- This topic is empty.
- Posts
Quote You have yet to answer the question about the events described in revelation about Satan and his angels and whether there is any evidence that it is historical and not prophetic.
I thought I had answered that. Didn't I say that when it was written it was prophetic, but we are living in the last days, the conclusion of this system of things.
At some point in time Satan and his angels (demons) would be hurled out of heaven, and down to the earth. This would mean great “woe” for the earth, Satan being angry, knowing his time is short. What sorts of things would we see? Nation rising against nation? Great earthquakes, famine, etc? Would those days be critical times hard to deal with? Would we see the sort of men Paul mentioned in 2 timothy 3? Would we see the lack of natural affection, men being lovers of money and lovers of themselves? What sort “woe” would the world experience if Satan and his “angels” were hurled out of heaven, to the earth?Hi david,
I do not disagree he may already be here and causing great mischief,
but did he come
10yrs ago?
!00?
1000?
2000
?As I understand it the word angel can mean messenger, as can the word demon. The difference? who they are messengers of.
Hi Malcolm,
According to my concordance
DAIMON [1142] derives from
DAIO-“to distribute destinies”
suggesting a link to Fortune telling or divination capabilities as shown by the woman following Paul in Acts.Certainly the manner in which demons interact with us and angels do is quite different.
Angels are said to watch over us, and protect us. Whereas demons are sent to torment and trouble us.2 Cor 12:7
Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me–to keep me from exalting myself!It would seem that these tormenting angels are not permitted to do their work on us unless God allows it. Yet they are called Satan's workers. When Jesus cast out devils (demons) from the afflicted I guess their permission had just been revoked. Showing us that though the enemy may have certain dominion on this earth at present he is a defeated being and is only in a limited control because God allows it for the time being.
Hi Malcolm,
Did the messenger from Satan have to be an angel, or, if demons are under the authority of Satan and cause sickness and mental illness could it have been a demon tormentor?
Demons were cast out of people with mental illness, epilepsy, osteoporosis, deafness and self mutilation problems etc in the time of Jesus.Yes Nick that was my point.
Messenger – demon – angel.
What is the difference? who they are messengers for and therefore how they behave towards us.
I don't find angels of the Lord bringing torment – but angels of the Devil – or demons do.Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
*Today their are plenty children of disobedience. Most of the children just as well have no parents at all. Therefore the flesh is allowed to do as it wishes.Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, “against spiritual wickedness in high places”.
Mar 9:20 And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him grievously; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
Mar 9:21 And he asked his father, How long time is it since this hath come unto him? And he said, From a child.
Mar 9:22 And oft-times it hath cast him both into the fire and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do anything, have compassion on us, and help us.
Mar 9:23 And Jesus said unto him, If thou canst! All things are possible to him that believeth.
Mar 9:24 Straightway the father of the child cried out, and said, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
Mar 9:25 And when Jesus saw that a multitude came running together, he rebuked the unclean spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I command thee, come out of him, and enter no more into him.
Mar 9:26 And having cried out, and torn him much, he came out: and the boy became as one dead; insomuch that the more part said, He is dead.
Mar 9:27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and raised him up; and he arose.*Sounds like epileptic seizures. Today medical secience has devloped drugs that puts the demon into submission. Not “healing” the person but puting the demon into submission therefore relieving the person of demonic behavior.
Book of Enoch:
6 1 And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto 2 them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men 3 and beget us children.'….7 1 And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms 2 and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and ” made them acquainted with plants”…
*The problem is some people like the demon they have, so the demon is at home with the person. If the demon is cast out:
Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation.
*Then we have people who are just seeking attention. And after the preaching of demons week after week the person subconscious begins to creat it own demon. Since Pentacost demon possession has hardly happened.
Demon o-pression is another story ” [we fight] …the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:”
Like a tuner in a raidio our brain picks up on all kinds of demonic suggesstions. How do we defend ourseleves by:
2Co 10:5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing “every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ”;
If a person has a demon when cast out by the Name of Jesus the person (everyone I have seen) vomits it's a different discharge with a very BAD stench. If no vomit then I don't believe the person is possessed, however the person can be o-pressed which if that is the case the person can get rid of that demon by prayer and “the Name of Jesus”.
Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 22 2006,02:20) Yes Nick that was my point.
Messenger – demon – angel.
What is the difference? who they are messengers for and therefore how they behave towards us.
I don't find angels of the Lord bringing torment – but angels of the Devil – or demons do.
Hi Malcolm,
But where does it say a demon is an angel, or vice versa?The same logic could get men bringing messages being called angels too.
Hi,
Angels are great, even majestic beings, of a higher order than natural man.
They are not snivelling cowardly demons who are spirits without bodies.
Jesus showed us Satan has a dominion of darkness and demons are servants of that evil prince.
But the angels have their home in heaven while demons belong to the abysses of earth.There are principalities and powers and spiritual wickedness in high places where Michael and Gabriel and others battle against the evil princes, but demons are the lowest of the low. Earthly and earthy they serve Satan and work to bring man down to share that state of sin.
So, Nick is suggesting that Satan has angels and demons at under him. The angels under him of course would be wicked spirit creatures, wicked angels. To differentiate them from the good angels, lets give them a more specific name, oh I don't know, let's say “demons.”
As we've been having this discussion, I kept thinking maybe Nick is imagining the medievil images of demons, those drawings of Satan with horns and a tail and demons as being ghouls.
I however have always seen Satan (an angel who became an opposer or resister to God, a “Satan”) not as some ghoulish monster, but as a powerful angel turned bad. Powerful now, ruler of the world. He does not have a pitch fork.
If Satan was once an angel or in fact still is an angel, but really, an evil angel, then why could not the angels who followed him, who forsook their proper dwelling place also be angels?Hi david,
Then it should be easy for you to find demons in heaven. I await your scriptural evidence for what appears speculative.If the ruler of the demons was in heaven, once an angel, who could mingle with angels….
Satan was in heaven. We know this because Rev says that he would be kicked out of heaven, removed forceably.
He was once an angel. He wasn't created as a Satan or a Devil. He made himself these things, by misusing his free will and letting wrong thoughts develop and acting on them.
Quote Then it should be easy for you to find demons in heaven. I await your scriptural evidence for what appears speculative. My best evidence is this:
REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”Satan has….angels.
If someone makes reference to an angel, he is not referring to Satan's angels.
These “angels” who were hurled down with Satan were rejected by God because of their actions. They are wicked spirit creatures. And they are angels. Wicked angels. Wicked spirit creatures under Satan.You say the demons came from the angels and women, that they are the Nephilim? yes?
I say that the angels materialized human bodies and with women produced violent hybrid offspring–something quite contrary to God's will. This is a major reason for the flood, wiping them out.
I believe we should look at that Nephilim thread again, because if what I believe is correct, then where oh where did the demons come from, if they are not angels?
I'm going to go read that thread.dave
On oct 21, in the nephilim thread, Nick stated:
Quote If Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and angels are God's servants among men, Angels are considered to be GOD'S servants. Yet, Satan has angels. Perhaps that's why we need a distinguishing word, to separate them.
Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 22 2006,02:57) Quote (malcolm ferris @ June 22 2006,02:20) Yes Nick that was my point.
Messenger – demon – angel.
What is the difference? who they are messengers for and therefore how they behave towards us.
I don't find angels of the Lord bringing torment – but angels of the Devil – or demons do.
Hi Malcolm,
But where does it say a demon is an angel, or vice versa?The same logic could get men bringing messages being called angels too.
Speaking of John the baptist:
MATTHEW 11:10
For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.the same word messenger (angelos) is used in reference to John the baptist two more times in the NT
PHILIPPIANS 2:25
Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier, but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants.Once again the word is angelos in the Greek…
GREEK LEXICON — STRONG'S NUMBER 32
32 aggelos {ang'-el-os}from aggello [probably derived from 71, compare 34] (to bring
tidings); TDNT — 1:74,12; n mAV — angel (179)
— messenger (7) [186]
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger
from GodOops sorry the Phillipians reference in my last post is not right, the word there is apostolos or apostle.:p
Quote (david @ June 22 2006,07:33) On oct 21, in the nephilim thread, Nick stated: Quote If Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light, and angels are God's servants among men, Angels are considered to be GOD'S servants. Yet, Satan has angels. Perhaps that's why we need a distinguishing word, to separate them.
hi david,
We do not make up distinguishing words, neither do we assume meanings of words that are not revealed as such.Jesus taught a lot about demons otherwise known as unclean spirits .eg
“When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through waterles places, seeking rest, and does not find it”.He never said or intimated they were angels in any way.
Hi,
The word “demon” and it's derivatives occur about 75 times in the New Testament. That is a lot of teaching. If they were in any way related to angels do you not think somewhere in all those verses it would say so?
When Jesus partook of our estate scripture says he was made for a time lower than the angels. That tells us we are lower than the angels because he was like to us in all ways except sin.
Who then will say we are lower than the demons?Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 23 2006,10:23) Hi,
The word “demon” and it's derivatives occur about 75 times in the New Testament. That is a lot of teaching. If they were in any way related to angels do you not think somewhere in all those verses it would say so?
When Jesus partook of our estate scripture says he was made for a time lower than the angels. That tells us we are lower than the angels because he was like to us in all ways except sin.
Who then will say we are lower than the demons?
Your three words that need to be corrected are “suggest to me” I have never known God to suggest. God knows why must you deny the power of God?Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels going forth to war with the dragon; and the dragon warred and his angels;
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast down, the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world; he was cast down to the earth, and his angels were cast down with him.
2Co 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, “the messenger of Satan” to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
Thayer Definition:
1) a messenger, envoy, one who is sent, an angel, a messenger from God
Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from aggello [probably derived from G71, compare G34]
(to bring tidings)Angel=messenger=angel
Scripture says Satan and his angles were cast down to earth. Paul said he had a messenger =angel of Satan.
One + one =two unless you are trying to change Math to make three.
The spirits at the time of Noah are in prison so they are not prowling the earth (1Pet 3:19-20)
This is what happens when you try to preach against the Word of God using your own judgement and of other men.
Down the same road again, Nick?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
