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Neither myself or Nick is the truth. Jesus is.
Ok, t8, this is all I've read so far, but are you saying we'd be better off reading the Bible than discussing it with you?
Of course neither of you is the truth. But do you represent the truth?Quote We as servants can only humble ourselves and realise that we can only know truth as it is revealed. A big part of truth being revealed is being innocent like a child.
I applaud your humility. It is something I tend to lack when speaking on this forum.Quote We are not and never have said that we are the truth.
ok, yes. But so when you say something, I am not to assume that it is truthful? Again, I know you are not “the truth.” But do you have the truth? Do you represent truthful teachings? Do you believe the truth?Quote I get the feeling david that you know how rediculous a situation it is when all these denominations including yours say they are the way. So like most who do not want to face their predicament, they look at someone else in order to make themsleves look or feel good. Not at all. Unlike you, who say you are not the truth, I am completely convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses represent true Christianity today. This forum has convinced me of that more than ever.
T8, of course it is impossible for two people (such as you and Nick) or two, or a thousand denominations to be correct,when they disagree. Simple logic tells us that.
But to make the leap that they are all wrong, or to make the leap that every person is wrong….is wrong. Satan has created a lot of false beliefs, a lot of doors that lead in the wrong direction. Anything to lead you away from serving God as he wants to be served is a victory for Satan. He wants to be worshipped with spirit and truth.
You start with a sound concept–two people that disagree cannot both be right. Then you look at the millions of people who all believe different things and say: “oh my.” You then jump to a false conclusion–that none of them are correct.
Well, that is not sound reasoning. It is possible that one of them are correct, or ones that agree are correct. But any two that disagree with each other cannot both be correct.
In other words, when everyone disagrees, when everyone tells a different story, at the very most, one can be correct. Or possibly all are wrong. Those are the two possibilities. You do not see or cannot accept the first, yet you reason that such a possibility is impossible, as though it's mathematically impossible. It's not.Quote But the answer is simple. Jesus is the way, not us, nor the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, or Methodists.
Yes, Jesus is the “way and the truth and the life.” None of these groups claim to be Jesus. They claim to be followers of Jesus.
As a side note, in the Bible the Christians were spoken of as being the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9,23; 22:4) because Christianity was a way of life.Quote We do not follow other so-called ways, rather we have looked to the foundations of true faith and are building from there. We never said we were 100% correct or erfect. On the contrary we realise without God we have nothing.
Again, humble.Hey Nick.
How is your health?Quote Amen t8
Hi david,
Your repeated attempts at planting division in the body of Christ continues to be ineffective and also are not a good reflection on your denomination.
C'mon david! You know enough about the bible to be able to teach others the real truth, but you must be brave and step out from behind those minders and meet the Master yourself.
Then you will to be able to see the kingdom.I'm sorry if it seemed like I was trying to divide you. You and T8 are brothers and I am sorry for this and actually felt a little bad about that last post. I was not dividing you, but showing the division in fundamental beliefs and hence the fact that as T8 points out, neither you nor him are the truth, or “100% correct or perfect.”
But I was applying the same logic to you two as he was applying to me. His logic applies even moreso to himself.Nick, you seem angered by my pointing these things out. I only did so because T8 was using that false logic to try to prove something. I bounced the same logic back on him. I am sorry if this upset you.
Hey t8 again
Quote Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;NOTE: 'my people'.
But what do they come out to? Do they come out of Babylon but keep their former beliefs? Or are they to be united in spirit and thought and purpose, as you (or Nick) previously said. (I can't remember.) If they step out of Babylon, really step out, would that not mean leaving behind all babylonian beliefs? Would it also not mean rejecting all false God dishonouring teachings? It would seem that somewhere out there, there would be a group that has come out of Babylon the Great, a group that is united in beliefs, thought and purpose. But that group cannot be those whom you think are scattered in and among the churches of christendom. They still cling to falsehood. They have not rejected what God hates and will destroy. If they are to come out, let them come out and not look behind.Quote Is it such a stretch to believe that many christians have been led astray? Well scripture actually teaches this. You do not have to stretch your imagination for this, for it is written:
Yes, I know it. I've said it a hundred times on here. Many who claim to be Christians or followers of Christ are really workers of lawlessness. They say “lord, Lord,” yet they would not do this if they didn't think he would listen. They have been mislead.“By their fruits you will recognize them.”
Hi david,
Acts 2.38 says it all.
Repentance is a ploughing of the ground to receive good seed. Many want to bring their old baggage like trinity or denominationalism into the kingdom but all must leave that rubbish at the gate and walk into the death of Jesus by repentance, water and the Spirit. All have sinned and have nothing to bring to Christ that is any use to him. All our own righteousness is as filthy rags.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2006,21:50) Hi david,
Acts 2.38 says it all.
Repentance is a ploughing of the ground to receive good seed. Many want to bring their old baggage like trinity or denominationalism into the kingdom but all must leave that rubbish at the gate and walk into the death of Jesus by repentance, water and the Spirit. All have sinned and have nothing to bring to Christ that is any use to him. All our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Amen and Amen!I know the trinity could be desribed as such, because I know where it comes from.
Are fellow believers and brothers “rubbish” or “filthy rags”?Hi david,
If we think God owes us any favours we have not understood the gospel. If we think we can do anything useful for the kingdom outside of him and the will of God again the one and only good thing he has specified is helping his brothers and sisters [matt25]. That will save many in the second resurrection.
It is useless to say we know him. He must know us. It is useless to say he is our Lord because we have made him Lord. We must obey our lords who have authority over us.
He says
“Why do you call me' Lord, Lord' and not do what I say?”
Because
“All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”
“Unless you repent you shall all likewise perish”Jesus is our righteousness. We have none of our own. We must put on the breastplate of righteousness, we must put on the robe of the King. We can work day and night all our lives with the inytent of serving God but it is His will we need to find for ourselves, not work according to our own.
He said we must be born again. If we do not enter through the gate it will close and we will still be standing outside calling for it to be reopened and it will not.
Works done in our own will are but filthy rags. God loves all his children and wants all to be saved, but as Paul wept for the Jews in Romans 9 who loved God but tried to set up their own righteousness we can do the same futile things.
I honestly don't care. Its not that one becomes close minded by denomination. I can pretty much tell what ya believe by the way you speak or what view you hold. But the division is already there. We are all not brothers and sisters in Christ. I say what I say now, not in disrespect to other beliefs but to clarify where i stand. Anyone who accepts the word of God and what it teaches is my brother or sister.
Jws are not my brothers, Christadelphians are not my brothers, buddist, mormons, maryolgy Catholics, and all other sects that do not adhere to the deity of Christ and The teaches of our tri-une God are not my brothers. Scripture shows the Tri-uneness of God. People say i am not open minded and shut things out cause they are from certain denominations. Well isn't that what you do when i show you where it speaks about the trinity in scriptures.
JW's say they are the only true church, mormons say they are the only true church, and most Catholics(not all) say they are the only true church. Well you all can't be the true church and you can't say i am your brother in Christ when we don't believe the same(doctrine that is key to salvation). I as a born again christian say that The Christendom church of today isn't the true church. The true church is the Body of Christ(true believers). It has no walls. Denominations and religions are the tools of Satan to divide God's people. Now it has happened and we are so far from unity in Christ. Throw down the chains of false teachings. Jesus is God. This is truth, believe or don't. You have to live with the decision you make, not me.Hi ootlg,
The church has walls made of living stones and it is built on what is written.
Trinity is not written.Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 30 2006,21:50) Hi david,
Acts 2.38 says it all.
Repentance is a ploughing of the ground to receive good seed. Many want to bring their old baggage like trinity or denominationalism into the kingdom but all must leave that rubbish at the gate and walk into the death of Jesus by repentance, water and the Spirit. All have sinned and have nothing to bring to Christ that is any use to him. All our own righteousness is as filthy rags.
Amen Nick,I couldn't have said it any better !!!!!!!!!1
Quote (david @ May 30 2006,02:14) Quote
Neither myself or Nick is the truth. Jesus is.
Ok, t8, this is all I've read so far, but are you saying we'd be better off reading the Bible than discussing it with you?
Of course neither of you is the truth. But do you represent the truth?Quote We as servants can only humble ourselves and realise that we can only know truth as it is revealed. A big part of truth being revealed is being innocent like a child.
I applaud your humility. It is something I tend to lack when speaking on this forum.Quote We are not and never have said that we are the truth.
ok, yes. But so when you say something, I am not to assume that it is truthful? Again, I know you are not “the truth.” But do you have the truth? Do you represent truthful teachings? Do you believe the truth?Quote I get the feeling david that you know how rediculous a situation it is when all these denominations including yours say they are the way. So like most who do not want to face their predicament, they look at someone else in order to make themsleves look or feel good. Not at all. Unlike you, who say you are not the truth, I am completely convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses represent true Christianity today. This forum has convinced me of that more than ever.
T8, of course it is impossible for two people (such as you and Nick) or two, or a thousand denominations to be correct,when they disagree. Simple logic tells us that.
But to make the leap that they are all wrong, or to make the leap that every person is wrong….is wrong. Satan has created a lot of false beliefs, a lot of doors that lead in the wrong direction. Anything to lead you away from serving God as he wants to be served is a victory for Satan. He wants to be worshipped with spirit and truth.
You start with a sound concept–two people that disagree cannot both be right. Then you look at the millions of people who all believe different things and say: “oh my.” You then jump to a false conclusion–that none of them are correct.
Well, that is not sound reasoning. It is possible that one of them are correct, or ones that agree are correct. But any two that disagree with each other cannot both be correct.
In other words, when everyone disagrees, when everyone tells a different story, at the very most, one can be correct. Or possibly all are wrong. Those are the two possibilities. You do not see or cannot accept the first, yet you reason that such a possibility is impossible, as though it's mathematically impossible. It's not.Quote But the answer is simple. Jesus is the way, not us, nor the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, or Methodists.
Yes, Jesus is the “way and the truth and the life.” None of these groups claim to be Jesus. They claim to be followers of Jesus.
As a side note, in the Bible the Christians were spoken of as being the Way (Acts 9:2; 19:9,23; 22:4) because Christianity was a way of life.Quote We do not follow other so-called ways, rather we have looked to the foundations of true faith and are building from there. We never said we were 100% correct or erfect. On the contrary we realise without God we have nothing.
Again, humble.
I didn't see your posts before david.I am saying that we are not the truth in the same way Jesus said that only God was good. If I say that I am not the truth, that shouldn't lead anyone to think that I am saying that I am false.
The other option is that someone else is the truth and I am trying to align my life with that someone else. In other words I am a student of truth, not the master. Just as Christ was the recipient of good and not the source.“You say that you are completely convinced that Jehovah's Witnesses represent true Christianity today. This forum has convinced me of that more than ever.”
Well I have to strongly disagree with your point of view. The JWs are not the truth and have made plenty of errors as all denominations have. They have falsely prophecied things for a start. Jesus never came back in 1914 did he?
To think that God is limited to an organisation based in New York with branches in most countries is rediculous. The Body of Christ/Church is of much greater glory than you are portraying. What God is doing is beyond the glory of what man can build. God is a Spirit. We are physical beings. Why do we need to look to physical things?
The true body is invisible and made up of living stones. i.e., those who have the Spirit living in them are the Church. It is Christ who builds his Church. It is Christ who is the head. All denominations fail by their very structure and foundation as being the Body of Christ/The Church of God.
Most Christians fail to understand that the Church is an organisation that is not of this world. It is part of the Kingdom of God and is not structured like things of this world. But denominations, these so-called churches are just worldly organisations that contain some/many Christians. My word to them is to come of her and stop perpetuating the bad witness and division that these denominations bring.
Why is it that men think they need to choose a denomination? Why do they think that the one they choose is right and the others wrong. The answer is pride and laziness and a lack of spiritual understanding.
The Bereans checked all things to see if they were so. Why can't we be like them? They were not a denomination with a creed, were they. The Bereans didn't have a president and a bunch of berean buildings in countries in cities with a head office in Rome or New York. Where is it written that the Bereans were the only true Church and the others who didn't check out all that Paul taught were not?
A natural man cannot understand spiritual matters and this is why men think the Church is a/or many denominations. This is why they shop around for a Church that satisfies their itching ears. This is why they divide by reason of the label they serve.
Are we followers of Paul or Apollos? How is a Christian suppose to act? Are we to follow men? Or are we not all one in the faith, so long as we hold to the true foundation?
I say it again:
A natural man cannot understand spiritual things.
The works that we can see with denominations, creeds, and the false structures and ministries that house them, are not spiritual. They are fruits and works from the carnal nature of man.
Quote They have falsely prophecied things for a start. Jesus never came back in 1914 did he? I think he did. I believe he has been present since 1914, that he hurled Satan the devil down and the “woes” the earth was to see we have been experiencing ever since.
And then, there’s this:
The New York World of August 30, 1914, explains:“The terrific war outbreak in Europe has fulfilled an extraordinary prophecy. For a quarter of a century past, through preachers and through press, the ‘International Bible Students’ [as Jehovah’s Witnesses were then known] . . . have been proclaiming to the world that the Day of Wrath prophesied in the Bible would dawn in 1914.”–The World, a New York newspaper, August 30, 1914.
And indeed, beginning in that year, the earth has seen greater woes than ever before. Yes, there have always been wars. But now the “world” was at war. So it was with everything.
First, the word “presence.”
This is from JW's:
Quote The Greek word from which “presence” is translated is pa·rou·si′a, formed from pa·ra′ (alongside) and ou·si′a (being; derived from ei·mi′, meaning “be”). Hence, pa·rou·si′a means, literally, “being alongside,” that is, a “presence.” It is used 24 times in the Christian Greek Scriptures, frequently with regard to the presence of Christ in connection with his Messianic Kingdom.—Mt 24:3; see NW appendix, pp. 1576, 1577. Many translations vary their renderings of this word. While translating pa·rou·si′a as “presence” in some texts, they more frequently render it as “coming.” This has been the basis for the expression “second coming” or “second advent” (adventus [“advent” or “coming”] being the Latin Vulgate translation of pa·rou·si′a at Mt 24:3) with regard to Christ Jesus. While Jesus’ presence of necessity implies his arrival at the place where he is present, the translation of pa·rou·si′a by “coming” places all the emphasis on the arrival and obscures the subsequent presence that follows the arrival. Though allowing for both “arrival” and “presence” as translations of pa·rou·si′a, lexicographers generally acknowledge that the presence of the person is the principal idea conveyed by the word.
Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there. . . . When used of the return of Christ, at the Rapture of the Church, it signifies, not merely His momentary coming for His saints, but His presence with them from that moment until His revelation and manifestation to the world.” Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1343) shows that pa·rou·si′a is used at times in secular Greek literature to refer to the “visit of a royal or official personage.”
Secular Greek writings are, of course, helpful in determining the sense of this Greek term. However, even more effective is the use given the word in the Bible itself. At Philippians 2:12, for example, Paul speaks of the Philippian Christians as obeying “not during my presence [pa·rou·si′ai] only, but now much more readily during my absence [a·pou·si′ai].” So, too, at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, after referring to those who said that “his letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence [pa·rou·si′a] in person is weak and his speech contemptible,” Paul adds, “Let such a man take this into account, that what we are in our word by letters when absent [a·pon′tes], such we shall also be in action when present [pa·ron′tes].” (Compare also Php 1:24-27.) Thus, the contrast is between presence and absence, not between an arrival (or coming) and departure.
In view of this, J. B. Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible states in its appendix (p. 271): “In this edition the word parousia is uniformly rendered ‘presence’ (‘coming,’ as a representative of this word, being set aside). . . . The sense of ‘presence’ is so plainly [shown] by the contrast with ‘absence’ . . . that the question naturally arises,—Why not always so render it?”
That Jesus’ pa·rou·si′a is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah” are compared to “the presence of the Son of man” (“the days of the Son of man,” in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence” or “days” will see a similar climax. Since “the days of Noah” actually covered a period of years, there is basis for believing that the foretold “presence [or “days”] of the Son of man” would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.
Nature of Christ’s “Parousia.” A pa·rou·si′a, or presence, can, of course, be visible, and in six occurrences of the word the reference is to the visible, human presence of men, such as Stephanas, Fortunatus, Achaicus, Titus, and Paul. (1Co 16:17; 2Co 7:6, 7; 10:10; Php 1:26; 2:12) That a pa·rou·si′a can also be invisible is indicated by Paul’s use of the related verb form (pa′rei·mi) when speaking of being “present in spirit” though absent in body. (1Co 5:3) So, too, Jewish historian Josephus, writing in Greek, refers to God’s pa·rou·si′a at Mount Sinai, his invisible presence being evidenced by the thunders and lightning.—Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v, 2).
The Scripturalness of an invisible presence is also borne out by Jehovah God’s saying to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of the tabernacle: “And I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover.” (Ex 25:22) God’s presence was not in a visible form, since the Scriptures are clear that “no man has seen God at any time”—neither Moses nor the high priest who entered the Most Holy. (Joh 1:18; Ex 33:20) When King Solomon inaugurated the temple at Jerusalem, the cloud of “the glory of Jehovah” filled the house. Solomon spoke of Jehovah as ‘residing in the temple.’ Nevertheless, Solomon himself stated: “But will God truly dwell upon the earth? Look! The heavens, yes, the heaven of the heavens, themselves cannot contain you; how much less, then, this house that I have built!” However, God’s eyes would be opened continually toward that house and prayers that were made there would be heard by him “at the place of [his] dwelling, in the heavens.”—1Ki 8:10-13, 27-30; compare Ac 7:45-50.
These accounts illustrate God’s power to ‘be present’ on earth in a spiritual (hence, invisible) way while He yet remains in heaven. His presence might in some cases be by means of an angelic representative who acted and spoke for God, even saying, “I am the God of your father,” as did the angel in the flaming bush who spoke to Moses. (Ex 3:2-8; compare Ex 23:20; 32:34.) So, too, Jehovah told Moses that he was “coming” to him at Mount Sinai and would “come down” there (Ex 19:9, 11, 18, 20), yet the apostolic writings show that it was actually by
his angels that God was there present and delivered to Moses his covenant.—Ga 3:19; Heb 2:2; see FACE.Since Jehovah’s resurrected Son Jesus Christ was granted ‘all authority in heaven and on the earth,’ and is “the exact representation of [God’s] very being,” it follows that he should also be able to be invisibly present in a similar manner. (Mt 28:18; Heb 1:2, 3) In this regard we may note that, even when on earth, Jesus Christ was able to effect healings of persons from a distance, just as though he were there personally present.—Mt 8:5-13; Joh 4:46-53.
It is also clear that Jehovah God has placed angels subject to his glorified Son’s command. (1Pe 3:22) Texts relating to Jesus’ presence regularly describe him as ‘accompanied’ by angelic hosts or as ‘sending them forth.’ (Mt 13:37-41, 47-49; 16:27; 24:31; Mr 8:38; 2Th 1:7) This does not mean, however, that his foretold presence in Kingdom power and glory consists solely of using angelic messengers or deputies on earthly missions, for this was being done already back in the first century C.E. in connection with the apostles and others. (Ac 5:19; 8:26; 10:3, 7, 22; 12:7-11, 23; 27:23) Jesus’ parables and other texts show that his presence is like that of a master returning to his household and that of a man receiving kingship who returns to take control of his domain, and that Jesus’ presence means a personal inspection and judgment followed by the active expression or execution of that judgment and the giving of reward to those found approved. (Mt 24:43-51; 25:14-45; Lu 19:11-27; compare Mt 19:28, 29.) Since Jesus’ kingship includes the whole earth, his presence is a global one (compare Mt 24:23-27, 30) and Paul’s inspired words at 1 Corinthians 15:24-28, as well as references to Christ’s reign in Revelation (5:8-10; 7:17; 19:11-16; 20:1-6; 21:1-4, 9, 10, 22-27), imply that Christ’s presence is the time for him to direct his full attention to the whole earth and its population, bringing the full force of his kingly power to bear so as to accomplish his Father’s will for the earth and its inhabitants.—Compare Mt 6:9, 10.
Some, on the basis of texts speaking of Jesus’ being seen “coming in clouds with great power and glory” (Mr 13:26; Re 1:7), conclude that his presence must be a visible one. Yet, as shown under the heading CLOUD (Illustrative Usage), the use of clouds in connection with other divine manifestations suggests invisibility rather than visibility. So, too, ‘seeing’ can refer to figurative sight, perception with the mind and heart. (Isa 44:18; Jer 5:21; Eze 12:2, 3; Mt 13:13-16; Eph 1:17, 18) To deny this would be to deny that the opposite of sight, namely, blindness, could be used in a figurative or spiritual, rather than literal, sense. Yet Jesus clearly used both sight and blindness in such a figurative or spiritual sense. (Joh 9:39-41; Re 3:14-18; compare also 2Co 4:4; 2Pe 1:9.) Job, being spoken to by Jehovah “out of the windstorm” (likely accompanied by clouds), afterward said: “In heresay I have heard about you, but now my own eye does see you.” (Job 38:1; 42:5) This, too, must have been by perception of mind and heart rather than the literal eye, in view of the clear Scriptural teaching that “no man has seen God at any time.”—Joh 1:18; 5:37; 6:46; 1Jo 4:12.
Evidence weighing against Jesus’ presence as being a visible one (in the sense of Jesus’ appearing in a bodily form that could be seen by human eyes) is found in Jesus’ own statement that by his death he would sacrifice his flesh in behalf of the life of the world (Joh 6:51) and in the apostle Paul’s declaration that the resurrected Jesus “dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see.” (1Ti 6:14-16) Jesus therefore could tell his disciples that “a little longer and the world will behold me no more.” True, his disciples would behold him, not only because he would appear to them after his resurrection but also because in due time they would be resurrected to join him in the heavens and ‘behold the glory that his Father had given him.’ (Joh 14:19; 17:24) But the world in general would not behold him because after his resurrection to life as a spirit creature (1Pe 3:18), Jesus restricted his appearances to his disciples. His ascension to heaven was also seen only by them, not by the world, and the angels present assured the disciples that Jesus’ return would be in “the same manner” (Gr., tro′pos, not mor·phe′, “form”), hence without public display, discerned only by his faithful followers.—Ac 1:1-11.
A bad condition of heart coupled with wrong expectations regarding Christ’s presence no doubt contributes to the attitude of ridiculers. It was foretold that, in “the last days,” they would scoff, saying: “Where is this promised presence of his? Why, from the day our forefathers fell asleep in death, all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning.”—2Pe 3:2-4; compare 1:16.
Clearly, men will be aware of what is taking place at “the revelation” (Gr., a·po·ka′ly·psis) of Jesus Christ “with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2Th 1:7-9) This, however, still allows for an invisible presence that goes undiscerned by all but the faithful prior to that revelation. We may recall that Jesus, when paralleling his presence with “the days of Noah,” states that in Noah’s time the people “took no note” until watery destruction came upon them, and “so the presence of the Son of man will be.”—Mt 24:37-39.
Events marking his presence. Jesus had promised to be with his followers in their meeting together (Mt 18:20), and he also assured them that he would be ‘with them’ in their discipling work “all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.” (Mt 28:19, 20) The pa·rou·si′a of Matthew 24:3 and related texts, of course, must signify something beyond this. It clearly relates to a special presence, one involving and affecting all earth’s inhabitants and inseparably connected with Jesus’ expression of full authority as King anointed by God.
Among the events marking Jesus’ presence in Kingdom power are: The resurrection of those of his followers who have died, these being joint heirs with him to the heavenly Kingdom (1Co 15:23; Ro 8:17); his gathering together and bringing into union with himself other followers who are living at the time of his presence (Mt 24:31; 2Th 2:1); his ‘bringing to nothing’ the apostate “man of lawlessness,” this being accomplished “by the manifestation [e·pi·pha·nei′ai] of his [Jesus’] presence” (2Th 2:3-8; see MAN OF LAWLESSNESS); the destruction of all those who give no heed to the opportunity for deliverance (Mt 24:37-39); and, of necessity, the introduction of his Thousand Year Reign (Re 20:1-6). See also the article TRANSFIGURATION for information on the way in which observers of that vision of Christ in Kingdom glory were enabled to acquaint others with “the power and presence of our Lord Jesus Christ.”—2Pe 1:16-18.
Conditions accompanying his presence. The book of Revelation presents in symbolic expression much information relating to Christ’s presence and his manifestation and revelation. The symbolic picture of the crowned rider on the white horse depicted in Revelation 6:1, 2 corresponds to that of the rider of Revelation 19:11-16, who is the “King of kings and Lord of lords,” Christ Jesus. Revelation chapter 6 shows that when Christ rides forth as conquering King he does not immediately bring about removal of wickedness from the earth, but rather, his ride is accompanied by war that takes “peace away from the earth,” as well as by food scarcity and deadly plague. (Re 6:3-8) This, in turn, parallels features found in Christ’s prophecy at Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. It therefore appears that Jesus’ prophecy found in the Gospel accounts, which clearl
y involves the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple (occurring in 70 C.E.), also has an application to the time of Christ’s presence, thereby supplying a “sign” that allows for determining when that presence is taking place and when “deliverance is getting near.”—Mt 24:3, 32, 33; Lu 21:28-31–it 2, Presence
I would love to go into detail and actually discuss this, but simply don't have the time. And it deserves the time. I don't expect you to read the above, but only to know that Jesus “presence” was fortold, and not just his coming.
Quote To think that God is limited to an organisation based in New York with branches in most countries is rediculous.
I disagree completely. This is the only way, the ONLY WAY that what Jesus fortold could be fulfilled:MATTHEW 24:14
“And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”In order for all the nations to get THE SAME MESSAGE, the good news of the kingdom there would have to be incredible organization. T8, no disrespect, but your message and what you teach is different than what your partner Nick teaches. And you are just two. Try to preach the same message in all the earth T8. You can't. You can preach one message to the people around you, and people over in another place can preach a different conflicting message. Jehovah is not a God of disorder. His people are united. Sadly, T8, you and the people you think are doing a similar work are not united. I completely understand where you are coming from. Religion is bad. It is, mostly. Religion demands tithes. Some religions do. This is bad. Some religions pass colection plates. Bad. Many religions don't allow their clergy to marry and so they become homosexuals who spend too much time with children. Bad. They kill their fellow believer. (Nick has yet to tell me he definitly would never kill you.) Bad. Dis-unity.
There's no other way for this grand global work to be done T8.
Quote God is a Spirit. We are physical beings. Why do we need to look to physical things?
T8, right now, you're looking at a physical thing. If you don't want to look to physical things, try not eating for a while. We live in the physical world and must face certain realities.Quote The true body is invisible and made up of living stones. i.e., those who have the Spirit living in them are the Church. It is Christ who builds his Church.
Yes, it is Christ who builds his church. Has he decided to build it on sand? Does he not bring his people together? ARe they not united? Or, rather, do they do their own thing? Do they say: “I'll preach my beliefs and you preach your slightly different beliefs and that other person can preach his contradicting beliefs until person number 4 who is also a believer comes to person number 2's country and shoots him in a war? Unity? No. Love? No. I do not see it.Quote The Bereans didn't have a president and a bunch of berean buildings in countries in cities with a head office in Rome or New York.
In the last days, Jesus fortold a global preaching work. The Bereans don't have buildings in countries because they aren't here today doing that work.
So they have no need for printing presses, or organization.T8, I say this back to you:
“A natural man cannot understand spiritual things.”
You do not follow Christ, but follow yourself and we know this because of the extremely small almost non-existant number of people who believes just as you do.david
Hi david,
Is there safety in numbers?
Is there safety in “righteous” behaviours and actions?
Can we save ourselves?Do you believe anything outside of JW teaching on matters of faith or are they your absolute masters?
Quote Hi david,
Is there safety in numbers?
Is there safety in “righteous” behaviours and actions?
Can we save ourselves?Do you believe anything outside of JW teaching on matters of faith or are they your absolute masters?
Nick,
Is there safety in numbers? What does the Bible say? (Heb 10:24,25)
If Satan is a roaring lion seeking to devour someone, would you want to stray from the flock? Be a loner? Those are the ones that get killed, spiritually. Maybe that's why we need the encouragement and strengthening that Heb 10 speaks of.The rest of your questions, you may apply to yourself.
Nick, I believe what the Bible says.
An organization is “an organized body,” according to the Concise Oxford Dictionary. With that in mind, we understand that because the apostles organized first-century Christians into local congregations under the oversight of a governing body in Jerusalem, it is proper to speak of that “association of brothers” as an organization. (1 Peter 2:17) Jehovah’s Witnesses today have a similar organizational structure. The unity of the first-century body was strengthened by “gifts in men,” such as “shepherds and teachers.” Some of these traveled from congregation to congregation, while others were elders in local congregations. (Ephesians 4:8, 11, 12; Acts 20:28) Similar “gifts” strengthen the unity of Jehovah’s Witnesses today.
The apostle Paul showed that Christians in his day likewise acted in an orderly fashion. He compared the anointed Christian fellowship to the human body, which has many parts, each fulfilling its assigned role so that the body can function properly. (1 Corinthians 12:12-26) That is an excellent illustration of an organization. Why were Christians organized? To serve “God’s purposes,” to do Jehovah’s will.david
Hi david,
The body of Christ is enlivened by the Spirit of Christ. Is there any evidence the JW denomination has any connection with this body?Hello Nick.
Would you like this alphabetically? Or perhaps we could go through the Bible from the beginning?Like I have said many times david.
People who promote denominations as exclusively the Church or as a church perpetuate a bad witness that has successfully put millions off God and the gospel.
You believe that the JWs are the Church, but then another believes that the Roman Catholic Church is the one, and still another says that Christadelphians are the way.
But Paul says that such men are that, they are mere men. They act in this way because they have not eyes to see and ears to hear by reason of their nature that guides them.
It is perhaps hard for you to see how ridiculous a situation this is because you have been completely assimilated and cannot see the forest for the trees. But I can tell you that many think that Christians are bonkers and all they see are these denominations that completely lack the power of God. There first concern and question is “which one?”, and they give up right there and then.
Now you say that Nick and I disagree. Well are we not more honest then than those who join an organisation and are told what to believe. You know that this looks good on the outside, but not on the inside. We see this same conformity and unity with Catholics, the Nazis, and the Communist Party. It proves nothing.
Now if I was to disagree with Nick over foundational doctrines or on the foundation, then we would certainly have to sort that out, but as it stands Christians can have unity and differing opinions.
Surely we even see in the NT where Christians had opinions about the Law for example. But they were able to come to agreement. So if it happened back then, then surely it can happen now and it does happen.
Paul even commended the Bereans for questioning him on his doctrine and checking out what he was saying. The Bereans were more honest and noble in that regard, were they not? Paul wasn't looking for the agreement and conformity that is present in the Catholic and JW organisations. He welcomed questions and a deep seeking of the truth.
david, you misinterpret what it is to be like the Bereans. It is not about conforming to creeds, councils, denominations, and other man-made organisations. It is about conforming to the truth and the Spirit leads us into all truth. In that process there are bound to be differences as there clearly were in the first century church. Remember that Christ comes back for a bride without spot and blemish, and he hasn't come back yet. So Christ is working through his body and he is perfecting us. The bride obviously needs more work.
So Christians are allowed to have differences and do. But to be a Christian means that you are on the foundation, not that you agree on 1914 as the return of Christ or that you believe that Mary is the Mother of God.
In other words there are absolutes, variables, and doctrines of demons. Absolutes are essential for a Christian such as repentance and belief that Jesus is the son of God. Variables can be the timing of certain prophecies etc. It is permissable although not profitable to disagree on such matters. But doctrine of demons will only give a foot to the enemy.
To conclude, I would like to point out that JWs haven't been around for 2000 years and the Catholics are a much older organisation than the JWs. But older than all of them is the Body of Christ. That is who and where I stand among.
All that came after that saying they are the Christ or saying they are the exclusive Church are thieves and robbers. Christ came approx 2000 years ago and setup his Church. You do the Maths. Neither the JWs, Catholics, Baptists, Quakers, or Mormons existed in the first century.
So there it is. We as Christians should listen to the shepherd, be led by God's Spirit, and recognise the Body of Christ that we are part of. Allegiance to denominations is not just unnecessary, but can actually be bad for your spiritual health.
Quote Surely we even see in the NT where Christians had opinions about the Law for example. But they were able to come to agreement. So if it happened back then, then surely it can happen now and it does happen. Here's the thing T8. They resolved those issues. That was 2000 years ago. You are still arguing over it with your brother. We look to what they were inspired to write to know what the truth is. If you and Nick disagree on what sort of character God has (whether he vindictively hypocritically tortures his enemies for ever) for example, then how will we know which one is right? Based on what the early Christians wrote. T8, you are not going to write a letter and send it to a congregation and it is not going to be taken as true. What you believe is what YOU believe. And what Nick believes is what NICK believes. Eventually, you will find what Jesus taught and what the early Christians put down. The two of you will not make a comprimize and find a middle. One of you is wrong on this. One is wrong on that, etc.
Quote You believe that the JWs are the Church, but then another believes that the Roman Catholic Church is the one, and still another says that Christadelphians are the way.
Yes, Satan is very good at what he does. If the true faith was a door that you had to enter to find Christ and associate with his brothers, then we could say that Satan's created countless false doors. He's making it virtually impossible for someone to just accidently find that door. Yet, it doesn't matter. Because Jesus fortold that we would come to them, find them, “search out” for them and go to their door. (mat 24:14)Yes, t8, to the world and to the uninformed, it would seem better if all who claim to be Christians were united and didn't kill each other and didn't fight over false doctrines and pagan beliefs and traditions. But Christ never taught that Christianity was to become a universal (“Catholic”) religion. Most would not listen. Most would “take no note,” t8. That is what the scripture says in Matthew 24. Most would take no note.
Jesus also said that the wheat and weeds would grow together until the harvest.Quote We see this same conformity and unity with Catholics, the Nazis, and the Communist Party.
Do you? DO YOU? You must not see very clearly. Put your glasses on for a second and follow me down the path of memory lane. When the Great War broke out, we had Catholics over hear. We had Catholics over there. We had Catholics over hear killing Catholics over there. We had Catholics over there killing Catholics over here. Is that unity? Is that love?
Yes, the Nazi's may have been united. But they didn't form a worldwide united brotherhood that preached the good news of the kingdom. Their unity was in killing. They were killing other people. They were killing JW's. The JW's showed unbelievable unity and love in the concentration camps. dieing for one another.
Do not compare the two. You can take your glasses off now and go back to your delusions.Quote Paul even commended the Bereans for questioning him on his doctrine and checking out what he was saying. . . .Paul wasn't looking for the agreement and conformity that is present in the Catholic and JW organisations.
Paul wasn't looking for people to blindly listen to what he had to say. And neither are JW's. We certainly aren't and it is a lie to say so. But Paul also wasn't looking for people do disagree with him and say he was wrong, because what Paul taught was right. Yes, he wanted people to look into what he said and make sure it stood on the solid ground of truth. But he wouldn't have been happy for the bereans if the bereans decided Paul was wrong and they decided to do their own thing. Or would he have been happy if one berean decided that Jehovah tortures people alive and one was certain that he didn't. He would have straightened the one out.Quote But to be a Christian means that you are on the foundation So those that believe in the trinity? and believe that Jehovah burns people alive and that teach that the soul is immortal and that celebrate pagan holidays and those that don't really read their Bible and those that…
as long as you have the foundation, which is Christ.
Of course, they don't even know who Christ is, whether he is God or God's son, but they have the foundation.
I have a question for you t8. Please answer it as best you can.
ARE THERE ANY FALSE CHRISTIANS? (Mat 7:13,14)
Quote Absolutes are essential for a Christian such as repentance and belief that Jesus is the son of God…..But doctrine of demons will only give a foot to the enemy.
Yes, and that's my point. One of you definitely believes in a doctrine of demons: Namely Nick. He believes that your God, the God of love, whom you love, he believes that this God tortures his enemies, something that he himself condemns and he believes that God does this for all time. This is a Satanic teaching if ever there was one.
This teaching T8, turns people from God. This teaching, turns God into a monster with no justice, who disregards his own words.
I assure you T8, doing such a thing never came up into His heart.
So, we have this doctrine of demons, which has given foot to the enemy, as you say and it is in Nick, your brother.Brothers are to dwell together in unity. They are to be united in truth.
Hi david,
Why would you profess greater love for your tradition than God? You preach your traditional teachings here using the Word of God as a support for them from your own bible version and you never show any evidence of original thinking beyond their false doctrines.So what does that say?
Mk 7
” 5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”
Quote Why would you profess greater love for your tradition than God?
Where have I done this Nick?Quote You preach your traditional teachings here using the Word of God as a support for them from your own bible version and you never show any evidence of original thinking beyond their false doctrines.
And you preach your traditional teachings here using the Word of God as support for them from Bible versions you pick and choose and you never show any evidence of original thinking beyond your false doctrines.Original thinking isn't what God wants from us. He wants us to know his thinking Nick. What you think matters not at all nick. What you come up with that is new or original is completely unimportant. God's mind on matters is all that … matters.
Quote So what does that say? Mk 7
” 5Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?6He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
7Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.”
As I've said and as you know, we don't have traditions. We have changed our beleifs in light of scripture, so your argument is unsound.
dave
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