbelievers?)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)John 10:16: “I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”
(Since Jesus would bring such ones into “one flock,” is it not obvious that they could not be scattered in Christendom’s religions?)I just stumbled across a question on a website that made me laugh:
'If Jesus were on earth today, would he be a baptist, a Muslim, a Methodist….or would he simply be a Christian?'
Think about what the word “Christian” means before you answer.
It's just a question I came across that bothered me.david
In order to have unity of denominations, they all need to stoop to the lowest common denominator. This all embracing unity is not the same thing as unity in the Spirit.
The Spirit is what unifies the Church. We are all members of the same body and Christ is our head. We are joined with God, Christ, and each other in God's Spirit. In this way we are one.
The Spirit of God obviously comes from God and comes to us by way of his son.
We are the branches and Jesus is the vine. No Jesus, then no vine from which we can grow. The Father is the vine dresser.
When we see the true Church by revelation of God, we then can realise that which is counterfeit and man-made. The Church is Christ's Body. It is not a particular denomination or council of denominations.
What a cheek some people have, thinking that they can start up a Church, charge it's followers 10% of their income, and then say they are the Church. What a joke. Do they not realise that Christ is the head of the Church? Or are they blinded by the tithes that usually come there way?
Do not be led astray. If you belong to Christ, then you are part of the Church, no matter where you are.
To david,
Quote (david @ Mar. 30 2006,00:38) 'If Jesus were on earth today, would he be a baptist, a Muslim, a Methodist….or would he simply be a Christian?'
He would be the son of God and the Messiah.He could not be a follower of Christ as he is the Christ.
He also wouldn't adhere to any denomination. He would call out to his own and his own would hear him.
Amen,
Men are still like Peter wanting to build buildings to celebrate their faith. They want the security of likeminded people to surround them more than they are willing to test the beliefs those others promote.
Choose today whom you will follow.Quote (david @ Mar. 29 2006,15:50) Quote Many people today understand the church as a building. This is not the Biblical understanding of the church. The word church comes from the Greek word “Ecclesia” which is defined as “an assembly,” or “called out ones.” The root meaning of “church” is not that of a building, but of people.
Yes, a few pages back I said the same thing. My Bible has the word “congregation” where most Bible's have the word “church.” “Congregate means “to gather together,” or to assemble. Church, however has many different definitions, most of which do not fit with the original word used in the Bible. It's a confusing word.Quote There are members of the universal church (the Body of Christ) in local churches.
Every kingdom divided against itself will fall. And who makes up this universal church, this church made up of people with different beliefs, and standards of conduct? The worldly churches that go to war with each other and kill one another when the world goes to war?Jesus made clear that there would be many that believed they were following him, but were really “workers of lawlessness.”
MATTHEW 7:21-22
““Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’”Paul warned of such ones. Notice his warning:
2 TIMOTHY 3:1,2,5
“But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be. . . . having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away.”The early Christians were criticized because they claimed to possess the truth of the one true God. They were not open to ecumenism, or interfaith. Historian Kenneth Scott Latourette wrote:
“Unlike most of the faiths of the time, they [the Christians] were hostile to other religions. . . . In contrast with the fairly broad tolerance which characterized other cults, they declared that they had final truth.” (A History of the Expansion of Christianity, Volume 1, page 131)“From these turn away,” wrote Paul.
He did not say to join yourself to them.1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity does not exist among the varied churches of Christendom.)And such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.
To david,And that agency that we should all respect is the Jehovah Witnesses is it david? Am I reading between the lines correctly?
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