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Hi david,
Surely you have not finished learning? Surely you are open to new things outside of the JW doctrine?REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”The question is, are you finished learning? Notice that Satan and “his angels” are said to be hurled to the earth.
Hi david,
Is Revelation prophetic?
Once shown in Revelation is it then said to have happened, as the plan of the future is laid out?Quote (david @ June 20 2006,05:08) REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”The question is, are you finished learning? Notice that Satan and “his angels” are said to be hurled to the earth.
Hi DavidThe word angel is used in many different senses in the bible, it can mean messenger – is used as messenger to refer to John the baptist for example Mt 11:10
In 2 Cor 11:14-15 we are told that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light, the word transform here is metaschematzio and means a change of schema or scheme.
This is in contrast to metamorphoo which means a literal change of form. Satan is not able to change his own form, he is not the creator only a perverter of creation.Hi,
They are a fact of life and troublesome to men as shown by the great amount of time Jesus spent dealing with them. Unclean spirits without bodies of their own that want to assume control of the bodies and the lives of their human hosts.Hi,
In Lk 8 the legion of demons in the naked man pleaded with Jesus that they not be sent into the abyss[v 31].
In Mk 5 it reads”out of the country”
Clearly this is an earthly place, or is it?Quote Clearly this is an earthly place, or is it? I'm not sure. But I did find two things that caught my eye:
– Demons have names. (Lk. 8:30)
– People can be afraid of casting out of demons (Luke 8:37). Amazing how things may have not been much different in many areas. Many people are uneasy or timid when talking about this stuff.
Anyway, I pretty much agree with what was posted before.
Quite so Mr Bob,
In Matt 12.24 Beelzebub is named as the ruler of the demons. Is that Satan or another angelic being , or is it the chief Demon?“Demons–What are they?”
This issue has not really been addressed in this thread, as far as I can tell.
My questions are these:
Where did Satan come from?
Where did the demons come from? (What are they?)On Beelzebub,
MATTHEW 12
” 24 At hearing this, the Pharisees said: “This fellow does not expel the demons except by means of Be·el´ze·bub, the ruler of the demons.” 25 Knowing their thoughts, he said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself comes to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 In the same way, if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself; how, then, will his kingdom stand? 27 Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Be·el´ze·bub, by means of whom do YOUR sons expel them?So the pharisees say that Jesus expels the demons by means of beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.
Then Jesus says that “if Satan expels Satan, he has become divided against himself. . . .Moreover, if I expel the demons by means of Beelzebub…..”Or, Mark 3:
22 Also, the scribes that came down from Jerusalem were saying: “He has Be·el´ze·bub, and he expels the demons by means of the ruler of the demons.” 23 So, after calling them to him, he began to say to them with illustrations: “How can Satan expel Satan? 24 Why, if a kingdom becomes divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand; 25 and if a house becomes divided against itself, that house will not be able to stand. 26 Also, if Satan has risen up against himself and become divided, he cannot stand, but is coming to an end.In Mark, we are told they say “He expels the demons by means of beelzebub.” Jesus responds: “How can Satan expel Satan?”
(Also see Luke 11)Jesus was, in effect, saying: ‘If I were, as you say, an agent of Satan, undoing what Satan did, then Satan would be working against his own interests and would soon fall.’
Does it not seem that Beelzebub is a title for Satan?
david?
I believe Satan was formerly Lucifer spoken of in Isaiah 14 (I think) and aslo in Ezekiel (28 I think it is) So at one time he was an angel working for God.
Also it speaks in one of Peter's epistles of the angels who lost their first estate, which I beleive would be referring to Satan and his cohorts.Hi David,
Possibly.
The word only appears in this context and has always been assumed to mean Satan.But it is notably absent from the names given in Revelation-Satan, accuser of the brethren, the serpent, the dragon etc.
It could equally be taken that Satan is the overall leader and Beelzebub one of his underlings.
It is a mocking version of the name of a pagan Deity that belonged to the Philistine town of Ekron and which King Ahaziah consulted in 1 Kings 2 and 6 leading to his punishment by God.
Quote I believe Satan was formerly Lucifer spoken of in Isaiah 14 (I think) and aslo in Ezekiel (28 I think it is) So at one time he was an angel working for God.
And the demons Malcolm?Hi david,
One thing that is plain from the verses about Beelzebub is that Satan has a kingdom and demons are part of that kingdom of darkness and they serve him. But he is not a demon and demons are not angels.Quote One thing that is plain from the verses about Beelzebub is that Satan has a kingdom and demons are part of that kingdom of darkness and they serve him. But he is not a demon and demons are not angels. But it's not plain that demons were not angels. This is not plain at all. As you say, Satan has a kingdom and the demons are part of that kingdom.
“the one called Devil and Satan…..and his angels” were said to be hurled to the earth, restricted from heaven.
So, the demons are part of Satan's kingdom.
I said: “Does it not seem that Beelzebub is a title for Satan?”
Your responce: “Possibly.”
Beelzebub (possibly Satan according to you) is said to be the ruler of the demons.
And, in Revelation, we see that Satan has angels, “his angels.”
It's not plain at all Nick. Not at all. At least, not from the Bible.
david.
Starting on June 20th, in the Hades/hell thread,
Nick stated:
Quote Hi david,
Demons are not angels. But they are under the authority of Satan as Jesus showed when contrasting the two kingdoms. But demons are of earth and live in people. They were cast out by Jesus who spoke quite a lot about them.Angels are of heaven and are designed to be as servants and messengers of God.
My responce:
Quote REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his ANGELS were hurled down with him.”Nick, it appears that demons are just bad angels.
The Christian disciple Jude wrote about them when he mentioned “the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place.” (Jude 6)
These were the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place and really, forsook God. They became known as demons. But these wicked spirits were angels. And can still be called evil angels, as Rev 12:9 above does.
“The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.” (Genesis 6:2)
With the flood, they did not drown. They put aside their fleshly bodies and returned to heaven as spirit persons. But they were not allowed to become part of God’s organization of holy angels again. Instead, the Bible says that “God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Tartarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment.”—2 Peter 2:4.
These wicked angels were not thrown into a literal place called Tartarus. Rather, Tartarus, which is mistranslated “hell” in some Bibles, refers to the abased or fallen condition of these angels. They were cut off from the spiritual light of God’s organization, and they have only everlasting destruction awaiting them. (James 2:19; Jude 6)
Nick said:
Quote Hi david,
Only in Enoch will you find the supposed origin of demons and they are not angels.
They are the spirits of progeny of the sons of God[angels \archangels]and their sexual relationships with women.They were not in the original plan of God any more than Mules are[Horse\donkey progeny]
Me again:
Quote What's Enoch? Is that the book before Hezekiah? Ok, then why does the Bible say that Satan and “his angels” were hurled down to the earth?
Nick again:
Quote Hi david,
The hurling down of Satan from his continued accepted place in heaven, along with 1\3 of the angels is only an endtime events as shown in Revelation. Satan had wandered the earth[Job 1-2], where he had assumed squatters ruling rights, till God was ready to deal with him and to his evil agents.Me again:
Quote Ok, so what about the angels that forsook their proper dwelling place? 2 PETER 2:4
“Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned, but, by throwing them into Taŕtarus, delivered them to pits of dense darkness to be reserved for judgment;”JUDE 6
“And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day.”These angels that sinned, I believe they became known as demons. I believe their children were the Nephilim, but were human, albeit really large violent humans (nephilim means someone who causes others to fall down.) The world became very violent in those days. Then the flood. These angels that sinned, that forsook their proper dwelling place and fathered Nephilim, I believe they became known as demons.
Why oh why does Satan have what are called “angels”? Why? If Satan, the “ruler of the demons” has angels… um. Yah,
What do you make of this?“The sons of the true God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose. . . . The Nephilim proved to be in the earth in those days, and also after that, when the sons of the true God continued to have relations with the daughters of men and they bore sons to them, they were the mighty ones who were of old, the men of fame.” (Genesis 6:2-4)
The Nephilim were the “MEN of fame.” Men. Not spirit creatures.
Anyway, I'm wondering what others think of this subject.
Where did the demons come from? And Satan?
Quote (david @ June 21 2006,05:16) Quote One thing that is plain from the verses about Beelzebub is that Satan has a kingdom and demons are part of that kingdom of darkness and they serve him. But he is not a demon and demons are not angels. But it's not plain that demons were not angels. This is not plain at all. As you say, Satan has a kingdom and the demons are part of that kingdom.
“the one called Devil and Satan…..and his angels” were said to be hurled to the earth, restricted from heaven.
So, the demons are part of Satan's kingdom.
I said: “Does it not seem that Beelzebub is a title for Satan?”
Your responce: “Possibly.”
Beelzebub (possibly Satan according to you) is said to be the ruler of the demons.
And, in Revelation, we see that Satan has angels, “his angels.”
It's not plain at all Nick. Not at all. At least, not from the Bible.
david.
Hi david,
Do you think Satan can only have agents of one type? Angels OR demons?You have yet to answer the question about the events described in revelation about Satan and his angels and whether there is any evidence that it is historical and not prophetic.
And do you agree demons are of earth and angels are of heaven?Quote And do you agree demons are of earth and angels are of heaven? If demons were not angels (as you say)
and if demons are of earth and angels are of heaven (as I think you are saying) then this scripture is wrong:REVELATION 12:9
“So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him.”“his angels were hurled down with him” “to the earth.”
REV 9:12
“Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil [and his angels] has come down to YOU.”If demons are of earth and angels are of heaven and the two are completely separate with no connection, then how is it that these “angels” are spoken of as coming down to the earth, being hurled down to the earth?
Nick, I agree with you that demons are of the earth, (being kicked out of heaven.) But these demons were once known as angels. They are technically still “angels,” (rev 12:9), but dark ones, wicked spirit creatures.
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