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Most of my christian walk I have been taught that we need to be under the covering of a church. That there is protection in this. I also believe that we need one another to function as Christ intended. To operate fully as the body of Christ.
What does a church look like? There are some who say Christ is our covering and we don't need the church. I am interested in other peoples views. God Bless
Welcome,
If you have been reborn into Christ you are part of his body. If you can find likeminded people to fellowship with it is great but fellowship with the dead religious is folly. Paul did not have anyone to fellowship with except when he met them on his journey or stayed awhile in one place. Spreading the gospel was more important for him in his calling.I agree with what you say. That was Paul's calling and there are many others with that calling but did he not visit churches and help them to build on the truth. Didn't he give instructions as to proper protocol in the church? That would say to me that others who did not have the same call belonged to a church. We receive and give to one another and ideally are equipped to go out and reach the lost. Have I misunderstood this?
I am not saying that the answer is the same for each believer. I am not being legalistic because the true authority is God and what He speaks to us. I am concerned that those who speak out against belonging to a church will cause some to stumble. Especially the young in the Lord and those who have been wounded. It makes them vulnerable to error. The church is imperfect because we are imperfect. Is it not better to join together in Christ and make the changes than to stand outside condemning and judging it? That was not directed at you but all of us who are so busy pointing our fingers instead of looking into our own hearts. I have been just as guilty of this as anyone else.
I agree fellowshiping with likeminded people is good and perhaps there is no complete right or wrong answer. We are each responsible for what God speaks to us. This whole issue has caused me great concern because of what has gone on in my church. My heart is for those who have been led out not in peace or love but in rebellion and bitterness. I thank-you for your response I really wanted to hear from people outside of my situation.
Hi,
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God”
Everything else is irrelevant unless one is saved, then fellowship with fellow believers is good. Most so called churches do not teach salvation so they simply become a deception-a group of likeminded unsaved people, with no future and no hope.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 14 2005,21:24) Hi,
“Seek ye first the kingdom of God”
Everything else is irrelevant unless one is saved, then fellowship with fellow believers is good. Most so called churches do not teach salvation so they simply become a deception-a group of likeminded unsaved people, with no future and no hope.
Perhaps, but the alternative is being in the world. There are people with wrong intentions in the church, but take a look at the world beyond the church, is it not full of evil? You made a statement “If you have been reborn into Christ you are part of his body,” I agree… and I think that the body needs to come together in unity.Until the very end, you will always be surrounded by non-believers and sin, which is all the more reason for the believers to stand together. When the body stands strong, there is no evil that can stand against it for it is the body of christ, so when we come together in a church eventually all evil will be purged. Unless you are called to step out from under the covering of the church (like Paul was) how can you step out and still be covered by Christ?
Hi and welcome,
Most of what calls itself the church is of the world. It has no part of Christ.
We know this because you do not need to be reborn into Christ to join them. So whatever they are, perhaps mutually accepting biblical knowledge clubs, they are still irrelevant, or worse, full of complacency and deception.
The Whore of Babylon wears the colours of red and purple-representing man and religion. Blue, representing God[see EX 24] has no part of her. So the body that pretends to be our church is in fact the enemy of God as shown in Rev 17-18. We are advised to come out of her.Hi Nick,
Are you saying that we are to come out from the church? Complacency and deception occur in and out of the church. Do you belong to a church?Theriguy you made very good points. Remember though that Christ is always our covering in or out of the church.
I believe that God has a proper order for both our protection, growth and to equip us to walk where He has called us to walk. I believe that He has called those to “feed His sheep”. They have the role of spiritual parents and are responsible for us teaching us praying for us etc. We all need to be accountable for our actions and to be submitted to proper authority.
Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother, that thou mayst be longlived upon the land which the Lord thy God will give thee.
I believe this applies to our spiritual parents as well.Standing outside pointing our fingers in condemnation is not operating in the principles of God's kingdom. 'Satan is the accuser of the brethren.' Rev12:10 tells us that. Christ paid for our sins all of them we repent and receive His atonement for our sins.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
I for one am so grateful for His love and mercy. Bless you and remember always to measure everything through the word of God and not just head knowledge but ask for revelation.
Hi,
Spiritual parents, such as Paul was, surely help bring up the newly reborn sons of God. But as Christ said in Mt 23.9 speaking not of natural parents
” Do not call anyone on earth your father”
He also said in Jn 10 his sheep would know his voice and
” A stranger they will not know but they will flee from him, because they do not know the voice of strangers”
But those who are yet not reborn cannot see the kingdom so they will not know the shepherds voice. They will follow anyone for the sake of wrongly assumed security.
“I see the role of our leaders to be similar to that of our natural parents. Teaching, nurturing, correcting etc. Just as there is protection for the child(in a healthy family) under the care of their parents it is the same in a church. I don't call my pastors father I'm speaking of Godly order and there is safety in that. Lone sheep are very vulnerable to the wolves. We do not however follow blindly we are each responsible to weigh what is said by the Word. We must have our own intimate relationship with God. Then trust Him to lead us. Never ever make another your god.
Perhaps not everyone is called to a church. It is not for me to say. God is God!! He will use whom He chooses for His plans and purposes. If God calls you out He will equip you. It is the slander that I find disturbing. We are brothers and sisters in Christ, we all fall short. Let's start holding one another up. I for one do not want to harm with my words and attitudes those whom God has placed and anointed for leadership. Think about Saul and David.
Hi,
We need to be careful that while we avoid the Wolf we fall into the jaws of the Lion. We come out of the swamp and fall into a pit. God can use anyone to help you once you are established in the Son but unless that is done then nothing is useful to you.I agree when you say that God can use anyone, but many pastors are called to be in the position they are in and therefore god is using them to help you. In the kingdom of God it is only natural that there be order, you can find order in a church. I believe that my pastors are called to be in their positions, so it is a good idea for me to be under their authority.
Hi T,
Many claim to be appointed to their role but perhaps some are self appointed? Certainly no one can be in any position of authority in the church of God unless he has gone through the door[Jn 3 and 10] and entered the Body in the Way of Jesus. Otherwise they are the blind leading the blind leading others also into the pit. We are called to be followers of Christ and not of men and therein lies a snare.Quote (Nick Hassan @ Oct. 16 2005,18:12) Hi d,
The body of Christ.
Hi,When someone ask “what church do you “belong” too. I reply “The Church Of The Firstborn” they always ask “Where is that church”? My reply: Hebrews 12:23!
For me that's the only church I “belong” too!!!The 'let's all do our own thing' mentality is a dangerous one. Satan is a roaring lion seeking to devour. (1 Pet 5:8) Like any lion, he looks for the week and for those who stray from the flock. The early Christians were referred to as a flock. (Acts 20:28) A 'flock' is a group of something that is 'together.' A flock of sheep generally stick together, especially when escaping danger. They do so as a flock, stopping at times to reassess the situation. This allows the lambs and weaker animals to keep up. The herd offers them special protection. So too, the flock of Christians were upbuilt, strengthened and encouraged by one another.
Are true Christians today scattered among the denominations and sects of Christendom? Have they no organization? Or are they gathered into one flock, together?
Just before he left the earthly scene, Jesus gave this command to his followers:
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju?de?a and Sa?mar?i?a and to the most distant part of the earth.””
ROMANS 10:18
“Nevertheless I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth their utterances.””
ROMANS 11:13
“Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry,”
REVELATION 14:6
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”
MATTHEW 24:14
“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. Love for God and for one’s fellowman would be the motivating force for these ones to unite their efforts to do this work.)How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?
Remember the mentality of the Ethiopian eunuch.Half the people on the planet have never used a telephone, much less the internet. Hoping billions will stumble upon this site is not very likely. Some will stumble by it. How many out there agree exactly with Nick? Sure, some will agree on some things. But everything? I’m convinced that only Nick believes everything Nick believes. I’ve seen t8 (the other administrator) and Nick disagree on a thing or two. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. They say they’ve sorted it out. Do they truly agree on everything? And if they do, is that a religion, a very small religion?
How does one fulfill the following Bible requirement if you are not part of a flock?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, NOT FORSAKING THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as SOME HAVE THE CUSTOM, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. It mentions here that “some have the custom” of forsaking gathering together. Hmmmm.)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)david.
David,
I am one hundred percent certain that God will accomplish what He has set out to do. The good news of the Kingdom will be preached to all the World, don't sweat the small stuff:D
As far as the “let us do our own thing mentality” if doing my own thing is sinning, that's bad, if doing my own thing is following the lamb where ever he goes, well, my man, that's a different kettle of fish.
Quote (david @ Nov. 16 2005,06:24) The 'let's all do our own thing' mentality is a dangerous one. Satan is a roaring lion seeking to devour. (1 Pet 5:8) Like any lion, he looks for the week and for those who stray from the flock. The early Christians were referred to as a flock. (Acts 20:28) A 'flock' is a group of something that is 'together.' A flock of sheep generally stick together, especially when escaping danger. They do so as a flock, stopping at times to reassess the situation. This allows the lambs and weaker animals to keep up. The herd offers them special protection. So too, the flock of Christians were upbuilt, strengthened and encouraged by one another. Are true Christians today scattered among the denominations and sects of Christendom? Have they no organization? Or are they gathered into one flock, together?
Just before he left the earthly scene, Jesus gave this command to his followers:
“Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit, teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.” (Matthew 28:19, 20)How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?
ACTS 1:8
“but YOU will receive power when the holy spirit arrives upon YOU, and YOU will be witnesses of me both in Jerusalem and in all Ju?de?a and Sa?mar?i?a and to the most distant part of the earth.””
ROMANS 10:18
“Nevertheless I ask, They did not fail to hear, did they? Why, in fact, “into all the earth their sound went out, and to the extremities of the inhabited earth their utterances.””
ROMANS 11:13
“Now I speak to YOU who are people of the nations. Forasmuch as I am, in reality, an apostle to the nations, I glorify my ministry,”
REVELATION 14:6
“And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare as glad tidings to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people,”
MATTHEW 24:14
“This good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”
(For all nations to be given the opportunity to hear that good news, the preaching must be carried out in an orderly way, with suitable oversight. Love for God and for one’s fellowman would be the motivating force for these ones to unite their efforts to do this work.)How could such a task be satisfactorily accomplished if there were no direction or organization? How could one obey this Scriptural injunction if he tried to serve God independently?
Remember the mentality of the Ethiopian eunuch.Half the people on the planet have never used a telephone, much less the internet. Hoping billions will stumble upon this site is not very likely. Some will stumble by it. How many out there agree exactly with Nick? Sure, some will agree on some things. But everything? I’m convinced that only Nick believes everything Nick believes. I’ve seen t8 (the other administrator) and Nick disagree on a thing or two. Maybe it was a misunderstanding. They say they’ve sorted it out. Do they truly agree on everything? And if they do, is that a religion, a very small religion?
How does one fulfill the following Bible requirement if you are not part of a flock?
Heb. 10:24, 25: “Let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, NOT FORSAKING THE GATHERING OF OURSELVES TOGETHER, as SOME HAVE THE CUSTOM, but encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near.”
(To carry out this Scriptural command, there must be Christian meetings that we can attend on a consistent basis. Such an arrangement encourages us to express love toward others, not only concern about self. It mentions here that “some have the custom” of forsaking gathering together. Hmmmm.)1 Cor. 1:10: “Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among you, but that you may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought.”
(Such unity would never be achieved if the individuals did not meet together, benefit from the same spiritual feeding program, and respect the agency through which such instruction was provided. See also John 17:20, 21.)1 Pet. 2:17: “Have love for the whole association of brothers.”
(Does that include only those who may meet together for worship in a particular private home? Not at all; it is an international brotherhood, as shown by Galatians 2:8, 9 and 1 Corinthians 16:19.)david.
Hi david,
What if the flock you are clinging to teaches falsehoods such as Jesus being Michael the Archangel and the Holy Spirit just being the power of God?
Do you stay and remonstrate with them and try to reestablish them in Christ's teachings and thus also again in him?
Or do you shake the dust off your boots and keep following the master?
To stay is surely to prefer their teachings to his, their leadership to his?
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