Definition of Church

Participant

Quote

What if the flock you are clinging to teaches falsehoods such as Jesus being Michael the Archangel and the Holy Spirit just being the power of God?

All indications are that Micahel the Archangel is Jesus, as I have demonstrated in the the Jesus/Michael thread. While there are several strong implications that point to the logical conclusion that the two are the same, there is really nothing to refute this except preconceived beliefs.
Nick, I don't remember discussing the holy spirit with you too much. But we don't believe it is 'just the power of God.' Under the heading “God's Active Force; Holy Spirit,” in one of our publications, we find these words:

“Distinguished from “power.” Ru´ach and pneu´ma, therefore, when used with reference to God’s holy spirit, refer to God’s invisible active force by which he accomplishes his divine purpose and will. It is “holy” because it is from Him, not of an earthly source, and is free from all corruption as “the spirit of holiness.” (Ro 1:4) It is not Jehovah’s “power,” for this English word more correctly translates other terms in the original languages (Heb., ko´ach; Gr., dy´na·mis). Ru´ach and pneu´ma are used in close association or even in parallel with these terms signifying “power,” which shows that there is an inherent connection between them and yet a definite distinction. (Mic 3:8; Zec 4:6; Lu 1:17, 35; Ac 10:38) “Power” is basically the ability or capacity to act or do things and it can be latent, dormant, or inactively resident in someone or something. “Force,” on the other hand, more specifically describes energy projected and exerted on persons or things, and may be defined as “an influence that produces or tends to produce motion, or change of motion.” “Power” might be likened to the energy stored in a battery, while “force” could be compared to the electric current flowing from such battery. “Force,” then, more accurately represents the sense of the Hebrew and Greek terms as relating to God’s spirit, and this is borne out by a consideration of the Scriptures.”

So, stating that we believe the holy spirit to be just the power of God is not really true.

Here's the thing Nick. I was quite puzzled when I came across you and t8. Even though you said you weren't part of any religion, you and t8 both believed the same on everything, or so I thought. There are so many individuals out there that simply pick and choose what they wish to believe. So at first, it was interesting that you two seemed to believe the same, yet not be part of any organization.
If there are true followers of Jesus, who are imitating Jesus, doing the work Jesus started while on earth, then they would presumably all believe the same thing–the truth. Unlike the rest of the world, they wouldn't be blinded by Satan. (2 Cor 4:4) It wouldn't matter what land, or what situation they found themselves in, they should all believe the same truth taught in the Scriptures.

But if you (and perhaps your family) are the only one(s) in the world that believes exactly as you do, then what are the chances that you know what you're talking about? What are the chances that you and only you have the truth?

The disciples were a flock. There was more than one sheep and they were united, together.

One sheep is not a flock. A bunch of sheep all over the world who all say they “believe in the lord,” but don't really believe the same things….how are they a flock? In what sense are they together, as a flock?

There may be people who are united in their hatred of organized religion, but not so united in their hatred of Babylonian beliefs as I'm coming to see. There are a lot of reasons to hate the religions of the world. Bloodshed, corruption, moral decay, etc. They have left the world starving spiritually. They are the ones who should have known better. It is right to flee from Babylon and it's corrupt religious ways. When Jesus was on earth, there was one true religion, “one lord, one faith.” Today, there should be one group of followers, a worldwide brotherhood, who are doing his work, following his commands.
It's true that there are a bunch of people who correctly dislike false religion but what does it mean that they don't speak in agreement themselves?

david.

December 4, 2005 at 10:33 pm#42180

Participant

Hi davdi,
Were Paul and Peter united to Christ and to each other sharing the Spirit of God?

Did they always agree or totally understand each other?

If “all indications” suggest Jesus is an angel called Michael why does scripture not say so? Many believe in a trinity God but scripture does not say that either. So such beliefs are equally based on inference and speculation, not revealed truth. Yet you will defend such false doctrines while attacking trinity? Where is the consistency here?

December 4, 2005 at 10:38 pm#42181

Participant

Hi david,
Do you become born again when you become a Witness? If so how and in what way?If not then how can your denomination or it's leaders have any role in the body of Christ at all because that is how to join the body of Christ.

If you can be a member without being reborn then what relevance is that to salvation? How can your leaders tell you what to do or believe if they have no connection to the Master?

Does that not just make the JWs just another, sincere, honest, human effort to find salvation by self effort without going through the gate of Jesus?

December 4, 2005 at 11:25 pm#42182

Participant

Quote

Where is the consistency here?

The difference is with the trinity, there are a hundred clear verses that disprove the trinity for every vague verse that they twist.
With Jesus/Michael, there are admittedly few verses that touch on the subject. But they all point in one direction and there aren't any verses that contradict.

Quote

Did they always agree or totally understand each other?

Of course, humans are imperfect. In the beginning, there was some misunderstandings. But these were quickly sorted out. There were meetings of older men. With the help of the spirit, matters were resolved rather quickly. There was an organizational structure through which things flowed. They did not each believe what they wanted to. The Christian congregation did not continue on in confusion. The disciples did not continue at odds with one another.

Quote

Do you become born again when you become a Witness? If so how and in what way?If not then how can your denomination or it's leaders have any role in the body of Christ at all because that is how to join the body of Christ.

Our “leaders” as YOU call them (we wouldn't, for our leader is one, the Christ) have been born again, and hence do have a role in “the body of Christ,” as you say.

Quote

If you can be a member without being reborn then what relevance is that to salvation? How can your leaders tell you what to do or believe if they have no connection to the Master?

As I've said, those who take the lead among us are born again.

Quote

Does that not just make the JWs just another, sincere, honest, human effort to find salvation by self effort without going through the gate of Jesus?

Your first two statements seem to have lead you down a path that came to this conclusion above which is wrong.

david.
Did you say you had another operation yesterday?

December 4, 2005 at 11:41 pm#42183

Participant

Hi david,
So taking leadership makes one born again of water and the Spirit?

There are no verses that say Michael is not a cherubim either. Perhaps we should make that a doctrine too?

December 5, 2005 at 1:10 am#42184

Participant

Hiya David,

Let me preface this by saying that “God is NOT doing a new thing now. Okay, that is settled. Paul, and Peter were not in agreement, not because of human folly, but because the Holy Spirit was taking Paul to a place were the other apostles had not been lead. Several times in scripture Paul refers to MY GOSPEL, not the gospel. God revealed things about the church to Paul that he did not reveal to Peter and the other apostles. Peter stated that some of Paul's teachings were difficult to understand.
After Paul's Damascus road experience and his meeting with Ananias, Paul did not go to Jerusalem but into the dessert, remember? In Ephesians Paul tells the church, “To me, the very least of all saints, this grace was given, to preach to the gentiles the unfathomable riches of Christ, and to bring to light what is the administration of the mystery which for ages has been hidden in God who created all things; so that the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known through the chruch to the rulers and authorities in heavenly places. This was in accordance with the eternal purpose which He (God) carried out in Christ Jesus our Lord. Now, did Peter know about this? No, Peter was the apostle to the Jewish believers, and righteous gentiles, not pagans. Peter knew about an earthly Kingdom, that is what he preached. James to the just, kept the law, read his epistle. He was the leader of the Jerusalem Church. Paul through the Holy Spirit was made to understand that the law of Moses was being replaced by the Law of Jesus the Christ. That is why there is so much confusion amongst Christians about law keeping. These men did not receive revelation upon revelation. God did not hand them a guide book on the day of pentecost. If you read the New Testament in the order it was written, you can see the changes gradually happening over time, but this took many years. It did not happen over night.

A true believer keeps the whole law. Jesus made changes, ammended and even did away with some of the Mosaic laws. Compare the gospels and deuteronomy.

Also in deuteronomy, The Lord your God will raise up a prophet from among your people, like myself; him you shall heed. I will raise up a prophet I will put My words in his mouth and he will speak to them all that I command him; and if anybody fails to heed the words he speaks in My name, I myself will call him to account. “If you had believed Moses you would have believed me”. Therefore when Jesus said “you have heard” and qoutes the Law, and says, but I say, It is God speaking. How do we know, because that is what God told us in deut.

December 5, 2005 at 1:16 am#42185

Participant

Also David I know you must have posted it somewhere on the board. Could you tell me where to find a post on why you believe Jesus is Michael. I know that JW's believe this, but I don't know why.

Take Care, Bastian.

December 5, 2005 at 3:33 am#42186

kenrch

Participant

Quote (david @ Dec. 05 2005,17:25)

Quote

Where is the consistency here?

Quote

Did they always agree or totally understand each other?

Quote

Our “leaders” as YOU call them (we wouldn't, for our leader is one, the Christ) have been born again, and hence do have a role in “the body of Christ,” as you say.

Quote

If you can be a member without being reborn then what relevance is that to salvation? How can your leaders tell you what to do or believe if they have no connection to the Master?

As I've said, those who take the lead among us are born again.

Quote

Does that not just make the JWs just another, sincere, honest, human effort to find salvation by self effort without going through the gate of Jesus?

Your first two statements seem to have lead you down a path that came to this conclusion above which is wrong.

david.
Did you say you had another operation yesterday?

Hi David,

What makes those who are born again different than the other JWs?

The bible teaches that the Holy Spirit teaches and guides us. How many are born again and have the Holy Spirit to guide them in the JWs?
I thought that God was no respecter of persons. Does God freely give the Holy Spirit to just the 144k? I can understand rank, I believe their is rank in heaven also, but to deny the Holy Spirit to some and not others is to say God is a liar. God is NO respecter of persons and offers His Spirit to everyone even David.
Why don't you give your life to Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit then you can judge us. The BODY of Christ is held together with one Spirit. The arm the eye the feet the whole body has the Spirit of God not just a few (1Cor. chapter 12).

But to each one is given the manifestion of theSpirit for the common good (1Cor.12:7).

I'm sure that I speak not just for we here in this fourm but for all christians when I say come out of her and receive Jesus as your saviour.

The Holy Spirit is one thing that binds the children of God together. Without the Spirit then you are not a child of God

In Love And In His Name, Amen!

December 5, 2005 at 4:00 pm#42187

Participant

Kenrch,

A very good and valid point I might add. David said in an earlier post that he sees a lot of disagreement about our beliefs. I answered him by giving an example of Paul, and Peter and how the Holy Spirit worked in their lives.
God is not doing a new thing today. However, I do see the Holy Spirit at work in believers. Let me explain. As little as five years ago if I had posted on a message board that I was born again, but did not believe in the triune Godhead I would have been pitied by some, prayed for by others, and viciously attacked by most. I have believed for many years that God is calling His people out of Babylon. I have not been part of an organization for a very long time. Not because I wanted to do “my thing” but because I do not want to do theirs. This decision also brings along with it a lot of finger waging, spirit of rebellion, and the great falling away dialogue. It has been my experience that many that have had a soullish experience confuse it with holy spirit, and think they are full of it. The only thing they are full of is their own ego. How can the Holy Spirit teach these people anything? Pride goeth before a fall.

Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
Take care, Bastian

December 6, 2005 at 12:57 am#42188

kenrch

Participant

Quote (Bastian @ Dec. 06 2005,10:00)

Kenrch,

Hello bastian,

I would hate to see anyone miss the boat. God pours out His flesh upon all flesh. God talks to us with His Spirit. When I'm around a person that I never met my spirit moves then I ask that person if he is a christian, with a big smile he says yes. When he does say yes the Holy Spirit pays us a visit! Wherever two or more are gathered in His name He will be in our midst. And I love it! You know that's the thing about the Spirit it doesn't matter where you are if two or more are gathered in His name He will be in our midst.

I think we are being separated from the ones who don't care or want the truth. You'd be surprised of how many organizations out there that don't believe in the Trinty.

The luke warm church of today care more about material things than God! They leave their salvation up to their “Pastor” they trust in Him completely. Even if He makes his wife the associate pastor. That's fine with the congregation as long as He's tickling their ears.

Many will come in Jesus' name and misslead many.

Peace be with you.

December 6, 2005 at 2:18 am#42189

Woutlaw

Participant

kenrch,

All i can say is amen brother

December 6, 2005 at 7:56 am#42190

Participant

Quote

Also David I know you must have posted it somewhere on the board. Could you tell me where to find a post on why you believe Jesus is Michael. I know that JW's believe this, but I don't know why.

Take Care, Bastian.

Hi Bastain. In the General Questions section, the one we're in now, I think under the heading 'Jesus/Michael', beginning in the middle of page one and going into page 2, some reasons are explained for why we believe this. But if you go to page 5, the reasons are outline more clearly.
David.

December 7, 2005 at 3:20 am#42191

Participant

Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2005,06:24)

The 'let's all do our own thing' mentality is a dangerous one. Satan is a roaring lion seeking to devour. (1 Pet 5:8) Like any lion, he looks for the week and for those who stray from the flock. The early Christians were referred to as a flock. (Acts 20:28) A 'flock' is a group of something that is 'together.' A flock of sheep generally stick together, especially when escaping danger. They do so as a flock, stopping at times to reassess the situation. This allows the lambs and weaker animals to keep up. The herd offers them special protection. So too, the flock of Christians were upbuilt, strengthened and encouraged by one another.

Are true Christians today scattered among the denominations and sects of Christendom? Have they no organization? Or are they gathered into one flock, together?

Just before he left the earthly scene, Jesus gave this command to his followers:
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)

How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?

ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju?de?a and Sa?mar?i?a and to the most distant part of the earth.””
ROMANS 10:18
“Nevertheless I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth their utterances.””
ROMANS 11:13
“Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry,”
REVELATION 14:6
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”
MATTHEW 24:14
“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. Love for God and for one’s fellowman would be the motivating force for these ones to unite their efforts to do this work.)

How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?
Remember the mentality of the Ethiopian eunuch.

Half the people on the planet have never used a telephone, much less the internet. Hoping billions will stumble upon this site is not very likely. Some will stumble by it. How many out there agree exactly with Nick? Sure, some will agree on some things. But everything? I’m convinced that only Nick believes everything Nick believes. I’ve seen t8 (the other administrator) and Nick disagree on a thing or two. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. They say they’ve sorted it out. Do they truly agree on everything? And if they do, is that a religion, a very small religion?

How does one fulfill the following Bible requirement if you are not part of a flock?

Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, NOT FORSAKING THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as SOME HAVE THE CUSTOM, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. It mentions here that “some have the custom” of forsaking gathering together. Hmmmm.)

1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)

1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)

david.

Hi david,
As you know I have recently been unwell.
I accept these things come from the evil one and that;

“a curse without cause does not alight” Pr 26.2

Are you suggesting that if we were faithful JWs like you we would have had perfect health?

I doubt you would agree with that. Paul suffered from health problems it seems.

I suspect that ancestral and 30 personal years of catholic idol worship would be quite sufficient justification for my sufferings.

Perhaps it is better to have caught Satan's attention than to be left alone?

December 7, 2005 at 6:31 am#42192

Participant

Quote

Are you suggesting that if we were faithful JWs like you we would have had perfect health?

I don't remember ever suggesting anything like this. I don't know where you got that from. As soon as you said it, I was about to tell you about Paul, but then I read your next line and see you beat me to it.
My point was that “the flock of Christians were upbuilt, strengthened and encouraged by one another,” not that they were immued to sickness.

Being part of a flock doesn't mean a sheep doesn't suffer. It means it isn't eaten by a predator. “Time and unforseen occurance befall us all.” (Ecclesiastes)
One sheep is not a flock. One sheep that does it's own thing and has it's own distinct beliefs isn't a flock.
A flock is a group that is united.
If there is a sheep that wanders away from the flock, it becomes easy prey. In your case, there is no flock. You are the flock.

Quote

Perhaps it is better to have caught Satan's attention than to be left alone?

Nick, I'm not saying I or anyone is free from Satan's attention. The stronger you are, the more righteous or faithful, the more attention that is drawn to you from Satan. But it's harder to get to you. You have a wall of protection in various forms surrounding you. Just as a lion goes after slow or week prey, Satan goes after those that are easy prey.
Satan doesn't care too much about those that don't care about God. He already has them. It's those that truly love God that he wants.

It is because of Satan and the time we are living in that these words are more important than ever:
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, NOT FORSAKING THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as some have the custom, but ENCOURAGING one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
We are living in “critical times hard to deal with” (2 tim 3:1). As that day draws ever nearer, the encouragment and love we recieve from our brothers and sisters becomes more and more important.

December 7, 2005 at 7:49 am#42193

Participant

Hi david,
Gathering together has to be with those who are united with Christ through being reborn into him by water and the Holy Spirit. These are also those who share the jealous love of the truth of the Word of God and do not let others introduce speculations and derived doctrines as equal in veracity to the Word.
False fellowship is worse than no fellowship at all as those who seem alone can at least cling to the head of the Body.
You have admitted that Jesus is Michael is not a clear biblical teaching yet you still publicly grasp this doctrine. Are there some doctrines that you are a little less sure about? How does it rate with the teaching that Jesus is the Son of God as truth? Just as true?

December 7, 2005 at 3:06 pm#42194

Participant

False fellowship is worse than no fellowship at all, as those who seem alone can at least cling to the head of the Body.

Amen Nick

All of the Churches I have attended are headless. They make their pastor the head of the body. I call this pastor worship. I am not talking about respect. This goes way beyond respect. When the Holy Spirit reveals truth to these people, usually the pastor changes their mind.
David,
Should the sheep follow the Shepard that is going to lead them straight into the wolves den? Jesus is my Shepard. I go where He leads. At this point in time, He is not leading me to an established Church in my area or anywhere else.

Bastian

December 7, 2005 at 3:47 pm#42195

Participant

Luke 14

26 If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.

December 7, 2005 at 5:22 pm#42196