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Quote (Stu @ July 18 2010,22:51) Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Nicole Tesla surmised that “The Ark” was a giant capacitor.
You say there is no (according to Stuart) God; so how can you say that?Quote (theodorej @ July 18 2010,18:23) Greetings Simply Forgiven…..With reference to you debate with Stu…You touched on a point that speaks to the credability of the science of Physcology….It is my feeling that this science,with respect to an individual who professes to know the mind of man is bogus…Simply ask any shrink if he has ever cured anyone….”For who could know the heart of the man”…..I can intervue with one of these so called professionals and be any body I want to be and probably walk out of his office with a prescription for some mind altering drug..
Theodore!
what are you talking about man,thats why we used qoutes here, so i can understand to what you refer to.
Anyways what does that have to do with anything. thats not the point. my point is that yes, i am in the field of psychology, and yes your right, a man cannot cure anothers mans midn problems, that for JESUS to do.
the heart is deceitfully wicked, who can know it?
ok agreed. i get that.
my point was simply this,
how many crazy people actually open up and talk abuot what they hold secret to a shrink.
the things they hear are crazy, nonsense, and maybe pointless.
the people i have spoken to have anger problems and broken heart and even desires to kill and to imagine horrible things.my point is that no matter how people act good in the out side, the secrets in their mind is scary.
if we could really hear peoples thoughts, we would be scared.i have heard of a person once that just simply felt like running someone over, and cant understand why people would walk in the streets, and that they should be runned over?
does that soound good to you?Stuart[/quote]
Quote I am stating what I think christians believe. If you do not believe these same things then you are perfectly at liberty to tell me how your belief system differs from other christians.
Your assuming that every christian has the same belief, which surprises me because have you not read the believers section? do you realy expect me to believe that you think alll christians think exactly alike? thats bogus.
Where do i start?Quote Do you have no understanding of the political history of homosexuality and the profound effect that Judeo-christian belief has had on that? Have you no clue about the suicide rates amongst gay teens? Do I need to point out to you your part in supporting an apparatus that has made life miserable for homosexuals for countless generations in countless places around the globe?
so just because im a Republican (WHICH IM NOT) or a democrat(also not) that would make me responsible for lets say the civil war, and all the things that happen afterwards?
are you serious?
As a Christian, im not responsible for that. and i cannot be held responsible for that, because I Dennison did not do such things. I have met many Homosexuals and as long as they respect me and know that i dont swing that way, im cool with them and we disagree in A NUMBER of aspects, but we respect eachother, they have the right not to believe, and i respect that.
Even thuogh, homo-lesbian do make things hard for Christians too.Quote Yes but that is trivial, isn’t it. What you should really be doing is saying that christianity loves not just the people but it appreciates that is has been those of the Abrahamic religions that have used their book of mythology to cause misery to gay people. Have you torn Paul’s homophobic rant in Romans out of your bible? How about Leviticus and Deuteronomy? Do they still have pride of place in there? You read a book that commands their death, and calls them worthy of death. Do you see the problem now?
The bible states that Homosexuals well end up in Hell,
Yes Paul did rant,
But Paul at any moment would help those in need.
than again im not paul.
and I believe what the bible says,
but what does that have to do with the way i treat people now when they are living?
Thats not trivial.
All sin is the same, there i no sin that is greater than another.Quote Define good. Define nasty. What a bitter view you have of humanity. Are you American? Do you not believe that you live in a guns and religion-crazed paranoid society? I am sure many are not like that, but you appear to be viewing it through those eyes.
Actually i am American, yet im not really that American. I am from Honduras Also by the way, and i have studied diffrent kinds of people from differnt places. I have studied the religions of the world. i have studied alot about history as well,
Truth is that alot of people do not think about the good things about life,
I find americans to be welll…in a deeper mess than the rest of the world, but doesnt mean that the human soceity is automatically good.
you cant prove that every single person is good, becuuse you dont know the stuff they think about.
i already defined good,
nasty- disgusting.Quote I am not. Speak for yourself. Cool? have you ever thought about killing somone while angry? have you ever thought about doing something dangerous? have you ever wanted to hurt someone? did you ever want to beat someone up? did you ever wish harm on someone else? did you ever want to burn your house down? did you ever want to blow up your job? did you ever want to run someone over only if you could!?
ever have thoughts like that? if wish you could go back in time and beat someone up? ever wish to erase someone out of your life? ever thought about cheating? hurting? teasing?
lieing? if your married have you never thought about another woman?(forgive me if im being too personal)
Quote Having a relationship with something that isn’t really there is not my goal.
says youQuote In my experience that sentiment is often followed by “dusting off ones shoes” when the person appears not to be taking the bait.
The person has the right not to believe.
and i would gladly defend that.
God doesnt want someone forced nor CONVINCED. he wants to be WANTED. the same with your wife. she doesnt want your love to be forced or demanded, she wants yoru love because you simply want to love her.Quote No, the appearance of humans depends on your definition of species. You really cannot say that up to point x in time a species was one thing, then suddenly it was another because for that situation it is always an arbitrary classification, and you cannot say that these two are of a new species because you would have to have two new individuals capable of reproducing together but not reproducing with any other individuals. And their line would die out in short order because of the ultimate in in-breeding.
ok so your just Stu, and im Dennison we are differnt species, we could have something that is different from you, who knows?Quote What exactly isn’t observable?
Evolution is not observable, not what you claim is evolution today, but the exact moment, or the bringing of human species is not observable.Quote The evolution of gender is a very interesting question, and it is not an easy one to answer but you cannot assume it has always been like it is today. Even today we have many asexually reproducing species, and species that reproduce sexually from hermaphroditic individuals that have the parts of both sexes (most sexually reproducing plants, and snails for example). There are species of plant that have some sexual reproduction in their evolutionary history, and have lost it later to become asexual reproducers.
We are not talking about plants nor asexuals species. we are talkign about the human species. IF my memory serves me correctl
y, we spoke abuot this before, if one day an apple doesnt fall but rises up than that disproves the gravational theory. So if i have always observed genders than i can say there has always been two, and there is nothing else to suggest that they werent two.
even though i agree that at one point of time there was ONE.
than two.Quote Well I was waiting for you to give an example of a justified killing, and in my opinion you still haven’t.
so you believe killing is wrong no matter what?Quote Did the Jews nail him up?
no the romand did, the Jew were responsible for it, the Roman judge however wash his hands clean of the “justice” and let the jews decide.Quote No, it is a miscarriage of justice if the wrong person is convicted, no matter what choosing has gone on.
No because the transgression is being dealt with.Quote Both the punishment and the substitution are unethical.
why?Quote Can I assume then that you reject the bible?
No, Unless you already judged yourself.Quote The millions of deaths that the Judeo-christian book of mythology attributes to its god are actually deaths from wars, famines and plagues, common events for ancient people and for not-so ancient ones too. I was just going along with the mythology for the purpose of discussion. Do you not believe in that part of the bible either?
I do believe it, my Point is that there is a reason why they died. and for that reason is justified.
BUt that shouldnt even matter to you, because supposly you dont believe in God, so those deaths are not “real” to you.
So in your terms, this really wouldnt pertain to you.Quote Yes. And I know the real reason they died. No religion has claimed it as an act of their deity as far as I am aware, although I would well believe that some christians might have thought that way at the time.
There is a reason why they died, was it ethical, was that Justice? did they deserve it? were these innocent people?Quote So when I sit down to listen to a Beethoven Piano Concerto for the sheer selfish pleasure it brings, I am being evil.
Oh wow thats old, i cant even find anything like that anymore.
Are you an old man? its not selfish at all, its pleasent and pleasure. thats not evil at all, its evil when Christians force people like you to believe, by whatever means nessary.<(This is what i mean by good intentions.)Quote So it is wrong to recommend a book that condemns homosexuality because that contributes to the damage of homosexuals (as exemplified by their execution, imprisonment, and misery that has derived from christians quoting scripture). Quote against God= any rebellion agaisnt Gods will, any seperate will from Gods is against him.
Define god’s will! That is what the NT doesn’t do in regard to what is sin.
No, because those people were ignornat, and didnt know God. just beacuse a person qoutes scriptures doesnt mean they are holy. any fool can qoute scripture, even the devil in scriptures qoutes scripture. Jesus wouldnt do that to people.Quote Define god’s will! That is what the NT doesn’t do in regard to what is sin.
Im not God, please ASk him. I can tell you what MY WILL is, but how can i tell you what his exact will is, if im not him?
I can tell you one thing though,
He loves you, thats all i know.Quote I hope to make choices based on love and truth, as I am sure you do too. That is the principle that has reinforced my objections to christianity, which clearly is not based on these principles.
We have more in common than you think.
You cant hold that as fact, because your takings peoples actions that are reactions to scripture that are misinterpreted. You have people acting like people basically with a religious symbol to blame it on.
Love and truth brother is all i want as well, and we have a goal in common. are we so different?Quote So this is the god that is “most” everything. Most just, most pure, most loving, most smelly, most irascible, most petulant, most violent: indeed it is the role model for all those seeking expressions of the most perfectly violent being.
Perfection are defined by attributes that are everlasting. such as love,
try loving someone, everytime you love someone it doesnt get used up where you love less.
Love is not like strengh. when you use your energy you lose energy, and you would need to consume food to keep it up.love isnt like that, the more you use it, the more it grows and mulitplies in other people.
therefore Love is only cut off when you chose not to love, isolate yourself from people.
There is no end to love, unless you choose to stop loving.
the more you love, the more its grows.last part is the defintions you asked for that are common and wanted to get it over with so here are some i agree with:
Rebellion-noun
1. open, organized, and armed resistance to one's government or ruler.
2. resistance to or defiance of any authority, control, or tradition.-
Obediance-noun
1. the state or quality of being obedient.
2. the act or practice of obeying; dutiful or submissive compliance: Military service demands obedience from its members.
Good-adjective
1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health.
3. of high qu
ality; excellent.
4. right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
Nasty-–adjective
1. physically filthy; disgustingly unclean: a nasty pigsty of a room.
2. offensive to taste or smell; nauseating.
3. offensive; objectionable: a nasty habit.
Evil-adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.Quote (bodhitharta @ July 19 2010,04:39) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2010,22:51) Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.
Stuart
What no one wants to say to you but I will STU is that God can do whatever he wants and cannot be in the wrong because right or wrong is based upon the determination Law Giver only those receiving the law is subject to the law.Traffic cops double park, speed, cross lines improperly…they get no ticket.
Court judges get rude and yell in court whenever they want and they never get charged for contempt
A state can murder a Man who commits murder without being charged for murder
In Las Vegas it is Illegal to Gamble unless you do so where they tell you to and prostitution is the same. That's right you can legally lose all your money in a casino and then drive to right outside the town and have illicit sex at a brothel and it would be completely legal per the laws of Nevada
A man can drink Alcohol and fight with his wife in his own home but forbid anyone else drinking or fighting in his home.
With this approach to ethics, how would you be any different to a German concentration camp guard?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,14:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 19 2010,04:39) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2010,22:51) Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.
Stuart
What no one wants to say to you but I will STU is that God can do whatever he wants and cannot be in the wrong because right or wrong is based upon the determination Law Giver only those receiving the law is subject to the law.Traffic cops double park, speed, cross lines improperly…they get no ticket.
Court judges get rude and yell in court whenever they want and they never get charged for contempt
A state can murder a Man who commits murder without being charged for murder
In Las Vegas it is Illegal to Gamble unless you do so where they tell you to and prostitution is the same. That's right you can legally lose all your money in a casino and then drive to right outside the town and have illicit sex at a brothel and it would be completely legal per the laws of Nevada
A man can drink Alcohol and fight with his wife in his own home but forbid anyone else drinking or fighting in his home.
With this approach to ethics, how would you be any different to a German concentration camp guard?Stuart
YA bod,
This wasnt one of your best moments….
Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,10:47) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2010,22:51) Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.
Stuart
Hi Stuart,Nicole Tesla surmised that “The Ark” was a giant capacitor.
You say there is no (according to Stuart) God; so how can you say that?
Cleraly Tesla did not read the verses that describe this as a believer. Either it was some accident, perhaps electrical or mechanical, or it was an act of “justice” by the Judeo-christian god. Tesla's concept surely is not biblical!Stuart
Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,10:32) Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 18 2010,21:23) Bod: If righteousness is by faith and believing God 'has made' us righteous…
God bless you, TK
Hi Tim,Believing God “IS MAKING” us righteous.
A work in progress, present tense; NOT PAST TENSE TIM!Righteousness means: doing right!
How 'you think' is irrelevant!
Ed J: We have been made the righteous of God in Christ!By faith, not by works. Rom.10:10—Rom10:3—Rom9:30
1Cor.1:30—11Cor.5:21 and many more.
One who works for righteousness is judged by his works and cannot walk in Christ.
All works of God are eternal. I am righteous, I am being made righteous and I will be righteous. By accepting Gods work done for us, not of ourselves, lest one might boast!
For me righteousness means perfections and right standing with God!
How you think is totally what you are. God is in your mind whether you accept that he is or you don't. There can be a poisonous snake by your leg but without conscious
awareness you may walk away and never even know it was there. Who you are has been created by you. What you have chosen over your life to accept as truth and believe is who
you are and how you see the world. Each path is different for every person.
You can exist without awareness but you would have no identity. Prov.23:7–…as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is…!
How you think is totally relevant, it is you!
Bless you, TK
SimplyForgiven
Quote Your assuming that every christian has the same belief, which surprises me because have you not read the believers section? do you realy expect me to believe that you think alll christians think exactly alike? thats bogus.
Aren't there some basics in common?Quote Where do i start?
Do you believe that I should accept that Jesus was executed by the Romans in order that I can be in some way cleansed of my wrongdoing?Do you believe that the bible is the inspired writing of your god?
These are both things you appear to have been reluctant to accept I can claim you believe. The first is something I find obscene because it is fundamentally immoral, and the second relates to my comment about whether you would agree with Saul of Tarsus that homosexuality is deserving of death or with one of the writers of the Jewish bible that homosexuals should be put to death. Are these inspired by your god or not?
Quote so just because im a Republican (WHICH IM NOT) or a democrat(also not) that would make me responsible for lets say the civil war, and all the things that happen afterwards?
are you serious?
Now you're claiming I said things I didn't! Here's what I did write:Do you have no understanding of the political history of homosexuality and the profound effect that Judeo-christian belief has had on that? Have you no clue about the suicide rates amongst gay teens? Do I need to point out to you your part in supporting an apparatus that has made life miserable for homosexuals for countless generations in countless places around the globe?
Politics includes the pope, the UN, religious pushers and secularists. It is not all about party politics. Saul of Tarsus and Peter Simon were doing politics, and the gospel descriptions of Jesus tell a story of a preacher who was also a politician in many ways too.
Quote As a Christian, im not responsible for that. and i cannot be held responsible for that, because I Dennison did not do such things. I have met many Homosexuals and as long as they respect me and know that i dont swing that way, im cool with them and we disagree in A NUMBER of aspects, but we respect eachother, they have the right not to believe, and i respect that.
Even thuogh, homo-lesbian do make things hard for Christians too.
How many gay people do you know who revere a book that says christians are worthy of death?Quote Actually i am American, yet im not really that American. I am from Honduras Also by the way, and i have studied diffrent kinds of people from differnt places. I have studied the religions of the world. i have studied alot about history as well,
Truth is that alot of people do not think about the good things about life,
I find americans to be welll…in a deeper mess than the rest of the world, but doesnt mean that the human soceity is automatically good.
you cant prove that every single person is good, becuuse you dont know the stuff they think about.
So now you are interested in thought crime as well. Have you read Orwell?Quote Cool? have you ever thought about killing somone while angry?
No, I never have.Quote have you ever thought about doing something dangerous?
In what way dangerous?Quote have you ever wanted to hurt someone? did you ever want to beat someone up? did you ever wish harm on someone else? did you ever want to burn your house down? did you ever want to blow up your job? did you ever want to run someone over only if you could!?
No to all of these. And I would say with reasonable confidence that none of my friends have thought this way either.Quote ever have thoughts like that? if wish you could go back in time and beat someone up? ever wish to erase someone out of your life? ever thought about cheating? hurting? teasing?
lieing? if your married have you never thought about another woman?
It is an important part of human development to learn the value of lying, and it is an important social skill to understand how to lie. I don't think I could call myself a heterosexual male if I had not thought about other women in the sense you mean, but how would that make me a doer of evil?Quote God doesnt want someone forced nor CONVINCED. he wants to be WANTED. the same with your wife. she doesnt want your love to be forced or demanded, she wants yoru love because you simply want to love her.
Wives don't threaten their husbands with lakes of fire if they don't believe.Quote Evolution is not observable, not what you claim is evolution today, but the exact moment, or the bringing of human species is not observable.
Well you are not going to see one species changing into another in front of your eyes, it is not like that. But it does not mean you cannot make observations that allow you to piece together how evolution has happened. The fact is that evolution by natural selection is so well established that it would be perverse to deny it, and actually natural selection happens to be the only scientific theory that explains how species have come into existence and disappeared throughout the history of the planet. Having said that, there are new species that have arisen since Darwin wrote Origin of Species in 1859. One example is a bacterium that feeds on chlorophenols, chemicals that have only existed since humans started making them last century. The bacterium is different from the one from which it arose, and its adaptations are new.Quote We are not talking about plants nor asexuals species. we are talkign about the human species. IF my memory
serves me correctly, we spoke abuot this before, if one day an apple doesnt fall but rises up than that disproves the gravational theory. So if i have always observed genders than i can say there has always been two, and there is nothing else to suggest that they werent two.
even though i agree that at one point of time there was ONE. than two.
All the species that are ancestors of humans going back hundreds of millions of years had males and females.Quote so you believe killing is wrong no matter what?
No. But I think self-defense is the only reasonable excuse.Quote No because the transgression is being dealt with.
So you don't care who is convicted, as long as there is a conviction? Do you call that justice?
Stu: Both the punishment and the substitution are unethical.Quote Why?
I think that if you are going to bring people to justice then it is a principle that the person who committed the crime is the one convicted. I also think that it is wrong for any state to use killing as a way of trying to dissuade people from killing, and that if the judicial execution is motivated by the need for revenge then that is not justice.Quote I do believe it, my Point is that there is a reason why they died. and for that reason is justified.
But you have not justified the divine killing of Uzzah, for example. He was only trying to help. How on earth is that just?Quote BUt that shouldnt even matter to you, because supposly you dont believe in God, so those deaths are not “real” to you. So in your terms, this really wouldnt pertain to you.
So what? We are discussing your god beliefs aren't we?Quote There is a reason why they died, was it ethical, was that Justice? did they deserve it? were these innocent people?
Tell me about Uzzah. Justify your god's violent response to someone whose motive was genuinely good.Quote No, because those people were ignornat, and didnt know God. just beacuse a person qoutes scriptures doesnt mean they are holy. any fool can qoute scripture, even the devil in scriptures qoutes scripture. Jesus wouldnt do that to people. Quote Im not God, please ASk him. I can tell you what MY WILL is, but how can i tell you what his exact will is, if im not him?
I can tell you one thing though,
He loves you, thats all i know.
If you can't tell me what your god's will is then how do you know you are not sinning all the time without knowing it?Quote You cant hold that as fact, because your takings peoples actions that are reactions to scripture that are misinterpreted. You have people acting like people basically with a religious symbol to blame it on.
It is not true that a man walked again again after he was judicially executed, and it is not true that anyone has ever been born on only one parent. Many christians base their world view on a fantasy creationist view of natural history. These things are not true by any reasonable standard, so while you could argue that truth is a personal construct, how is christianity based on truth?Quote Love is not like strengh. when you use your energy you lose energy, and you would need to consume food to keep it up. love isnt like that, the more you use it, the more it grows and mulitplies in other people. therefore Love is only cut off when you chose not to love, isolate yourself from people.
There is no end to love, unless you choose to stop loving.
the more you love, the more its grows.
Couldn't agree with you more. Do you not see many examples of this all around you every day?Quote last part is the defintions you asked for that are common and wanted to get it over with so here are some i agree with: Rebellion-noun
1. open, organized, and armed resistance to one's government or ruler.
2. resistance to or defiance of any authority, control, or tradition.-Obediance-noun
1. the state or quality of being obedient.
2. the act or practice of obeying; dutiful or submissive compliance: Military service demands obedience from its members.
If a god was immoral, should you not rebel against it?Quote Good-adjective
1. morally excellent; virtuous; righteous; pious: a good man.
2. satisfactory in quality, quantity, or degree: a good teacher; good health.
3. of high quality; excellent.
4. right; proper; fit: It is good that you are here. His credentials are good.
Nasty-–adjective
1. physically filthy; disgustingly unclean: a nasty pigsty of a room.
2. offensive to taste or smell; nauseating.
3. offensive; objectionable: a nasty habit.
Evil-adjective
1. morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked: evil deeds; an evil life.
2. harmful; injurious: evil laws.
3. characterized or accompanied by misfortune or suffering; unfortunate; disastrous: to be fallen on evil days.
4. due to actual or imputed bad conduct or character: an evil reputation.
5. marked by anger, irritability, irascibility, etc.: He is known for his evil disposition.
Do christians not include a mention of their god in definitions of good and evil?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,20:37) Quote (bodhitharta @ July 19 2010,04:39) Quote (Stu @ July 18 2010,22:51) Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god: http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html
As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.
Stuart
What no one wants to say to you but I will STU is that God can do whatever he wants and cannot be in the wrong because right or wrong is based upon the determination Law Giver only those receiving the law is subject to the law.Traffic cops double park, speed, cross lines improperly…they get no ticket.
Court judges get rude and yell in court whenever they want and they never get charged for contempt
A state can murder a Man who commits murder without being charged for murder
In Las Vegas it is Illegal to Gamble unless you do so where they tell you to and prostitution is the same. That's right you can legally lose all your money in a casino and then drive to right outside the town and have illicit sex at a brothel and it would be completely legal per the laws of Nevada
A man can drink Alcohol and fight with his wife in his own home but forbid anyone else drinking or fighting in his home.
With this approach to ethics, how would you be any different to a German concentration camp guard?Stuart
This was not a question regarding ethics it was regarding Law Givers and Law receivers and that is correct Hitler made it lawful to exterminate anyone whom he didn't like and particularly the Jews it took others outside his power and Law to extinguish his power and Law so my point still stands.God Has ALL the POWER and LAW and there is no outside or inside source to thwart it. God simply cannot be Judged
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 19 2010,21:02) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,10:32) Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 18 2010,21:23) Bod: If righteousness is by faith and believing God 'has made' us righteous…
God bless you, TK
Hi Tim,Believing God “IS MAKING” us righteous.
A work in progress, present tense; NOT PAST TENSE TIM!Righteousness means: doing right!
How 'you think' is irrelevant!
Ed J: We have been made the righteous of God in Christ!By faith, not by works. Rom.10:10—Rom10:3—Rom9:30
1Cor.1:30—11Cor.5:21 and many more.
One who works for righteousness is judged by his works and cannot walk in Christ.
All works of God are eternal. I am righteous, I am being made righteous and I will be righteous. By accepting Gods work done for us, not of ourselves, lest one might boast!
For me righteousness means perfections and right standing with God!
How you think is totally what you are. God is in your mind whether you accept that he is or you don't. There can be a poisonous snake by your leg but without conscious
awareness you may walk away and never even know it was there. Who you are has been created by you. What you have chosen over your life to accept as truth and believe is who
you are and how you see the world. Each path is different for every person.
You can exist without awareness but you would have no identity. Prov.23:7–…as a man thinketh in his heart, so he is…!
How you think is totally relevant, it is you!
Bless you, TK
You are right, as I have said sin is not believing God and God told Cain to change the way he thinks had he believed God he would have changed the way he thought and took a different course of action.Even when a person does sin(disbelieve God) it starts by someone or something altering the way you think about what God told you to believe:
Genesis 2:16-17 (King James Version)
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Genesis 3
1Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden:
3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die.
4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
God said believe one way, Satan said do not believe God
Now, the fact is that they did not die but the reason is because Satan already knew that God was a forgiving and merciful God and it was the will of God for them to be fruitful and multiply and HIS plans can not be thwarted.
In the book of Jonah this is proven
And Jonah began to enter into the city a day's journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.
Jonah 3:3-55 So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.
9 Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.
Jonah 4
1But it displeased Jonah exceedingly, and he was very angry.Satan probably was very angry as well
Then God teaches Jonah to change the way he thinks
2And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, was not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou art a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
3Therefore now, O LORD, take, I beseech thee, my life from me; for it is better for me to die than to live.
4Then said the LORD, Doest thou well to be angry?
Just as he said with cain
6And the LORD God prepared a gourd, and made it to come up over Jonah, that it might be a shadow over his head, to deliver him from his grief. So Jonah was exceeding glad of the gourd.
7But God prepared a worm when the morning rose the next day, and it smote the gourd that it withered.
8And it came to pass, when the sun did arise, that God prepared a vehement east wind; and the sun beat upon the head of Jonah, that he fainted, and wished in himself to die, and said, It is better for me to die than to live.
9And God said to Jonah, Doest thou well to be angry for the gourd? And he said, I do well to be angry, even unto death.
10Then said the LORD, Thou hast had pity on the gourd, for the which thou hast not laboured, neither madest it grow; which came up in a night, and perished in a night:
11And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle?
This is the truth
Psalm 78:38-40 (King James Version)
38But he, being full of compassion, forgave their iniquity, and destroyed them not: yea, many a time turned he his anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath.
39For he remembered that they were but flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again.
40How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!
So people must change the way they think and most importantly what the believe about God.
Everyone seems to want to tell God who to love and who to destroy and how to love and by what way but God has his own WILL and His ways are higher than ours.
Now when I mention that in the Quran it says that Jesus was saved from dying on the cross and everyone here says that's impossible just remember how God didn't allow Adam and Eve to die on that day.
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Genesis 3:3-5They did not die/ were not put to death
And surely your blood of your lives will I require; at the hand of every beast will I require it, and at the hand of man; at the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man.
Genesis 9:4-6Cain did not die/ was not put to death
Psalm 91:10-12 (King James Version)
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
and if you read the entire psalms 91 you will see that God in-fact did save Jesus
Psalm 9
1
1He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.2I will say of the LORD, He is my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
3Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, and from the noisome pestilence.
4He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth shall be thy shield and buckler.
5Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; nor for the arrow that flieth by day;
6Nor for the pestilence that walketh in darkness; nor for the destruction that wasteth at noonday.
7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.
8Only with thine eyes shalt thou behold and see the reward of the wicked.
9Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;
10There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague come nigh thy dwelling.
11For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.
12They shall bear thee up in their hands, lest thou dash thy foot against a stone.
13Thou shalt tread upon the lion and adder: the young lion and the dragon shalt thou trample under feet.
14Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.
15He shall call upon me, and I will answer him: I will be with him in trouble; I will deliver him, and honour him.
16With long life will I satisfy him, and shew him my salvation.
154 And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: “Enter the gate with humility”; and (once again) we commanded them: “Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath.” And we took from them a solemn covenant.
155 (They have incurred divine displeasure): In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah. that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, “Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah.s Word; We need no more)”;- Nay, Allah hath set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
156 That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
157 That they said (in boast), “We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
158 Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise;-
159 And there is none of the People of the Book but must believe in him before his death; and on the Day of Judgment he will be a witness against them;-( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, )
Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 19 2010,21:02) Quote (Ed J @ July 19 2010,10:32) Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 18 2010,21:23) Bod: If righteousness is by faith and believing God 'has made' us righteous…
God bless you, TK
Hi Tim,Believing God “IS MAKING” us righteous.
A work in progress, present tense; NOT PAST TENSE TIM!Righteousness means: doing right!
How 'you think' is irrelevant!
Ed J: We have been made the righteous of God in Christ!By faith, not by works. Rom.10:10—Rom10:3—Rom9:30
1Cor.1:30—11Cor.5:21 and many more.
Bless you, TK
Hi Tim,What you 'think' is irrelevant! Follow instead what the Scriptures say!
Rom.10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto
Righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
You're clearly reading into this verse; his believing is what produces righteous acts!Rom.10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish
their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
This is about non-believers; your putting 'spin' on this verse as well!Rom.9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness,
have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Gentiles do righteous acts because they believe!1Cor.1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness,
and sanctification, and redemption:
It's because of Christ's doing that we become righteous!11Cor.5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we
might be made the righteousness of God in him.
“Might be made” is an action; NOT A THOUGHT TIM!God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgStu,July wrote:[/quote]
Stuart,Quote Aren't there some basics in common
You would think so, but ask them for defintions like you asked me, and they will give you different things.
I was going to respond the basics is good and evil, and God and Jesus, God vs the Devil,
but we are even divided in such aspects. We are even divided in how the world started, there are even christian teachings of evolution. and so many diffrent views. like the preadamite rebellion and a bunch of things. Diffrent books, diffrent things. we all say Jesus, but depending whom you are speaking to i can assure you its not always the same Jesus.
NOW BIBLICALY SPEAKING, the BIble ends all our divisions which has the facts, that one, there is a God, that Jesus was the son of God, and that he Died, There is a “devil” and evils that try to destroy our relationship with God.
The divison starts with our “INTERPRETATION” and thats why we are so divided, because we make up things in scripture.for example as you stated the killings of homosexual based on “scripture”.
Salem witch trials based on “scripture”Get my point?
If we all stick to the bible, that wouldnt be the problem, the problem starts with us, and being closed minded to only what we think it says,
but if we say there is a God, and if we say that this God is real to us, than we should go and ask this God what is the truth, instead of relying on our own understanding. Truth is, most dont really ask God at all. They ask without being open, they ask to only accept what they think.Do we have basics in common,
the only common thing is God. thats it.Quote Do you believe that I should accept that Jesus was executed by the Romans in order that I can be in some way cleansed of my wrongdoing? Do you believe that the bible is the inspired writing of your god?
These are both things you appear to have been reluctant to accept I can claim you believe. The first is something I find obscene because it is fundamentally immoral, and the second relates to my comment about whether you would agree with Saul of Tarsus that homosexuality is deserving of death or with one of the writers of the Jewish bible that homosexuals should be put to death. Are these inspired by your god or not?
No, I believe that if YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, that Jesus layed down his life as he was crushed by YAWEHS wrath in order to save you. It wasnt the physical what bothered Jesus it was the omnipotent power that bothered him.
Its wasnt the romans that made him shake, it was the crushing power of God that crushed him.I do believe that the holy Scriptures are the inspired writing of God.
If you can, can you rewrite your last comment becuase i didnt understand it.
but if im getting it correctly…. i think your saying that is pauls ranting about homosexuals inspired by God.
Ok lets talk abuot which specfic ranting you speak of.
show me the verse.
and there are things that i do not believe are inspired. For example Paul wrote to timonthy to drink some wine so he can feel bettter? what does that really have to do with God?
So it depends.Should i be religously stupid and say that everytime we have a stomach ache we should drink wine?
or should i be discernly be wise and say that probably that was meant for its time, and shouldnt pertain that to the status quo of my life, and make a into a religous dogma which by the way believe it or not people actually believe this.Quote Now you're claiming I said things I didn't! Here's what I did write:
Do you have no understanding of the political history of homosexuality and the profound effect that Judeo-christian belief has had on that? Have you no clue about the suicide rates amongst gay teens? Do I need to point out to you your part in supporting an apparatus that has made life miserable for homosexuals for countless generations in countless places around the globe?Politics includes the pope, the UN, religious pushers and secularists. It is not all about party politics. Saul of Tarsus and Peter Simon were doing politics, and the gospel descriptions of Jesus tell a story of a preacher who was also a politician in many ways too.
LOl ok Stu! here is the POINT of why i said what you didnt state. if anything it was an example not something you stated.
I was stating that as a Christian im not responsible for the actions of others that might agree, or might be more of an extremest of what we agree on.Quote How many gay people do you know who revere a book that says christians are worthy of death?
I know a few, And its even hard for me to even state this publically.
But even in my own life the bible changed me as well.Quote So now you are interested in thought crime as well. Have you read Orwell?
Thought Crime? i have not.Quote
No, I never have.
In what way dangerous?
No to all of these. And I would say with reasonable confidence that none of my friends have thought this way either.
It is an important part of human development to learn the value of lying, and it is an important social skill to understand how to lie. I don't think I could call myself a heterosexual male if I had not thought about other women in the sense you mean, but how would that make me a doer of evil?
Ok im not Stu, so i couldnt say that you do or dont, but when it does happen my friend, Remember me and my questions. Dont forget about me.Quote Wives don't threaten their husbands with lakes of fire if they don't believe.
Wives threaten to cut Husbands off from their love, which is like a torment beyond any other.Quote Well you are not going to see one species changing into another in front of your eyes, it is not like that. But it does not mean you cannot make observations that allow you to piece together how evolution has happened. The fact is that evolution by natural selection is so well established that it would be perverse to deny it, and actually natural selection happens to be the only scientific theory that explains how species have come into existence and disappeared throughout the history of the planet. Having said that, there are new species that have arisen since Darwin wrote Origin of Species in 1859. One example is a bacterium that feeds on chlorophenols, chemicals that have only existed since humans
started making them last century. The bacterium is different from the one from which it arose, and its adaptations are new.
But we are talking abuot an unrecorded event, that happen according to you millions or thousands of years ago.
Which isnt observable.Quote All the species that are ancestors of humans going back hundreds of millions of years had males and females.
The orginal point was that since males and females are observerable today, i can say that it might have always been that way.Quote No. But I think self-defense is the only reasonable excuse.
So if a person X was killing one person of your family or friends every day, and the only way stopping this person was to kill person x, is that wrong?
How about war?
how about the iraq war, do you think its wrong for American soldiers or Peacekeepers to kill alquida soliders?Quote So you don't care who is convicted, as long as there is a conviction? Do you call that justice?
No, in order for justice to be acheived, someone MUST pay for these crimes. Since we couldnt do it, someone else did.Quote I think that if you are going to bring people to justice then it is a principle that the person who committed the crime is the one convicted. I also think that it is wrong for any state to use killing as a way of trying to dissuade people from killing, and that if the judicial execution is motivated by the need for revenge then that is not justice.
im so happy you told me this! now i know with who i am dealling with! this was a debate topic back in highschool that caused alot of problems.
But thats the miracle of it though. Dont you see? someone willing to take your place. ITs so hard to explain…..
I can only think of Narnia lol! for some reason.
When the boy was condemned by the law, that he did wrong and that he had to pay for it. and the Witch came to cliam him, and the Lion stepped in, and made a deal so that he can take his place in stead.
I dont know if this is a good example
but lets try this, when two people are climbing a mountain and one misplaces one of the holders to keep them from falling, and connected to eachother. The holder breaks and its in situation where the other person is hanging off of, the person who misplaced the holder.
Yet it would be FAIR for the person who misplaced the holder to die, but the other cuts of the rope, lays down his life so the other guy can continue on living.
There are situations that will require our death, and condmenation, yet there is someone who chose to step in.Quote But you have not justified the divine killing of Uzzah, for example. He was only trying to help. How on earth is that just?
Oh great you brought that up. Actually it wasnt even Uzzah fault it was davids. Not Just anyone could carry the Ark, only the levtical preisthood could, because David assumed just anyone can just take, it and notice before they didnt lay hands on it, because it was too holy, to powerful. It was just because it was an error caused by negligence of David. thats why David was afraid. Either way again you dont believe in this so it shouldnt bother you, because it doesnt exist. You shuldnt have any feelings abotu something that did not happen.Quote So what? We are discussing your god beliefs aren't we?
But if you dont believe he doesnt exist, how can we speak of a non-existant being? than it would be nonsense. Unless you would agree in the possibility of it.Quote Tell me about Uzzah. Justify your god's violent response to someone whose motive was genuinely good. Davids carelessness was the just reason, that caused someone else to die. Uzzah shouldnt have never been appointed in that position in the first place.
Quote If you can't tell me what your god's will is then how do you know you are not sinning all the time without knowing it?
Thats why i need him, and ask for forgiveness even about the things i dont know. because how could i know, this God sees hatred as Murder and lust as adultry.Quote It is not true that a man walked again again after he was judicially executed, and it is not true that anyone has ever been born on only one parent. Many christians base their world view on a fantasy creationist view of natural history. These things are not true by any reasonable standard, so while you could argue that truth is a personal construct, how is christianity based on truth?
God is Truth, Men could never have the truth because we create as you say fantasies. Even though its a fact that this man rose again and a fact that he was born of two parents, being God the father and a virgin mother.
What we hold as truth based on our own views is personal, when the views are from in other source such as the bible, its exteranal view. The problem is again, that people makea personal view about the external view. making what they think preside what is truth.Quote Couldn't agree with you more. Do you not see many examples of this all around you every day?
I dont publically, I see alot of people hating eachother. More christians than anything else. I have learned so much about love within my personal life. Its sad that in mosts church, this love is not practiced at all.
I think if you liked that, you would like 1 corinthians 13. which talks about how you can sing like an angel, have faith to move mountians, be smartest person in the world, be the most charitable person, and even give up your life, but if youd do not have love, you have nothing.Quote Do christians not include a mention of their god in definitions of good and evil?
I dont understand your question.Much love,
Stu,
by the way should we move this discussion to a different thread since bod is clearly not being discussed?SimplyForgiven
Quote You would think so, but ask them for defintions like you asked me, and they will give you different things. I was going to respond the basics is good and evil, and God and Jesus, God vs the Devil,
but we are even divided in such aspects. We are even divided in how the world started, there are even christian teachings of evolution. and so many diffrent views. like the preadamite rebellion and a bunch of things. Diffrent books, diffrent things. we all say Jesus, but depending whom you are speaking to i can assure you its not always the same Jesus.
NOW BIBLICALY SPEAKING, the BIble ends all our divisions which has the facts, that one, there is a God, that Jesus was the son of God, and that he Died, There is a “devil” and evils that try to destroy our relationship with God.
The divison starts with our “INTERPRETATION” and thats why we are so divided, because we make up things in scripture.
Regarding origins, the problem is with scripture itself though. Unless you treat it literally, then it can mean anything you want it to mean. What is wrong with following the evidence wherever it leads? That is what scientists do, and the answers they reach do not agree with a literal reading of the bible. So the problem is there for the christian that what appears to have happened in history is not what the book actually says.Quote for example as you stated the killings of homosexual based on “scripture”.
Salem witch trials based on “scripture”
Get my point?
If we all stick to the bible, that wouldnt be the problem, the problem starts with us, and being closed minded to only what we think it says,
Well the Jewish bible does actually say homosexuals should be killed, and the NT says they are worthy of death so I think there is a problem with this.Quote but if we say there is a God, and if we say that this God is real to us, than we should go and ask this God what is the truth, instead of relying on our own understanding. Truth is, most dont really ask God at all. They ask without being open, they ask to only accept what they think.
But if you are only saying there is a god, on what basis can you presume to ask it things?Quote Do we have basics in common,
the only common thing is God. thats it.
You would think that if it were all as absolutely true as most christians claim, it would be a bit more consistent that that, wouldn’t you.Quote
Do you believe that I should accept that Jesus was executed by the Romans in order that I can be in some way cleansed of my wrongdoing?Do you believe that the bible is the inspired writing of your god?
These are both things you appear to have been reluctant to accept I can claim you believe. The first is something I find obscene because it is fundamentally immoral, and the second relates to my comment about whether you would agree with Saul of Tarsus that homosexuality is deserving of death or with one of the writers of the Jewish bible that homosexuals should be put to death. Are these inspired by your god or not?
Quote No, I believe that if YOU CHOOSE TO BELIEVE, that Jesus layed down his life as he was crushed by YAWEHS wrath in order to save you. It wasnt the physical what bothered Jesus it was the omnipotent power that bothered him. Its wasnt the romans that made him shake, it was the crushing power of God that crushed him.
OK. I choose not to believe that nasty, immoral myth.Quote but if im getting it correctly…. i think your saying that is pauls ranting about homosexuals inspired by God. Ok lets talk abuot which specfic ranting you speak of.
show me the verse.
Romans 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
Romans 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.Quote and there are things that i do not believe are inspired. For example Paul wrote to timonthy to drink some wine so he can feel bettter? what does that really have to do with God?
So it depends. Should i be religously stupid and say that everytime we have a stomach ache we should drink wine? or should i be discernly be wise and say that probably that was meant for its time, and shouldnt pertain that to the status quo of my life, and make a into a religous dogma which by the way believe it or not people actually believe this.
Precisely what I would say about the origins myth in the bible. It didn’t really happen that way, so why the refusal to accept what the evidence says? Isn’t that being “religiously stupid” too?Stu: How many gay people do you know who revere a book that says christians are worthy of death?
Quote I know a few, And its even hard for me to even state this publically.
But even in my own life the bible changed me as well.
The question really requires you to name the book read by gay people that claims christians are worthy of death. Is there such a book?Stu: Wives don't threaten their husbands with lakes of fire if they don't believe.
Quote Wives threaten to cut Husbands off from their love, which is like a torment beyond any other.
Sure, but that is not a guaranteed outcome of a separation. It can be a beneficial thing too!Quote
Well you are not going to see one species changing into another in front of your eyes, it is not like that. But it does not mean you cannot make observations that allow you to piece together how evolution has happened. The fact is that evolution by natural selection is so well established that it would be perverse to deny it, and actually natural selection happens to be the only scientific theory that explains how species have come into existence and disappeared throughout the history of the planet. Having said that, there are new species that have arisen since Darwin wrote Origin of Species in 1859. One example is a bacterium that feeds on chlorophenols, chemicals that have only existed since humans started making them last century. The bacterium is different from the one from which it arose, and its adaptations are new.Quote But we are talking abuot an unrecorded event, that happen according to you millions or thousands of years ago.
Which isnt observable.
No, that particular example happened within the last century. And anyway, you can observe the fossils that record the details of evolution so it is completely observable. If that is not observation then you obviously don’t believe in forensic science either.Quote The orginal point was that since males and females are observerable today, i can say that it might have always been that way.
Fossils!Quote
No. But I think self-defense is the only reasonable excuse.So if a person X was killing one person of your family or friends every day, and the only way stopping this person was to kill person x, is that wrong?[/quote]
Didn’t I say self-defense was a reasonable excuse? No real difference between that and coming to the defense of another in immediate mortal danger.Quote How about war?
how about the iraq war, do you think its wrong for American soldiers or Peacekeepers to kill alquida soliders?
What has Al Qaeda got to do with the invasion of Iraq? How would it be the role of a peacekeeper to kill except in self-defense?Quote No, in order for justice to be acheived, someone MUST pay for these crimes. Since we couldnt do it, someone else did.
Bollocks. If you can’t catch the right person then you can’t call it justice. That is the basis of the justice system in your country, much abused as it may be.Quote im so happy you told me this! now i know with who i am dealling with! this was a debate topic back in highschool that caused alot of problems.
But thats the miracle of it though. Dont you see? someone willing to take your place. ITs so hard to explain…..
I can only think of Narnia lol! for some reason. When the boy was condemned by the law, that he did wrong and that he had to pay for it. and the Witch came to cliam him, and the Lion stepped in, and made a deal so that he can take his place in stead.
Well if you are going to base your ethics on the miserable witterings of CS Lewis then I don’t have much time for your morals, I’m afraid.Quote I dont know if this is a good example but lets try this, when two people are climbing a mountain and one misplaces one of the holders to keep them from falling, and connected to eachother. The holder breaks and its in situation where the other person is hanging off of, the person who misplaced the holder.
Yet it would be FAIR for the person who misplaced the holder to die, but the other cuts of the rope, lays down his life so the other guy can continue on living. There are situations that will require our death, and condmenation, yet there is someone who chose to step in.
I don’t understand your example.Quote Oh great you brought that up. Actually it wasnt even Uzzah fault it was davids. Not Just anyone could carry the Ark, only the levtical preisthood could, because David assumed just anyone can just take, it and notice before they didnt lay hands on it, because it was too holy, to powerful. It was just because it was an error caused by negligence of David. thats why David was afraid.
Your god got angry with Uzzah. That’s what it actually says in your book of mythology!Quote Either way again you dont believe in this so it shouldnt bother you, because it doesnt exist. You shuldnt have any feelings abotu something that did not happen.
Well we will have to stop our conversation now if you are not prepared to have me pretend your stories are true for the purpose of discussing them!Quote But if you dont believe he doesnt exist, how can we speak of a non-existant being? than it would be nonsense. Unless you would agree in the possibility of it.
You were happy to tell me about characters in Narnia. They do not exist either!Quote Davids carelessness was the just reason, that caused someone else to die. Uzzah shouldnt have never been appointed in that position in the first place.
But your god couldn’t see the right in that?Stu: If you can't tell me what your god's will is then how do you know you are not sinning all the time without knowing it?
Quote Thats why i need him, and ask for forgiveness even about the things i dont know. because how could i know, this God sees hatred as Murder and lust as adultry.
So you hear voices in your head telling you what god wants you to do?Quote God is Truth,
Meaningless statement. It is what is known as a category error, like “sarcasm is blue”.Quote … Even though its a fact that this man rose again
No it’s not.Quote and a fact that he was born of two parents, being God the father and a virgin mother.
Not true either.Quote What we hold as truth based on our own views is personal, when the views are from in other source such as the bible, its exteranal view. The problem is again, that people makea personal view about the external view. making what they think preside what is t
ruth.
No, it’s an internalisation of a mythology that leads to nonsense being believed as literally true.Quote I dont publically, I see alot of people hating eachother. More christians than anything else. I have learned so much about love within my personal life. Its sad that in mosts church, this love is not practiced at all.
I think if you liked that, you would like 1 corinthians 13. which talks about how you can sing like an angel, have faith to move mountians, be smartest person in the world, be the most charitable person, and even give up your life, but if youd do not have love, you have nothing.
that is what I say about creationists all the time. Their voices are clanging bells because they do not have any love for the subject about which they tell lies.Stu: Do christians not include a mention of their god in definitions of good and evil?
Quote I dont understand your question.
Shouldn’t your definition of evil mention a god, or what it wants, somewhere in it?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 20 2010,23:57) SimplyForgiven Your god got angry with Uzzah. That’s what it actually says in your book of mythology!
Stuart
Hi Stuart,These were not levite's that handled the Ark!
The levite's knew how to handle the Ark;
with wooden (non-conductive) rods.1Samuel 6:7-8 Now therefore make a new cart, and take two milch kine, on which there hath come no yoke,
and tie the kine to the cart, and bring their calves home from them: And take the ark of the LORD,
and lay it upon the cart; and put the jewels of gold, which ye return him for a trespass
offering, in a coffer by the side thereof; and send it away, that it may go.You are now 'only beginning' to learn of “Our YHVH”=117!
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shall keep them, O LORD(YHVH), thou shall preserve them(in The AKJV Bible) from this generation forever.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips “and another tongue” will (That is: in English) “HE” speak to this people.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.orgQuote (Ed J @ July 21 2010,04:08) Quote (Stu @ July 20 2010,23:57) SimplyForgiven Your god got angry with Uzzah. That’s what it actually says in your book of mythology!
Stuart
Hi Stuart,These were not levite's that handled the Ark!
The levite's knew how to handle the Ark;
with wooden (non-conductive) rods.1Samuel 6:7-8 Now therefore make a new cart, and take two milch kine, on which there hath come no yoke,
and tie the kine to the cart, and bring their calves home from them: And take the ark of the LORD,
and lay it upon the cart; and put the jewels of gold, which ye return him for a trespass
offering, in a coffer by the side thereof; and send it away, that it may go.You are now 'only beginning' to learn of “Our YHVH”=117!
Psalm 12:6-7 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
Thou shall keep them, O LORD(YHVH), thou shall preserve them(in The AKJV Bible) from this generation forever.
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips “and another tongue” will (That is: in English) “HE” speak to this people.Witnessing to the world in behalf of YHVH (Psalm 45:17)
117=יהוה האלהים (JEHOVAH GOD) YÄ-hä-vā hä ĔL-ō-Hêêm!
Ed J (AKJV Joshua 22:34 / Isaiah 60:13-15)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org
Why did you say “that is in english”?Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,00:50) theodorej If you can imitate the specific symptoms of a mental illness so well in front of a psychiatrist that he says “I diagnose you as having x, for which I offer you this treatment on your consent” then it is you who is being bogus if you accept the drugs, unless you can also demonstrate that the treatment itself has no effect above placebo, unlike say prayer which definitely does.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….By virtue of my being able to mimick mental illness and the shrinks treatment of same speaks to the fact that I can be anybody I want to be and brings into question the professionals assumed ability to know what is in my head….the drugs that are prescribed just supports my contention that no one is ever cured ….only treated..Quote (theodorej @ July 22 2010,00:10) Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,00:50) theodorej If you can imitate the specific symptoms of a mental illness so well in front of a psychiatrist that he says “I diagnose you as having x, for which I offer you this treatment on your consent” then it is you who is being bogus if you accept the drugs, unless you can also demonstrate that the treatment itself has no effect above placebo, unlike say prayer which definitely does.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….By virtue of my being able to mimick mental illness and the shrinks treatment of same speaks to the fact that I can be anybody I want to be and brings into question the professionals assumed ability to know what is in my head….the drugs that are prescribed just supports my contention that no one is ever cured ….only treated..
Is the only goal of medical practice a cure?Stuart
Quote (Stu @ July 22 2010,17:29) Quote (theodorej @ July 22 2010,00:10) Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,00:50) theodorej If you can imitate the specific symptoms of a mental illness so well in front of a psychiatrist that he says “I diagnose you as having x, for which I offer you this treatment on your consent” then it is you who is being bogus if you accept the drugs, unless you can also demonstrate that the treatment itself has no effect above placebo, unlike say prayer which definitely does.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….By virtue of my being able to mimick mental illness and the shrinks treatment of same speaks to the fact that I can be anybody I want to be and brings into question the professionals assumed ability to know what is in my head….the drugs that are prescribed just supports my contention that no one is ever cured ….only treated..
Is the only goal of medical practice a cure?Stuart
UH…! Duh…!…….YEA… Stu…read the Hipocratic oath.Quote (theodorej @ July 22 2010,22:22) Quote (Stu @ July 22 2010,17:29) Quote (theodorej @ July 22 2010,00:10) Quote (Stu @ July 19 2010,00:50) theodorej If you can imitate the specific symptoms of a mental illness so well in front of a psychiatrist that he says “I diagnose you as having x, for which I offer you this treatment on your consent” then it is you who is being bogus if you accept the drugs, unless you can also demonstrate that the treatment itself has no effect above placebo, unlike say prayer which definitely does.
Stuart
Greetings Stu….By virtue of my being able to mimick mental illness and the shrinks treatment of same speaks to the fact that I can be anybody I want to be and brings into question the professionals assumed ability to know what is in my head….the drugs that are prescribed just supports my contention that no one is ever cured ….only treated..
Is the only goal of medical practice a cure?Stuart
UH…! Duh…!…….YEA… Stu…read the Hipocratic oath.
Why? Does that say there is no point in controlling a chronic condition that will never be cured?Stuart
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