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Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth.
Jesus also made clear that even after his resurrection, he was not a spirit!
Luk 24:39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”
So let’s try and do the math here, if God is a Spirit and Jesus wasn't a spirit, then Jesus wasn't God. Here is another brain bender, the bible says no one has ever seen God.
1Jo 4:12 No one has ever seen God;
but Jesus was seen…
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
So if no one has ever seen God, and Jesus was seen, then guess what… Jesus isn't God!Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yeshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer.
“And Yeshua answering said unto them, The sons of this age marry, and are given in marriage, but those who are accounted worthy to attain to that age and to the resurrection from the dead neither marry nor are given in marriage, for they cannot die any more, because they are equal to the angels; and are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection.” (Lu.20:34-36, RSV).
We see that angels of Yahweh cannot die. Once resurrected we will be “equal to the angels” in that we cannot die either. Why is this? It is because we are sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection. But when do we become spirit beings? Is this the same as becoming “sons of Yahweh?”
“But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” (1Cor.15:35, 42-44).
It is at the (first) resurrection that we become a spirit being – that we obtain a spiritual body. Please notice the following things that happen at the (first) resurrection:
1) We are raised in power
2) We are raised in glory
3) We are raised in incorruption
4) We are raised to immortality (1 Cor.15:52)
5) We are raised equal to the angels
6) We are raised to become sons of Yahweh, being sons of the resurrection
7) We are raised with a spiritual body
8) We are raised to immortality so we cannot die any moreLuke says those of the first resurrection cannot die. Synonyms of “cannot die” are “incorruption” and “immortal.” Paul says those of the first resurrection come forth as spiritual bodies and are incorruptible and put on immortality. Accepting the statements of both Luke and Paul, we find that spirit beings cannot die. When did Yeshua become a spirit being? Again, the Scriptures have the answer.
“And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [Yeshua] was made a quickening [life-giving] spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.” (1Co.15:44-46).
This indicates the Messiah was not a spirit being before he was born physically. The physical (body) comes, then the spiritual (body). When was Yeshua declared to be the son of Yahweh? Just as we will be sons of Yahweh by our resurrection from the dead, so Yeshua was declared to be the son of Yahweh “by his resurrection from the dead” (Rom.1:4).
Conclusion? Once mortal man receives immortality (a spiritual body) he cannot die. Is Deity any less? We must conclude, then, that Deity cannot die – in the past, the present, or in the future. Therefore, Yeshua was not Deity nor did he exist as a spiritual being before the world existed – except in the plans of the Father – plans made from the beginning.
“Who verily was foreordained [in the plans] before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,” (1Pe.1:20).
*”That which is born of flesh is flesh, and that which is born of Spirit is spirit” (Jn.3:6). It is one or the other. No person can be both at the same time.
Unisage
Quote It has been stated for so long that John was telling us the word was the Son that we don’t even stop and look at the meaning of the “word.” Logos is not the second person of the Trinity like we have been told since the 4th century, it is Yahweh’s speech or commands, or His voice. This is wishful thinking! John chapter one portrays a very different picture. The Word clearly referred to as Jesus and God, is also described as “He and Him” not “it”.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Joh 1:14 Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. This verse tells us that Jesus is the Word.See what John the Baptist had to say about The Word, from the same chapter.
Joh 1:23 He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.
I will show you from the NWT, the Arian's own bible.
“Listen! Someone is calling out in the wilderness: 'Clear up the way of Jehovah, You people! Make the highway for our God through the desert plain straight,' ” Isaiah 40:3
Again, in the New World Translation (NWT) it says, speaking of John the Baptist's fulfillment of Isaiah 40:3
“This, in fact, is the one spoken of through Isaiah the prophet in the words: Listen Someone is crying out in the wilderness, 'Prepare the way of Jehovah, You people! Make his roads straight.'” (Matt 3:3)
So who did John the Baptist prepare the way for? Obviously it was Jesus. So Jesus who is the Word, is Jehovah , according to the Arian's's own bible.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Unisage
Quote Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Jesus also made clear that even after his resurrection, he was not a spirit!
Angels are spirits. This does not make them gods.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?Christ was God incarnate as a man. So of course He had flesh and blood. Are you denying the incarnation?
So tell me Unisage. Moses and Elijah. Are they now spirits, or do they now have flesh and blood.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:Quote 1Jo 4:12 No one has ever seen God;
but Jesus was seen…Christ was seen while incarnate as a man. Don't twist the meaning of scripture.
Quote Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yeshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer. Christ's humanity died, not His deity. You will have to wait until eternity to ask Him about the state of His deity during this time.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.Welcome Unisage,
Thanks for giving us something to think about. You gave us a lot to think about.
Concerning him/it. Autou can mean he, she, or it.
Concerning Logos, I'm not sure whether or not you're arguing that Jesus is the Logos, but as WJ pointed out, it's clear from Revelation that Jesus is the Logos of God.
Concerning ginomai, it has many different meanings. Trenchard's New Testament Greek says it can mean, “to be born, be produced; be made, be created, be performed, be done, be carried out, be granted, be established; arise, come about, develop, come, arrive, grow; happen, turn out, take place, occur, do, come upon, befall, have, and receive.” So obviously it has a wide variety of meanings, and only those very familiar with the language can understand what it means in any given sentence. I know of no translation that says, “The Word made flesh.”
It doesn't seem that you have any proof that Jesus was created other than Proverbs 8. I think it would have been pointed out in the New Testament if He were created, say, in John 1, or Colossians 1, or in Revelation when He says, “I am the first and the last.”
Verses that the Father is the God of Jesus or was greater than Jesus during Jesus' earthly ministry are consistent with the doctrine of the Trinity, which asserts that Jesus is man as well as God. Jesus came not only as God, but to be made like His brothers in all things, so He could be their priest. And we know that Jesus was in a state less than the Father during His earthly ministry, for at the time He was even lower than the angels. Hebrews 2:9.
I look forward to discussing this more with you.
Tim
Unisage said:
Quote Knowing no Greek word for “was” is in the original manuscripts we get: “The word made flesh” or “The word created flesh.” Unisage, by this logic John 1:3 would read, “All things through Him made and without Him made not one thing that made.” This makes no sense. That's because ginomai includes “to be” in its defintion. It doesn't mean “make.” It means, “to be made.”
Tim
In Jn.1:1-3 we read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is,
“the beginning of God’s creation” (ch. 3, v. 14; see also I Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).
Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying:
“Yahweh created me” (Proverbs ch. 8, v. 22).
Quote (Unisage @ April 28 2007,12:28) WorshippingJesus Well my bible tells me different from yours Mine said Through him and Not By him.So that means the translation is wrong.In which I went and showed you.You must like the KJV. Dont get hooked on it.You need to prove all things and I just showed you on the Word. and Word and Voice and read Rhema and Logos.
John 1-3
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 ***He was in the beginning with God***. 3 All things were made ***through Him**, and without Him nothing was made that was made.My FATHER, WHO have given them to ME, is greater than all. And no one is able to snatch them out of My FATHER'S Hand.” (John 10:29).
for My FATHER is greater than I.” (John 14:28).
This is confirmed by the apostle Paul for he wrote
that: “For He [Jesus] has to reign until He [Jesus] has put all
enemies under His [Jesus's] feet. The last enemy to be brought to nought is death. For HE [God the Father] says `all are put under Him [Jesus]' it is clear that HE [God the Father] WHO put all under Him [Jesus] is excepted. And when all are made subject to Him [Jesus] then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him [God the Father] WHO put all under Him [Jesus] in order that God be all in all.”(1 Cor. 15:25-28). And: “And I wish you to know that the head of every man is Christ, and the head of woman is the man, and the head of Christ is God [The Father]. “(1 Cor. 11:3).
Also even though Jesus is “Elohim” to us the Scriptures
reveal that God the FATHER is God to Jesus! I quote:Jesus said to her, ` Do not hold on to Me, for I have not yet
ascended to My FATHER. But go to My brothers and say to them, `I am ascending to My FATHER and your FATHER, and to My GOD and your GOD (John 20:17)“Blessed be the GOD and FATHER of our Master Jesus Christ…”
(Eph. 1:3).“That the God of our Master Jesus Christ, the FATHER of
esteem” (Eph. 1:17).One God and FATHER of all, WHO is above all, and through all,
and in you all.” (Eph. 4:6).\What have we learned of the True Scriptural
Relationship that exists between the FATHER and Son of the GOD
Family? We have learned that:God possessed Jesus the beginning of His way (Prov. 8:22).
Jesus was the first of GOD'S works of old. (Prov. 8:22).
Jesus was set up ages ago at the first. (Prov. 2:22).
Jesus was brought forth an “Elohim” Being before:
a). the Earth was (Prov. 8:23)
b). the depths existed (Prov. 8:24)
c). the springs were heavy with water (Prov. 8:24)
d). the mountains were sunk (Prov. 8:25)
e). the hills were made (Prov. 8:25)
f). the earth and fields were made (Prov. 8:26)
g). the first dust of the earth appeared (Prov. 8:26)
h). the heavens were prepared (Prov. 8:27)
i). the decree of a vault on the face of the deep. (Prov. 8:27)
j). the clouds above were set (Prov. 8:28)
k). the fountains of the deep made strong (Prov. 8:28)
l). the sea given to its limit (Prov. 8:29)
m). the foundations of the earth decreed (Prov. 8:29)
5. Jesus was the master workman at GOD'S side (Prov. 8:30)
6. Jesus was GOD'S delight day by day in eternity. (Prov. 8:30)
7. Jesus rejoiced before GOD the FATHER always. (Prov. 8:30)
8. JESUS rejoiced in the world's creation. (Prov. 8:31)
9. Jesus's delights are with the sons of men. (Prov. 8:32)
10.Jesus's ways are to be guarded. (Prov. 8:32)
11. Those who listen to Jesus are blessed (Prov. 8:34; Matt. 7:24-
29; 17:5)
12. Those who find Jesus find life – eternal life. (Prov. 8:35;
John 14:6)
13. Those who find Jesus find favour – grace from GOD. (Prov.
8:35; Eph. 2:14)
14. Sinning against Jesus injures yourself. (Prov. 8:36)
15. All who hate Jesus love death – second death. (Prov. 8:36)
16. Humans are first brought forth (born) flesh and blood. (1 Cor.
15:45-50)
17. At the resurrection humans will be brought forth (born) spirit
“Elohim” Beings (John 1:1-3; 2 Cor. 5:1-6; 1 Cor. 15:35-55) into the
God Family.
18. Jesus was first brought forth an “Elohim” Being (Prov. 8:22-25;
John 1:1-3; Philip. 2:5-11; Heb. 1:5-6; Col. 1:15)
19. As of this time there are only two Beings in the God Family
but there are many more to be born into it (Prov. 30:4; John; 1:1-3;
Rom. 8:29)
20. Jesus's is the Word who became flesh (John 1:1-3, 10, 14;
Philip. 2:5-11) to become our Saviour. 21. Jesus is an “Elohim”
Being.
22. Jesus was GOD'S firstborn Son before he ever became a man
(Heb. 1:5-6).
23. Jesus as the Word created all things (John 1:1-3, 10; Col.
1:16).
24. Jesus was the wisdom that created the heavens and the earth.
(Ps. 136:5; Jer. 10:12; 51:15).
25. Jesus is a spokesman for the FATHER.. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
26. Jesus lives because of the FATHER GOD (John 6:57)
27. GOD is greater than all even Jesus. (John 10:29; 14:28)
28. God the FATHER is Jesus's head. (1 Cor. 11:3)
29. God the FATHER is Jesus's God. (John 20:17; Eph. 1:3,
17; Eph. 4:6).RHEMA AND LOGOS MADE ALL THINGS
In the NT “word” is translated from two Greek words. Logos we are familiar with, the second Greek word is rhema.
#4487 rhema [from #4483 rheo, speak, say, utter] AV-word 56, saying 9, thing 3, no thing + 3756 1, not tr 1, total 70. Definition: that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word, any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning, speech, discourse, an utterance.
Logos can mean anything from an utterance to a thought but rhema is primary the noise you make with your voice. Unlike logos, rhema has never been personified, either as the Son or any other member of the Godhead.
Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed (created RSV) by the word (rhema) of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
In John 1:3 it says logos made all things but here in Heb 11:3 we are told rhema did. The simple explanation is that Yahweh spoke words out loud and creation unfolded. Yahweh commanded all things to be and all things were.
UnisageI see you have done your research.
You say…
Quote
Well my bible tells me different from yours Mine said Through him and Not By him.So that means the translation is wrong.In which I went and showed you.You must like the KJV. Dont get hooked on it.You need to prove all things and I just showed you on the Word. and Word and Voice and read Rhema and Logos.John 1-3
John 1
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 ***He was in the beginning with God***. 3 All things were made ***through Him**, and without Him nothing was made that was made.So make up your mind, does your bible say this…
Quote
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 ***He was in the beginning with God***. 3 All things were made ***through Him**, and without Him nothing was made that was made.or this…
Quote
1] In the beginning was “the voice of God,” and “the voice of God” was with God, and “the voice of God” was God;Also the word through is “Dia”, which can be translated “By” or through. So your argument is a straw.
The newer translations brought in the word through, however I dont see any difference except maybe that the unbelievers would imply that Yeshua is not a master builder.
So what is the difference. He was not an empty shell was he?
Jn 1:10
He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.This vrs shows john speaking of the one who took part in the creation of all things and the world not knowing him. So ask yourself, if John was not meaning that Jesus is the creator, then why would he have not mentioned the Father who created all things through him, and the world not knowing the Father?
I will stick with the majority text, thank you.
As far as the rest of your post, there is nothing there that proves Yeshua is not God as John 1:1 and John 20:28 and Acts 20:28 and Heb 1:8 and others prove that he is.
The text you quot just verifys what Trinitarians already believe, that Yeshua is also a man.
But I will mention another one of your straws.
Proverbs.
Wisdom.
Prov 1:20
Wisdom crieth without; *she uttereth her voice* in the streets:Prov 7:4
Say unto wisdom, *Thou art my sister; and call understanding thy kinswoman:Prov 8:1
Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding *put forth her voice?Prov 9:1
Wisdom hath *builded her house, she hath hewn out her seven pillars*:So is Yeshua female. The writer of proverbs uses Female “pronouns” describing wisdom.
Now if you could show me unambiguous proof that Proverbs is Jesus personified then I will stick with him being God which means he is from everlasting.
Just one more point.
Jesus is made unto us wisdom. If he is literally wisdom personified, then he wouldnt have to be made wisdom would he? And wouldnt it take wisdom to make wisdom?
You see the falicys of the Arian and Henotheistic and Unitarian teachings, blow a lot of steam, but they have no power of truth.
Col 2:
2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;
3 *In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.*Notice the Plurality of unity here. Why you cant even tell which one, “all” wisdom is hidden in.
Hope to address some of your other points later.
In the mean time if you can maybe you can catch up on some of our writtings here so we may not have to go over so much agian.
Not that I mind. It is kinda fun!
Heres some of my thoughts on the through thing!
https://heavennet.net/cgi-bin….8;st=20Also maybe you could give us some of your thoughts in the debates thread. Is 1:18, CB,Tim2 has some pretty interesting stuff there.
Blessings!
Quote (Tim2 @ April 28 2007,18:22) Unisage said: Quote Knowing no Greek word for “was” is in the original manuscripts we get: “The word made flesh” or “The word created flesh.” Unisage, by this logic John 1:3 would read, “All things through Him made and without Him made not one thing that made.” This makes no sense. That's because ginomai includes “to be” in its defintion. It doesn't mean “make.” It means, “to be made.”
Tim
TimBy Logic NKJV has it Through him and so does many other bibles.Except for the KJV.Which I believe is Bias.
Jhn 1:1 IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 He was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend[fn1] it.
Jhn 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Jhn 1:7 This man came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world.[fn2]
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.Quote (Unisage @ April 28 2007,18:30) In Jn.1:1-3 we read, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is,
“the beginning of God’s creation” (ch. 3, v. 14; see also I Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).
Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying:
“Yahweh created me” (Proverbs ch. 8, v. 22).
UnisageYou say…
Quote
In the Book of Revelation in the Bible, we find that Jesus is,“the beginning of God’s creation” (ch. 3, v. 14; see also I Corinthians 8:6 and Colossians 1:15).
The Greek word for beginning is “arche” which means;
1) beginning, origin
2) the person or thing that commences, the first person or thing in a series, the leader
3) that by which anything begins to be, the origin, the active cause
By this we see that Yeshua is the “Origen” of all things.
By him “All things consist”. Now since by him 'ALL” things were created, and we know that he wasnt created through himself, then the obvious deduction is Yeshua is from everlasting.
You say…
Quote Anyone who says that the Word of God is a person distinct from God must also admit that the Word was created, for the Word speaks in the Bible saying: “Yahweh created me” (Proverbs ch. 8, v. 22).
Since as you have said that “all things” were created by the Spoken Word, then again the word didnt create itself which means the word is is from everlasting.
All the Living words and wisdom and knowledge of God is contained in Jesus the Word.
Prov 8:22
The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.Yeshua posseses all wisdom for it is all hidden in him.
WorshippingJesus
Since you want to give Greek lessons .Well then I guess it is my turn.
The reason for listing the KJV first is its universal acceptance amongst believers, albeit is not the best version for accuracy.
KING JAMES VERSION JOHN 1:1-5
John 1:1-5 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. KJV
THE APPROPRIATE TRANSLATION JOHN 1:1-5
John 1:1-5 At first the news was spreading {everywhere} and the news was about God being close at hand and God was involved in what was being said. 2 This same {message} started when God was close at hand. 3 Everyone was being drawn through {this message}; however, none of those being drawn was able to come apart from Him {God}. 4 In it {the message} was {felt} a genuine spiritual life and this spiritual life came to men by revelation of the truth. 5 And the revelation of the truth was appearing amid the obscurity and dimness {caused by sin}, and the obscurity and dimness {caused by sin} could not grasp what it meant. (The Appropriate Translation)
Greek to English Translation John 1:1-1:5
JOHN 1:1En archeé eén ho logos At first the news was spoken {everywhere} kaí ho logos eén pros ton Theón and the news was about God being close at hand kaí Theos and God eén was {involved} in ho logos what was being said.
JOHN 1:2
Hoútos eén en archeé This same {message} started. prós tón Theón when God was close at hand.
JOHN 1:3
Pánta di autoú egéneto Everyone was being drawn through {this message} kaí choorís autoú egéneto oudé hén hó gégonen however, none of those being drawn was able to come apart from Him {God}.
JOHN 1:4
En autoó zooeé eén In it {the message} was {felt} a genuine spiritual life kaí hee zooeé eén tó Foós toón anthroópoon and this spiritual life came to men by revelation of the truth.
JOHN 1:5
Kaí tó Foós en teé skotía faínei And the knowledge of the truth shines in the obscurity and dimness of sin kaí hee skotía autó ou katélaben and dimness of sin, did not eagerly lay hold of and seize possession of it.
The Meaning of John 1:1-5
To determine the time frame I began by seeking to understand the meaning of the Greek word translated as beginning (i.e. – In the beginning…). The Greek word for beginning is archeé. This word archeé is akin to the same word cognate from whence comes the word, “archangel.” An archangel is by definition a chief messenger. Archeé also means to commence or commencement. This Greek word archeé has a wide range of definitions and applications and only the CONTEXT determines the correct usage.
Archeé can refer to the beginning of anything and it is unfortunate Bible translators felt limited in their use and application. This happens when theology interferes with one’s translating ability. I hold no animosity toward Bible translators and have the greatest regard for them. We all have doctrinal prejudices and it is hard not to factor individual bias into one’s interpretation of a word meaning.
Unlike Matthew and Luke, the apostle John’s gospel begins at Jesus’ ministry, not at his birth. Therefore archeé should properly apply to the period of time that commenced or began the messianic activity associated with Jesus’ ministry. When John writes the Greek words, En archeé eén ho logos it is better rendered, “At first the news was spoken {everywhere}…”
The reason for this translation is the context; in John 1:1 the antecedent to a text that first mentions the appearing of John the Baptist, “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” (John 1:6) Therefore, instead of translating En archeé as in the beginning a more appropriate rendering would read, “At the first,” or simply, “At first,” is sufficient. At first there was news spreading about the coming Messiah.
Further, the Greek word ho logos, properly rendered as, “the Word,” in the KJV is a woefully inadequate translation because it fails to convey direct relationship to the context; “Word,” is far too generic, lacks expression, and is erroneously capitalized, as the Greek text has no such capitalization.
Logos is a Greek noun that means simply means, “Intelligence or thought expressed by speech (i.e. – spoken).” The range of applications is as diverse as it is with archeé and logos represents HOW people express their thoughts, particularly when there is a reason behind what is being expressed (i.e. – spoken).
To illustrate how archeé is used elsewhere in John’s gospel as referring to Jesus’ ministry the text of John 6:64 holds an important key, “For Jesus knew from the beginning (archeé) who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him.” In this text, “from the beginning,” aptly describes the “beginning” of his ministry as the Christ. Further, in Mark’s gospel we find an IDENTICAL application of archeé with direct association to the beginning of Christ’s gospel (good news herald):
Mark 1:1-5 The beginning (archeé) of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God; 2 As it is written in the prophets, “Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee. 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.’” 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. KJV
The parallels between Mark’s gospel and John 1:6 are glaringly obvious,
John 1:6 “There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.” (NAS)
Mark’s gospel further supports my rendering of logos as meaning, “the news spoken {everywhere},” in that Mark 1:5 says, “And there went out unto him (John the Baptist) ALL the land of Judea, and they of Jerusalem.” If that isn’t news spread everywhere then do tell, what is? I have added in brackets {everywhere} simply because of the implications; anyone familiar with the Jewish sentiment in Palestine during this period of time will attest to the messianic fervor.
In fact so anticipatory was the mood amongst Jews that it was not unusual for families to have an empty seat at certain meals, especially Passover, just in case Messiah should happen to visit them. Young maidens passed rumors of their earnest desire to give birth to the Christ, and all had hopes they might be chosen as the virgin (unmarried young woman) in fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy (Isaiah 7:14). So considering the atmosphere, it is not a stretch to add “everywhere” to explain how the “word” about Messiah was spreading.
Logos is used in John’s gospel quite often for a “saying” because it means the testimony of what someone thinks or has experienced, depending on which form (i.e. – verb or noun) it is used. Below are a few sample verses listed from John’s gospel, since his use of logos is more relevant.
John 2:22 ”…and the message (lógoo) Jesus had spoken.” AMP
John 4:37 For in this the saying (lógos) holds true, one sows and another reaps. AMP
John 4:39 And many of the Samaritans of that city believed on him for the saying (lógon) of the woman, which testified, He told me all that ever I did. KJV
John 4:41 Then many more b
elieved in and adhered to and relied on Him because of His personal message what He Himself said (ton lógon auto). AMPThough Luke’s gospel is written from the perspective of a disciple and not an original apostle, nevertheless he combines archeé and lógos to describe the beginning of the ministry of Christ, starting with mention of the birth of John the Baptist in Luke 1:1-4.
Luke 1:1-4 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, 2 just as they were handed down to us by those who from the beginning (archeé) were eyewitnesses and servants of the word (lógou), 3 it seemed fitting for me as well, having investigated everything carefully from the beginning, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus; 4 so that you may know the exact truth about the things you have been taught. NASU
In the New American Standard Updated (NASU) the footnote about lógou in John 1:3 translates this Greek word literally as, “gospel,” and not as, “word.” This should forever settle and end any dispute as to the meaning of John 1:1; clearly the text means the beginning of the gospel message of Jesus Christ, beginning with the message of repentance first preached by John the Baptist, a forerunner of Messiah. The proof does not end here because John continues his use of archeé just a few verses later, in which he writes of the beginning of Christ’s first miracle at Cana of Galilee.
John 2:11 This beginning (archeén) of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. KJV
With all of this immediate proof why would any reasonable person insist that John 1:1 relates to the Genesis 1:1 account of creation? The only possibility is if they were either a novice student of scripture and unfamiliar with basic biblical hermeneutics, or they have already formed an opinion and/or doctrinal position concerning their interpretation of John 1:1-5.
I am not saying archeé never has implications to the beginning mentioned in Genesis, but not in these aforementioned scripture texts. Jesus adds one more strong argument as proof that archeé in John 1:1 is the beginning of his 3 ½ year ministry when he promises to return as the Parakletos, or Helper in John 15:27 & 16:3-4
John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning (archeés). KJV
John 16:3-4 “These things they will do because they have not known the Father or Me. 4 But these things I have spoken to you, so that when their hour comes, you may remember that I told you of them. These things I did not say to you at the beginning (archeés), because I was with you. NASU
Other NT authors also use archeé to indicate the beginning of ministry, such as when Peter describes the “beginning” (archeé) as the Day of Pentecost when the disciples received the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:15). Paul uses archeé to describe his manner of life as a practicing Jew in Acts 26:4; in fact, this rendering is strong support for my own translation of archeé in John 1:1 as, “At first.”
Acts 26:4 My manner of life from my youth, which was at the first (archeés), among mine own nation at Jerusalem, know all the Jews. KJV
The apostle John was eyewitness to all that Jesus did and said from the beginning and in fact, his style of writing consistently uses archeé to represent the first span of time when he came to personally follow Jesus at the promised Messiah (or Christ). 1 John 1:1 is a prime example because it is a written epistle (letter) from the apostle John TO the churches and in this introduction he speaks of Jesus as the embodiment of the logos, or news that had been widely circulated amongst Jews in Palestine, all of which were anticipating the coming of the Christ.
1 John 1:1-3 That which was from the beginning, (archeés), which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the word (ho lógou) of life; 2 For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us; 3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. KJV
The body of text you just read describes the apostle John’s eyewitness experience with Jesus Christ the man from the FIRST part of his ministry, until the time he was taken up into the heavens, where he is now seated at the right hand of the Father.
John 1:1-5 At first the news was spoken {everywhere} and the news was about God being close at hand and God was involved in what was being said. 2 This same {message spoken} started when God was close at hand. 3 Everyone was being drawn through {this message}; however, none of those being drawn was able to come apart from Him {God}. 4 In it {the message} was {felt} a genuine spiritual life and this spiritual life came to men by revelation of the truth. 5 And the revelation of the truth was appearing amid the obscurity and dimness {caused by sin}, and the obscurity and dimness {caused by sin} could not grasp what it meant. (The Appropriate Translation)
The spiritual life that was experienced amongst Jews that were truly the seed of Abraham, by virtue of the sincere faith during the months, weeks and days preceding the appearance of Jesus as promised Messiah must have been awesome. This is why John 1:1 reads, “At first the news was spoken {everywhere} and the news was about God being close at hand and God was involved what was being said.” God was truly involved in this news, as John 1:1b says.
God was truly, “close at hand,” as rumor of the long-awaited Messiah spread across countryside villages, towns and cities. Everyone was being drawn through this message; however, none of those being drawn was able to come apart from God because God knew those who were truly His own, and those whose pretense of religiosity was simply a façade for their greed, avarice and lust for power.
The message of the Christ was infused with the Presence of Yahweh and the true believers, Jew and Gentile alike, knew what it meant because they felt a genuine spiritual life and this spiritual life came to them by revelation of the truth in scripture, which even proselytes to Judaism could hear read every Sabbath in synagogue.
However, the Pharisees, scribes, lawyers, and Sadducees perceived this message spreading like wildfire to be a threat when it came to the door of their life and stony hearts. And so, in closing, I tell you with great confidence the revelation of the truth was appearing amid the obscurity and dimness caused by the sin of unbelief amongst the religious elite, and the obscurity and dimness caused by sin among these self-righteous gasbags could not grasp what it meant.
Unisage,
I'm glad you've come to this board and are willing to discuss your ideas with us. But you just made an enormous post that is almost entirely, word for word, lifted from this website: http://www.bibleanswerstand.org/retranslated.htm
Are you Craig Bluemel? I'm sure he appreciates you studying his work, but you should give him credit for his work, and not use the word “I” in your post unless you're the one saying it.
And just for the sake of keeping the posts manageable, if you can save space by just inserting a link, you don't need to copy an entire website into one post.
Now let's get back to discussing the Trinity.
Tim
Hi Tim2,
What trinity?
It is not written that our God is a trinity
But it is written that there is ONE God, only one deity for us.Jas 2
“19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.Even demons know and believe that.
Men can be slow.Yes Tim.. Craig is a Good Brother to me.I have written to him many of times.So what is your problem? Im for Craig and Craig is for me.But it appears that you cant seem to refute him.Oh well it just shows he is aganist your teaching.And so am I.
I dont think you want to talk about trinity.They are pagan to me.I have no respect for the trinity.History Prove that alot of People died because of the trinity.I want nothing todo with it or there false teaching.
Tim
About the Trinity.
During the past 2,000 years, various traditions have been layered over basic Christian truths. At the foundation of some of these teachings are bold and imposing forms of anti-Judaism. Modern scholars are reexamining the history of the early Christians and are finding that, along with Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul, the first followers were much more Judaic than was formerly thought. What does this mean for the future of Christianity?Jews, and anyone who believes in the existence of God as presented by the Bible (Tanak) cannot possibly believe that there is more than one god; and believing that God was birthed from between the legs of a human mother and sacrificed himself to himself for another person's sins, dying, is not only absurd, but an insult to the intelligence God gives at least some humans. While such ideas appealed to the pagan Greeks and Romans, and other superstitious peoples who were raised on fables of gods having intercourse with mortal women to produce semi-divine offspring (to cover up the products of adulterous human affairs), Jews would never accept such nonsense. Jews are able to handle only one God at a time.Not 3 in 1 god
Quote (Unisage @ April 29 2007,15:00) During the past 2,000 years, various traditions have been layered over basic Christian truths. At the foundation of some of these teachings are bold and imposing forms of anti-Judaism. Modern scholars are reexamining the history of the early Christians and are finding that, along with Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul, the first followers were much more Judaic than was formerly thought. What does this mean for the future of Christianity?
This section of Unisage's post has been copied straight from this website:http://www.vision.org/visionmedia/article.aspx?id=2558
Quote Jews, and anyone who believes in the existence of God as presented by the Bible (Tanak) cannot possibly believe that there is more than one god; and believing that God was birthed from between the legs of a human mother and sacrificed himself to himself for another person's sins, dying, is not only absurd, but an insult to the intelligence God gives at least some humans. While such ideas appealed to the pagan Greeks and Romans, and other superstitious peoples who were raised on fables of gods having intercourse with mortal women to produce semi-divine offspring (to cover up the products of adulterous human affairs), Jews would never accept such nonsense. Jews are able to handle only one God at a time. And this section comes from here:
http://www.sullivan-county.com/news/paul/ebionites.htm
Unisage, can you please attempt to compose your own posts in this forum? But if you don't think you can manage that, and insist on just cutting and pasting the work of others, can you at least acknowledge your source(s). That's the honest thing to do….
The Matter of the Point is Trinity is not all what is cracked up tobe..Even History has Shown alot of People were killed because they didnt believe in the trinity..Even the KJV is Translated by the trinity people ..You dont think there Bias in doing that? Example In John 1-3 It say By Him where other Translation after the has through him.I would say that makes a Big Difference.If we cant trust the translation then I have to say who can we really trust?.The only way im going to know truth as to stand To what Jesus has said I am the Son of Man and or the Son of God.And that he has a Father.Anything else that people has thrown in to what Jesus has not said Would make a contradiction to there own teaching.One Question..If Jesus was really God..Why would he need to pray to get permission to get anything done?
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 28 2007,17:19) Unisage Quote Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. Jesus also made clear that even after his resurrection, he was not a spirit!
Angels are spirits. This does not make them gods.
Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
Heb 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?Christ was God incarnate as a man. So of course He had flesh and blood. Are you denying the incarnation?
So tell me Unisage. Moses and Elijah. Are they now spirits, or do they now have flesh and blood.
Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:Quote 1Jo 4:12 No one has ever seen God;
but Jesus was seen…Christ was seen while incarnate as a man. Don't twist the meaning of scripture.
Quote Can a spirit being die? More exactly: Can deity (a divine personage) die? If Yeshua the Messiah pre-existed as Deity, or as a Spiritual Being before the world was created, was it possible for him to die (on the tree)? Let the Scriptures answer. Christ's humanity died, not His deity. You will have to wait until eternity to ask Him about the state of His deity during this time.
Phi 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Phi 2:8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
Im not a JW if that what you think Cb.I know that Angels are Spirit and So is God.But Jesus said he was NOT A SPIRIT and that he has Flesh and bones. So that knocks out the Christ incarnate.
You mention Moses and Elijah.And you quoted these Scriptures.
Quote Luk 9:29 And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.
Luk 9:30 And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:Jesus Himself said: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man” (John 3:13) Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!
So where was Moses and Elijah? If they were not in Heaven?Remember God Buried Moses Body.In Deuteronomy 34:6 And the Dead dont know nothing.And Jesus was on this Earth still preaching.
Quote So tell me Unisage. Moses and Elijah. Are they now spirits, or do they now have flesh and blood. And this is what Paul said.. But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body.” (1Cor.15:35, 42-44).
So answer my question where was Moses and Elijah if they were not in Heaven.? Because they cant be there before Christ.As Stated above..
Unisage
Quote So where was Moses and Elijah? If they were not in Heaven?Remember God Buried Moses Body.In Deuteronomy 34:6 And the Dead dont know nothing.And Jesus was on this Earth still preaching. Unisage. If as you state that the dead don't know nothing, then they must know something.
You have got a problem here Uni.
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.Moses died, and it seems from the above verses that he must know something. Get real.
Quote Im not a JW if that what you think Cb. Perhaps you are one of those JW offshoots. They hate being called JWs but they believe Watchtower doctrines.
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 29 2007,13:45) Unisage. If as you state that the dead don't know nothing, …
Huh! CB
It's the scriptures that state that …(Eccl 9:5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(Job 14:21) His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.
(Psa 6:5) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Quote (Cult Buster @ April 30 2007,00:45) Unisage Quote So where was Moses and Elijah? If they were not in Heaven?Remember God Buried Moses Body.In Deuteronomy 34:6 And the Dead dont know nothing.And Jesus was on this Earth still preaching. Unisage. If as you state that the dead don't know nothing, then they must know something.
You have got a problem here Uni.
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.Moses died, and it seems from the above verses that he must know something. Get real.
Quote Im not a JW if that what you think Cb. Perhaps you are one of those JW offshoots. They hate being called JWs but they believe Watchtower doctrines.
I dont have a Problem but you do.They cannot be in Heaven before Christ.I already prove that by Scriptures.Now all you need todo is to figure out how can this be.And yes the dead know nothing.Thats create a another problem for you.Let me ask you this other question.When you die where do you go? If you say heaven.Then what is the point of the ressurection for the Believers? What about the People who are Bad do they go to heaven to? Is there a holding cell?Paul said men are pointed to die than Judgement.He didnt say the Minute you die you are judge.That create another problem for you.
So how can Moses and Elijah be in Heaven if no man can Enter Heaven before Christ?
Jesus Himself said: “No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man” (John 3:13) Here are Jesus' own words that no man, except Himself, had ascended into heaven!
Im am not going to give you my answer.I want you to search.
Oh and by the way.I am not the off shoot of the Jws never was.I dont follow Man Made Doctrines like you do..And like Isa 1:18 dose.Who ISA 1:18 take words from the Trinity that are not his own.And they are not Bibical. Isnt that right Isa 1:18 who accuse me of doing the same? Does Hypocrit come to mind here?I do believe what comes around goes around.
The words incarnate and Dual Nature and the likes that are not Bibical they are someone else teaching and they are not the Word of God ..These words are from the Trinity teaching.
Well Isa 1:18 you point out my Faults I thought I return the Favor..
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