Denominations

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Quote (t8 @ May 21 2006,12:38)

I prayed with a group of people yesterday at my home. After talking we decided to start from scratch and find out what the principles of true faith are. Jesus said the following: John 10:25 Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, John 10:38 But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” So the miracles he did were also there to testify to the truth. We discussed how many Christians do not see miracles and thought that probably had a lot to with the gospel they preach. Surely if we preach the true gospel and if we teach the true foundation, then miracles will also testify to our message. So we looked at Hebrews 6 1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. to talk about the foundational teachings about Christ. We also concluded that the belief that Jesus was the son of God  and the messiah was absolutely foundational. I don't need to quote scriptures to prove that. The great thing was that most of the people that came have just recently left a denomination and even though they were considered by that denimination to have backslidden, the truth was that their faith had become stronger. They were very enthusiastic about what the scriptures teach and to see if what they have been taugh stacks up. We decided to meet about every 2 weeks and at a different house each time. I encourage others who come here to try and do the same. We even got the chance to pray for a Tongan family who we staying in a house near us, and who had flown over to get and xray/catscan for their son. They found out that he has a brain tumour and has about 4 or so weeks to live. The doctors said that it is too big/far gone to operate on and he suffers paralysis on one side of his body. Please pray for this beautiful little boy. His name is Sionne. He is 6 years old.

Hi t8,

Very encouraging and way to go with your fellowship!

To them that believed gave he power to become the sons of God. May our Father in heaven glorify himself in his Son, Yeshua our Lord, and in us as we pray, trusting him to heal Sionne.

Amen.

[NickHassan]

amen

[Proclaimer]

Thx

[Proclaimer]

Lets have a look at 2 denominations.

Christadelphian + Jehovah Witness.

Now let's look at some simple logic that we can deduce when we consider these 2 denominations.

Here are some possibilities:

1. One of these organisations is right.
2. None of these organisations are right.
3. Both cannot be right.

So in the best case scenario either David or Sammo is representing the correct organisation. Worse case scenario, they are both deceived.

Now lets look further. Let's add another 1000 denominations. I am sure that there must be more than that, but for this simple analysis, lets add 1000 more.

Here is what we can deduce:

1. One of these 1000 is right.
2. Some of the 1000 are correct.
3. All 1000 are correct.
4. None of the 1000 are correct.

Now lets say someone comes here preaching the gospel of their denomination. We can deduce the following:

1. They are preaching the only truth
2. They are preaching part truth & part lie
3. They are preaching lie only
4. They are preaching a part of the truth & together with other denominations we have the complete truth.

Now statistically we can see that the chances that one of these denominations is the correct one is quite a stretch, and that to believe that at the expense of others and to claim exclusivity is either ignorant or that the members of that denomination are very lucky to have chosen that one. It isn't too much of a stretch to believe that they are all wrong or that some are partially correct.

Now for a denomination like the JWs or Catholics to claim exclusivity, they do so at the expense of all other christians or so-called christians. They are saying we are the only true organisation and it doesn't matter what your relationship with God is like, you are outside the correct organisation so that is bad for you.

Now those who come here preaching their organisation only make the hearers think such things. For those who are truly seeking God, these people have put a stumbling block in their path and God makes them accountable for this.

2 Corinthians 6:3
We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited.

Luke 17
He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!

Now if we look around we can see that many who are called christians, are sprinkled among many denominations and they are usually but not always united in their belief that Jesus is the Messiah, but their so-called belief that Jesus is the son of God is somewhat hindered by the creeds that most adhere to.

We also know from scripture that Jesus wanted his people to be one in spirit, purpose, and belief. For such unity would demonstrate to the world that indeed Jesus was from God.

John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

What can I see from all this:

1. Christians go to many denominations
2. Denominations aid in seperating Christians from one another by reason of their seperate leadership structures and doctrines.
3. They make it harder to see the real Body of Christ that is not of this world.
4. Collectively these denominations demonstrate disunity at the expense of the unity that Jesus spoke about. Therefore as a result it is harder for the world to see that Jesus was from God.

In other words they have laid a stumbling block which even block me from believing the truth. Thankfully I was able to climb over that one in time.

So my message to those who come here and to other places preaching their organisation is as follows:

1. Grow up, you are mere babes, and you lack true conviction.
2. Stop laying a stumbling block for others who may enter into the kingdom.
3. Realise that the Body of Christ & the Kingdom of God is bigger than your own understanding and experience.
4. That it is better for you and everyone else that you come out of your division and work toward unity of the Body on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Jesus as the chief cornerstone.
5. That if you are not building on the true foundation mentioned in point 4), you are building in vain and at the expense of Jesus own body.

In short my message to you is to repent, be led by God's Spirit, embrace the brethren, in all that you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ for the unity of his Body, and do all things in the love of God.

1 Corinthians 1:10-20
10 I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought.
11 My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you.
12 What I mean is this: One of you says, “I follow Paul”; another, “I follow Apollos”; another, “I follow Cephas”; still another, “I follow Christ.”
————————————————————–
My words: I am a Christadelphian, I am a Jehovah Witness, I am a Catholic, I am a follower of Joseph Smith…
————————————————————–
13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
14 I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius,
15 so no one can say that you were baptized into my name.
16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.)
17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.

[david]

Quote

Here are some possibilities: 1. One of these organisations is right. 2. None of these organisations are right. 3. Both cannot be right. So in the best case scenario either David or Sammo is representing the correct organisation. Worse case scenario, they are both deceived.

I have said this exact same thing and applied this same logic to you and Nick several times. One of you is wrong on a number of issues. Or both of you are wrong. But you are both not right. It applies to you just as well t8.

Quote

Now lets look further. Let's add another 1000 denominations. I am sure that there must be more than that, but for this simple analysis, lets add 1000 more. Here is what we can deduce: 1. One of these 1000 is right. 2. Some of the 1000 are correct. 3. All 1000 are correct. 4. None of the 1000 are correct.

Again, same logic applies. Only in your case, as individuals, the numbers stretch much further.

Quote

Now statistically we can see that the chances that one of these denominations is the correct one is quite a stretch, and that to believe that at the expense of others and to claim exclusivity is either ignorant or that the members of that denomination are very lucky to have chosen that one. It isn't too much of a stretch to believe that they are all wrong or that some are partially correct.

Jesus and his apostles “claimed exclusivity.” Were they “ignorant,” as you say? Or were they “very lucky,” as you say? Neither, I say.

Again, you saying this applies to yourself even moreso. There are more individuals who have picked and chosen what they want to believe, then their are religions. The same logic applies.

Quote

Now for a denomination like the JWs or Catholics to claim exclusivity, they do so at the expense of all other christians or so-called christians. They are saying we are the only true organisation and it doesn't matter what your relationship with God is like, you are outside the correct organisation so that is bad for you.

t8, I realize it is politically correct to say what you just said, but you are thinking mens thoughts and not those of God. Would Jesus agree with you? What did he say?
t8, right now, in your mind, “you” or more specifically, your beliefs are the correct organization.
T8, what if I have a good relationship with God, but believe he is a trinity, don't know his name, don't care to, don't know the truth about…the Bible.?

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They are saying we are the only true organisation and it doesn't matter what your relationship with God is like, you are outside the correct organisation so that is bad for you.

It's not too “bad for you.” We go to everyone. (mat 24:14) Jesus fortold that the good news would be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, then the end would come. People get to choose. It's not too bad for you, for anyone.

Quote

2 Corinthians 6:3 We put no stumbling block in anyone's path, so that our ministry will not be discredited. Luke 17 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!

Find me this scripture t8:
“Serve God in your own way.”

Or this one:
“Pick and choose which beliefs you like.”

t8, you run this forum. Nick is your administrator. Apparently you picked him because he has similar beliefs as you. Yet, you disagree on what I consider to be fundamental truths that involve the very essense of what sort of God Jehovah is–does he torture people in fire for all time, for example.
One of you is wrong. It seems to me that all your logic seems to apply back to you.

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We also know from scripture that Jesus wanted his people to be one in spirit, purpose, and belief. For such unity would demonstrate to the world that indeed Jesus was from God.

mmm, you know, I could leave this forum and have a friend carry on the conversations and you wouldn't be able to tell. You know why? “one in spirit, purpose, and belief.”
Yet you and Nick…. I don't even have to go any further than the very one whom you appointed as the Adminstrator.

Quote

What can I see from all this: 1. Christians go to many denominations 2. Denominations aid in seperating Christians from one another by reason of their seperate leadership structures and doctrines. 3. They make it harder to see the real Body of Christ that is not of this world. 4. Collectively these denominations demonstrate disunity at the expense of the unity that Jesus spoke about. Therefore as a result it is harder for the world to see that Jesus was from God.

t8, what do you think of Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds?

Quote

In short my message to you is to repent, be led by God's Spirit, embrace the brethren, in all that you do, do in the name of Jesus Christ for the unity of his Body, and do all things in the love of God.

Hey t8, you earlier said that you and a small group were meeting together in homes to discuss the Bible and were trying to determine what the fundamental truths of Christianity were–what makes someone a Christian. In order to embrace the “brethren,” you must first know who they are, right? So have you guys come to a finalized idea of what these most basic beliefs are?

david

[david]

If the true congregation of God were composed of persons scattered throughout all the church systems of Christendom, where would be the unity in thought and action?

[david]

Where would be the unity that governed the early church and that is so emphatically described in the letter to the Ephesians, chapter 4: “One body there is, and one spirit, even as you were called in the one hope to which you were called; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all”? (Verses 4-6) In order that the early Christians might attain this unity, they all left their former religion and were united in the Christian congregation. The Jewish disciples of Jesus left Judaism and its sects, the Greek disciples turned away from the philosophic systems of their day and from idol worship and so did the Roman Christians. Regardless of the extent to which they were connected with those systems, they left them, got out of that Babylonish false religion, and came to the one visible body of the Christian congregation.

[david]

The early Christians had order or organization. There was a governing or leading part, made up of the apostles and other mature men. The local congregations had their overseers and ministerial servants. (1 Tim. 3:1-9) All congregations received their teaching and instruction on the same basis, the inspired Word of God. The congregations were admonished to recognize the local overseers as well as the governing body. One of the mainly responsible brothers, the apostle Paul, wrote them:
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you.” (Heb. 13:17)
By the congregations’ recognizing the brothers in charge of the work, locally and in general, the unity was preserved. This recognition was necessary; even though all these overseers and responsible brothers were imperfect men, subject to making mistakes. These overseers had God’s spirit.

Of course, there was an apostasy and divisions formed and all kinds of false ideas became popular.
There is nothing intrinsically wrong with being organized.
We know that Jehovah is not a God of disorder.
We know that Jesus commisioned a preaching work to be done, on a global scale.
We know that the early Christians were organized. They didn't all just say: “Well, I know there's this group who call themselves “Christians,” but I'm going to worship God in my way.”

T8, I understand your distrust, disliking and even anger at organized religion. For the most part, it is disgusting, horrid, false and will be destroyed.
I also understand peoples desire to not be responsible to anyone but God, or the idea of self reliance.

I'm actually quite curious to know what you guys came up with regarding who are your “brethren.”

david

[david]

“Now I exhort you, brothers, . . . that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.” (1 Cor. 1:10)

There was no place for contradictory movements, as is the case today, where in one and the same church there is a “positive” group and then there is the “liberal” one.

The apostle Paul, a man of the governing body of that early time, wrote in his letter to the Thessalonians:
“But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed.” (2 Thess. 3:14)

Such a person who was unwilling to accept the apostle’s inspired teaching was not safe company in the congregation. He was not allowed to present his own opinions, contrary to what the apostle had written and spoken. No, he was to be ignored, so that such a person would see the unreasonableness of his attitude and through admonition could eventually be helped to obedience. By doing this the congregation maintained unity in their ranks and in their relation to the other congregations.

So if you were around in the first century, the belief that you didn't need to be a part of God's group of true followers would have been false. God does things orderly.
Sure, if someone has the right willing heart and is truly searching for the truth, God will draw that person to him.

david

[david]

I've said this before. I think it fits here. It's something we should remember T8:

Yes, but my point was that it's quite definitely possible to be completely, blindingly, ignorantly wrong and not be associated with a denomination as well.
There are a lot of people that aren't a part of any denomination and are completely wrong.
The very fact that each person not belonging to a denomination has their own unique [beliefs] indicates that the majority of them have to be wrong. They are following men as well–themselves.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ May 29 2006,01:20)

One of you is wrong on a number of issues. Or both of you are wrong. But you are both not right. It applies to you just as well t8.

To david,

Neither myself or Nick is the truth. Jesus is. We as servants can only humble ourselves and realise that we can only know truth as it is revealed. A big part of truth being revealed is being innocent like a child.

We are not and never have said that we are the truth.

I get the feeling david that you know how rediculous a situation it is when all these denominations including yours say they are the way. So like most who do not want to face their predicament, they look at someone else in order to make themsleves look or feel good.

But the answer is simple. Jesus is the way, not us, nor the Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Catholics, Baptists, or Methodists.

We do not follow other so-called ways, rather we have looked to the foundations of true faith and are building from there. We never said we were 100% correct or erfect. On the contrary we realise without God we have nothing.

[NickHassan]

Amen t8
Hi david,
Your repeated attempts at planting division in the body of Christ continues to be ineffective and also are not a good reflection on your denomination.
C'mon david! You know enough about the bible to be able to teach others the real truth, but you must be brave and step out from behind those minders and meet the Master yourself.
Then you will to be able to see the kingdom.

[Proclaimer]

Quote (david @ May 29 2006,01:20)

Again, same logic applies. Only in your case, as individuals, the numbers stretch much further.

To david,

We do not claim exclusivity. We are a few people who God has called to help unite the body and remind Christians of the true foundation. We do not say that all Catholics are unsaved for example, nor do we say we are the only truth. No, we are part of the Body of Christ and it is written:

Revelation 18:4
Then I heard another voice from heaven say:
“Come out of her, my people,
so that you will not share in her sins,
so that you will not receive any of her plagues;

NOTE: 'my people'.

Look at the big picture. God's people have been scattered and have been taken captive by Babylon. Same thing happened with God's people the Jews, on quite a few occasions.

What is it if we call his people to come out of her? Is Christ coming back for a bride that is spotless? Should we be attacked by christians or so-called christians for uniting the body in truth or calling them to adhere to the true roots of their faith?

Is it such a stretch to believe that many christians have been led astray? Well scripture actually teaches this. You do not have to stretch your imagination for this, for it is written:

Acts 20:29-31
29 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.
30 Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.
31 So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Imagine no more. Although a mystery, it was prophecied. There are a number of scriptures that talk about this. If we recognise it and call God's people to come out from among her, then are we setting up a new denomination or are we calling the already existing Body of Christ to repent?

Nobody in right mind would say that the Christadelphians are the way or the JWs are the way, or Catholics are the way. Of course that means that millions are not in right mind.

Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life”. I am not preaching something you need to stretch your imagination in order to believe. I am really just quoting scripture.

[seekingtruth]

Quote (david @ May 28 2006,06:23)

If the true congregation of God were composed of persons scattered throughout all the church systems of Christendom, where would be the unity in thought and action?

From the leading of the Spirit.

I meet fellow believers from many denominations, they readily accept me, as I do them, (we attend different churches for the fellowship, but do not adhere to the denominations).

You are not saved by the amount of truth you possess. I believe when we were first saved (we've had the basic revelation of Jesus) God begins the process of leading us into all truth. Paul stated he had not reached perfection and neither have any of us (but I'm pursuing it).

[kenrch]

Quote (seekingtruth @ May 28 2006,17:01)

Quote (david @ May 28 2006,06:23) If the true congregation of God were composed of persons scattered throughout all the church systems of Christendom, where would be the unity in thought and action? From the leading of the Spirit. I meet fellow believers from many denominations, they readily accept me, as I do them, (we attend different churches for the fellowship, but do not adhere to the denominations). You are not saved by the amount of truth you possess. I believe when we were first saved (we've had the basic revelation of Jesus) God begins the process of leading us into all truth. Paul stated he had not reached perfection and neither have any of us (but I'm pursuing it).

I agree, people we haven't met are our brother's and sisters. Their are different parts to the body and sometimes the elbow doesn't understand the toe etc. Though we disagree we still agree in one that Jesus IS our saviour and our Lord. Even if we get puffed up with pride we are still brothers and sisters as long as we have accepted Christ. I even accept Jehovah's Wittnesses. They believe Jesus died for our sins. We disagree if Jesus was Michale or whoever when He was with the Father before He was begotten. The only problem is the Witnesses don't agree. They say their are the only true church and only they will be in saved just like the whore which is unscriptual.

1Jo 4:2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

Notice it doesn't say as long as they believe in the Trinty, Hell, Jesus was Michael, what is the Holy Spirit, who are the 144K, who are the two witnesses etc and etc.

WHOEVER confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD.

[NickHassan]

Hi kenrch,
And how does one become “of God”?
Belief only?
“Even demons believe”

[kenrch]

WHOEVER confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD.

I'm sure that the scripture is directed at HUMANS not demons.

Demons don't have to believe they Know Jesus is the Son of God, Just as Satin knows.

[kenrch]

Satan does know Jesus is the Son of God, doesn't he?

[NickHassan]

Quote (kenrch @ May 29 2006,03:01)

WHOEVER confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD. I'm sure that the scripture is directed at HUMANS not demons. Demons don't have to believe they Know Jesus is the Son of God, Just as Satin knows.

Hi kenrch,
So is this another way of salvation you are preaching here? Confess and you are in?
Sounds a bit too easy to me
What of repentace and belief and being born again?
Jesus told us we must but are you saying he was wrong?

[kenrch]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ May 29 2006,03:50)

Quote (kenrch @ May 29 2006,03:01) WHOEVER confesses that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh IS OF GOD. I'm sure that the scripture is directed at HUMANS not demons. Demons don't have to believe they Know Jesus is the Son of God, Just as Satin knows. Hi kenrch, So is this another way of salvation you are preaching here? Confess and you are in? Sounds a bit too easy to me What of repentace and belief and being born again? Jesus told us we must but are you saying he was wrong?

No Nick I'm not preaching a “new gospel”. If you give your HEART to Jesus and confess with you mouth that Jesus is LORD, then you will be baptized and receive the Holy Spirit.

NOW when you receive the Holy Spirit He will guide you to ALL truth. Isn't that what the WORD says?

OH Nick, “that is the way it is”. If you believe it or not. Just that simple Nick. If it weren't that simple just think of all the people who can't read how would they be saved. Or do you think you have to be an intellect to be saved?

2Co 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve in his craftiness, your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity and the purity that is toward Christ.

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