Debating bodhitharta

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 16 2010,22:37)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 16 2010,22:03)

Works are the opposite of faith.

Hi Tim,

You sure do have a lot of things mixed up Tim!

Fear is the opposite of faith! (1John 4:18)
Faith produces works, so faith and works go hand in hand! (James 2:18)

James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: show
me thy faith without thy works, and I will show thee my faith by my works.

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

Ed J: When I said works are the opposite of faith here is what was itended.

Trying to do good works to be a good person to be accepted by God is the opposite to, believing God has cleansed you and made you whole. Faith in the fact that God has done the works for our perfection through Jesus. We can do nothing to cleans ourselfves, only God can. Salvation in total is by faith.

I stand corrected on the mis-quote of you, that was an error on my part.

Do you believe that good works can save you?

What are the works that you are talking about that come by faith?

July 16, 2010 at 9:37 pm#204303

Participant

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 17 2010,05:51)

Works are the opposite of faith.

this is where you said this tim craft.

when you were replying to me

SF: There are works of kindness and good deeds on this earth.

There are works of faith to believe what God has done for mankind through Jesus. This one is a gift recieved by faith.

Works of kindness and good deeds are done by many and can be done by anyone.

Faith works from God are power works of healing through the annointing of the spirit of God.

The two are different paths. TK

July 17, 2010 at 1:48 am#204333

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 17 2010,08:37)

Quote (SimplyForgiven @ July 17 2010,05:51)

Works are the opposite of faith.

this is where you said this tim craft.

when you were replying to me

SF: There are works of kindness and good deeds on this earth.

There are works of faith to believe what God has done for mankind through Jesus. This one is a gift recieved by faith.

Works of kindness and good deeds are done by many and can be done by anyone.

Faith works from God are power works of healing through the annointing of the spirit of God.

The two are different paths. TK

Actually I agree with SF.

Works of Kindness and good deeds and believing itself is all that is required. If you believe you do that is the Gospel

July 17, 2010 at 10:17 am#204458

Participant

Thanks for the response guys! The old testament religious order was under law which demanded physical works to attempt perfection and cleanliness. Along with the law came judgment and sin. Where there is no law there is no error/sin or judgment. There was no law when the word sin was first used in Gen.4:7.

This is the most important truth in the Bible to me. If in the new testament, Jesus didn't take away the sin of the world then we are all still in sin. If in sin we are mentally separated from God. If Jesus didn't give us our righteousness then we are trying to earn it by good deeds. That is no different than the old testament that could not make one perfect.

If it is possible to sin and not know it, it is impossible to be without a sin consciousness. A sin consciousness can receive nothing from God. God does not dwell in sin and there is no sin in God. Sin separates man from God. For me, I have offered my last sacrifice forever in Jesus. My understanding is, that sacrifice covers me from sin eternally. I believe I am cleansed by that sacrifice and not by any good works I might do or not do. There is therefore no judgment for those alive in Christ. The dead will be judged in the books, but those who accept the cleansing of Jesus are alive forevermore.

I thought Jesus gave his life to cleanse us from sin. Though your sins are like scarlet they shall be white as snow…! Apparantly not. Now apparantly we are worse than when the ot law was in effect. At least they offered sacrifices for sin.

Gal.3:1–Paul said, “you foolish Galations, WHO HATH BEWITCHED YOU!–…..v2” Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law or hearing by faith? v3…are ye so foolish? having begun in the spirit are you now made perfect by(good deeds in) the flesh?

v10…for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. v11…no man is justified by the law in the sight of God. The just live by faith.

After a person accepts his righteousness by faith in God he is made perfect in Christ. His works will then be comensuate with his cleansing. It cannot be the other way around. Spiritual in the mind first for cleansing by faith, then works reflect the love created from perfection.

Sin is in the mind and must be wahed away by the word of God. Sin is not an action, it is a belief that something one does is sin. There are not sin(s) plural. The plural was added by translation. SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEVING! Sin is believing that anything one can do could separate him from God. God forgives all sin thinking and the sacrifice of Jesus covers all sin thinking eternally.

We are free from sin through Jesus or we continue to be in bondage to sin, judgment,unrighteousness, and the curse. God bless you, TK

July 17, 2010 at 10:23 am#204461

Participant

This is the most important truth in the Bible to me. If in the new testament, Jesus didn't take away the sin of the world then we are all still in sin. If in sin we are mentally separated from God. If Jesus didn't give us our righteousness by faith, then we are trying to earn it by good deeds. That is no different than the old testament that could not make one perfect.

v10…for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. v11…no man is justified by the law in the sight of God. The just live by faith.

We are free from sin through Jesus or we continue to be in bondage to sin, judgment,unrighteousness, and the curse. God bless you, TK

July 17, 2010 at 10:29 am#204463

Participant

This is the most important truth in the Bible to me. If in the new testament, Jesus didn't take away the sin of the world then we are all still in sin. If in sin we are mentally separated from God. If Jesus didn't give us our righteousness by faith, then we are trying to earn it by good deeds. That is no different than the old testament that could not make one perfect.

v10…for as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse. v11…no man is justified by the law in the sight of God. The just live by faith.

Sin is not what you do, it is whatever you believe to be sin. Sin is the uncleanliness in the mind and must be washed away by the word of God. Sin is not an action, it is a belief that something one does is sin. There are not sin(s) plural. The plural was added by translation. SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEVING! Sin is believing that anything one can do could separate him from God. Works and deeds are not sin against God, unless you believe they are. Cleanse your mind with the truth. God forgives all sin thinking and the sacrifice of Jesus covers all sin thinking eternally.

We are free from sin through Jesus' works or we continue to be in bondage to sin, judgment,unrighteousness, and the curse. God bless you, TK

July 17, 2010 at 11:08 am#204470

Ed J

Participant

Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 17 2010,21:17)

This is the most important truth in the Bible to me.

…God bless you, TK

Hi Tim,

BD has rejected my help. quran=Babylon; and Babylon means confusion.
You still retain a lot of confusion; hopefully Tim, you'll accept my help?
Zerubbabel means coming out of (removing) confusing. (Zech.4:9)

Romans 7:9 does NOT mean before the law (according to TIm) there was no sin,
it means the the law brought with it the awareness of sin; GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

July 17, 2010 at 7:21 pm#204576

Participant

Quote (Ed J @ July 17 2010,22:08)

Quote (Tim Kraft @ July 17 2010,21:17)

This is the most important truth in the Bible to me.

…God bless you, TK

Hi Tim,

Romans 7:9 does NOT mean before the law (according to TIm) there was no sin,
it means the the law brought with it the awareness of sin; GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT!

God bless
Ed J (Joshua 22:34)
http://www.holycitybiblecode.org

“ED is lucifer” in English Gematria Equals: 666

You know a lot about Sin

July 17, 2010 at 7:47 pm#204579

Participant

Quote

Sin is not what you do, it is whatever you believe to be sin.

This can not be quite true because with Cain he did not believe he was acting wrongly God told him that he was acting in such a way
that sin would come about.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 4:6-8

If sin lieth at the door it must be active before it is an action or even a thought

Quote

Sin is the uncleanliness in the mind and must be washed away by the word of God. Sin is not an action, it is a belief that something one does is sin.

This also cannot be quite true because Cain did not show that he felt what he did was wrong therefore he did not consider himself as sinning but he did sin and he was punished

Quote

There are not sin(s) plural. The plural was added by translation. SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEVING!

Sin is the error in not believing God. Adam and Eve didn't believe God and sinned Cain didn't believe God and sinned

Quote

Sin is believing that anything one can do could separate him from God.

That's not true because when David sinned he did not feel seperated from God nor for that matter anytime I have sinned I have not felt seperated from God. Sin points out the fact that you have not fully believed or understood what God has taught you. Just like in school when we don't get 100% on a test it shows where our weaknesses are

Quote

Works and deeds are not sin against God, unless you believe they are. Cleanse your mind with the truth. God forgives all sin thinking and the sacrifice of Jesus covers all sin thinking eternally.

Yes, If this is believed and what God taught you it is true

Quote

We are free from sin through Jesus' works or we continue to be in bondage to sin, judgment,unrighteousness, and the curse. God bless you, TK

The curse comes from disbelief

Psalm 78:21-23 (King James Version)

21Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

22Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

23Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,

Righteousness is believing God

Jonah 3:5 (King James Version)

5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

these people were saved

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:2-4

July 18, 2010 at 6:00 am#204681

SimplyForgiven

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 18 2010,00:47)

Quote

Sin is not what you do, it is whatever you believe to be sin.

This can not be quite true because with Cain he did not believe he was acting wrongly God told him that he was acting in such a way
that sin would come about.

If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
Genesis 4:6-8

If sin lieth at the door it must be active before it is an action or even a thought

Quote

Sin is the uncleanliness in the mind and must be washed away by the word of God. Sin is not an action, it is a belief that something one does is sin.

This also cannot be quite true because Cain did not show that he felt what he did was wrong therefore he did not consider himself as sinning but he did sin and he was punished

Quote

There are not sin(s) plural. The plural was added by translation. SIN IS AN ERROR OF BELIEVING!

Sin is the error in not believing God. Adam and Eve didn't believe God and sinned Cain didn't believe God and sinned

Quote

Sin is believing that anything one can do could separate him from God.

Quote

Works and deeds are not sin against God, unless you believe they are. Cleanse your mind with the truth. God forgives all sin thinking and the sacrifice of Jesus covers all sin thinking eternally.

Yes, If this is believed and what God taught you it is true

Quote

We are free from sin through Jesus' works or we continue to be in bondage to sin, judgment,unrighteousness, and the curse. God bless you, TK

The curse comes from disbelief

Psalm 78:21-23 (King James Version)

21Therefore the LORD heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and anger also came up against Israel;

22Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation:

23Though he had commanded the clouds from above, and opened the doors of heaven,

Righteousness is believing God

Jonah 3:5 (King James Version)

5So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them.

these people were saved

For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Romans 4:2-4

Bod!
Great response!!

for the first time i dont feel like i have to make you feel stupid!
or at least try to.

I would have responded the same!
thx for doing the work for me!

and the sin lieth at the door before thoughts or actions, is a great point.

with that Tk whole arguements falls since it derives from the coginitive thinking.

July 18, 2010 at 10:23 am#204751

Participant

Bod: I appreciate your response and the respectful way you present. There are some that have no class at all!

If the curse comes from unbelief then how are you kept from the curse? By doing good deeds or by believing that God has cleansed you?

The sin that Israel did was not believing in the salvation God had provided! Jesus/God has now provided a greater salvation than before. If we believe in the new salvation in Christ our sin is washed away. Its either that, or are we made perfect through the deeds and works we perform?

If righteousness is by faith and believing God has made us righteous, then, unbelief or not believing that God made us righteous would leave us unrighteous! Totally apart from good works or deeds of any kind. Faith/righteous–Unbelief/unrighteous!

You said sin is the error of not believing God.Which is to say there is no sin/error to one who believes. If in the 15th Chap.John v3, Jesus says,…”Now ye are clean through the word that I have spoken unto you”…then if we believe what he said to be the truth then we are clean. Just by faith in what he said. Not by any form of works or deeds, we recieve by faith.

If we recieve cleansing by faith in what Jesus/God says then how is it that some say you fall away from God by works or deeds? If faith cleanses then only disbelieving the truth can make you unclean. Works and deeds have no part in the cleansing or uncleansing.

Another thing that confuses me is that if there is any sin in the mind of a man, God cannot dwell in him! God has no sin and cannot dwell in sin. I thought God provided Jesus to work the perfect work for mankind that man could receive perfection through the cleansing of sin from his mind/heart. Heb9:26

If he still believes he has sin then he is unclean and cannot associate with God. I thought we were MADE free from sin and death Rom6:18!

Anyone that commiteth, (abides in or agrees with) sin, is a servant of sin. John8:34

Whosoever is born of God sinneth not…1John5:18—-Its seems to me that if people believe that they can sin and not even know it that they have a sin consciousness and cannot abide with God.

Jesus saw a man which was blind from birth and his disciples ask him,…”who did sin, this man or his parents, that he was born blind”?

Jesus answered him,….”NEITHER HATH THIS MAN SINNED, NOR HIS PARENTS”….John9:3!

Jesus went on to say, but that the WORKS OF GOD should be made manifest in him, I must WORK THE WORKS OF HIM WHO SENT ME!
Healing on every level is the true power work of God. Not good deeds.

Thanks for your time Bod, God bless you, TK

July 18, 2010 at 10:48 am#204756

Participant

Quote (bodhitharta @ July 15 2010,02:43)

STU,

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth.

You keep spouting what is wrong and then you keep stating nothing is really wrong but that proves what I said about atheists before to them right and wrong is arbitrary

Again, this time in English?

Stuart

July 18, 2010 at 11:45 am#204758

Participant

SimplyForgiven

Quote

Your starting to be unreasonable.
Your stating what i have not said.
and making conclusions based on what i did not say nor do.

I am stating what I think christians believe. If you do not believe these same things then you are perfectly at liberty to tell me how your belief system differs from other christians.

Quote

You claim im making life miserable for others. thats untrue nor do you have any evidence of that. Your a person based on facts, im shocked you make such conclusions.

Do you have no understanding of the political history of homosexuality and the profound effect that Judeo-christian belief has had on that? Have you no clue about the suicide rates amongst gay teens? Do I need to point out to you your part in supporting an apparatus that has made life miserable for homosexuals for countless generations in countless places around the globe?

Quote

Fact is that if i ever saw a homosexul being attacked by a pastor or a christian, by being judge or mocked, i wuold be there defending the homosexual. FYI God commands us to love eachother.

Yes but that is trivial, isn’t it. What you should really be doing is saying that christianity loves not just the people but it appreciates that is has been those of the Abrahamic religions that have used their book of mythology to cause misery to gay people. Have you torn Paul’s homophobic rant in Romans out of your bible? How about Leviticus and Deuteronomy? Do they still have pride of place in there? You read a book that commands their death, and calls them worthy of death. Do you see the problem now?

Quote

Lol You can believe that but thats untrue. Do you know how many people end up talking to a psychologist, do you know how many people are more than willing to kill. Did you know it takes one tramatic event to set a person off.
Actually my friend, the facts show the 5% are the good people.
You havent studied humanity enough, the secret things they have in their closet, the things they think about, is nasty.

Define good. Define nasty. What a bitter view you have of humanity. Are you American? Do you not believe that you live in a guns and religion-crazed paranoid society? I am sure many are not like that, but you appear to be viewing it through those eyes.

Quote

ACTUALLY. your again stating what i didnt say. WE are evil beings,

I am not. Speak for yourself.

Quote

and there are even ones who have nothing but good deeds. but thats not the point at all, to be good or evil, but to be in love, and having a relationship with God, is the goal and focus.

Having a relationship with something that isn’t really there is not my goal.

Quote

Come as you are, good or evil.
We tell the people that they are loved and let them think for themeselves as they CHOOSE to love others.

In my experience that sentiment is often followed by “dusting off ones shoes” when the person appears not to be taking the bait.

Stu: No there wasn't. The fact is there never was a time when there were just two humans.

Quote

Actually thats a theory not fact.

No, the fact part is the evolution bit and the theory bit is the natural selection part. The theory is really a fact looked at from a different philosophical point of view. If you said the fact of evolution explained by the fact of natural selection it would really make little difference, give how well-established natural selection has become.

Quote

and for the sake of debate, lets say evolution is true, you would still be wrong. because not one individual is EXACTLY the same as the other. if there is a process of change at a given point in time, than it is VERY possible for at least a second in the history of earth for there to be 1 or 2 humans.

No, the appearance of humans depends on your definition of species. You really cannot say that up to point x in time a species was one thing, then suddenly it was another because for that situation it is always an arbitrary classification, and you cannot say that these two are of a new species because you would have to have two new individuals capable of reproducing together but not reproducing with any other individuals. And their line would die out in short order because of the ultimate in in-breeding.

Quote

This isnt oberservable so it remains in the basis of theory.

What exactly isn’t observable?

Quote

we have always obesreved two genders, i can correctly assume its always been that way.
you couldnt say thats not possible nor that it is.

The evolution of gender is a very interesting question, and it is not an easy one to answer but you cannot assume it has always been like it is today. Even today we have many asexually reproducing species, and species that reproduce sexually from hermaphroditic individuals that have the parts of both sexes (most sexually reproducing plants, and snails for example). There are species of plant that have some sexual reproduction in their evolutionary history, and have lost it later to become asexual reproducers.

Stu: Are you suggesting that an omnipotent ruler of the universe would need to kill in self-defense??

Quote

you avoided the question. and stating what i did not say.
did i state to self-defense?
is it self-defense when a judge gives the death penalty to the criminal?

Well I was waiting for you to give an example of a justified killing, and in my opinion you still haven’t.

Quote

besides that, i didnt even elude to that.
stick to the question.

I was perfectly sticking to the question.

Quote

if God had the ethical reason to kill, would that be unethical, in other words, if God as a judge had the right to kill, would that not be justice?

I don’t think judicial killing is ethical.

Quote

In this case romans were being used by the Jews. So fact he was condemned by the jews to die a sinners death. anyone who died in a cross was Jewish “belief” to go straight to hell. It was curse to be on a cross. Dioynsus was also made to mirror such an event, but if you study the story it is no where near the same. its called counterfiets of myths compared to an actual event.

Did the Jews nail him up?

Quote

lol not if its done by choice.

No, it is a miscarriage of justice if the wrong person is convicted, no matter what choosing has gone on.

Quote

lol ok lets change the example.
A son is about to be condemned, the father takes his place, and dies in his stead. is that unethical if the father did that out of love to save his son?

Both the punishment and the substitution are unethical.

Stu: And you insist that unless I accept that nasty fantasy story then I will suffer punishment by fire. Nice.

Quote

do you love stating the things i did not say. are you feeling conviction? thats the only reason you would say such a thing, if i have not stated it.

Can I assume then that you reject the bible?

Quote

You keep on talking about the milllions yet you have no idea why they died. can you tell me?

The millions of deaths that the Judeo-christian book of mythology attributes to its god are actually deaths from wars, famines and plagues, common events for ancient people and for not-so ancient ones too. I was just going along with the mythology for the purpose of discussion. Do you not believe in that part of the bible either?

Quote

do you care about how many died in hiroshima during the atomic bomb?

Yes. And I know the real reason they died. No religion has claimed it as an act of their deity as far as I am aware, although I would well believe that some christians might have thought that way at the time.

Quote

First of all evil, is doing things that are not good, the oppiste opposing force of Good.

You are defining one unknown in terms of another unknown.

Quote

Evil is everything that is selfish, and seeks to please itself.

So when I sit down to listen to a Beethoven Piano Concerto for the sheer selfish pleasure it brings, I am being evil.

Quote

Evil is filled with hatred, hatred towards ideas and anyone who does not conform or please his/her self desiring glory or desires.

So the hatred for the idea of evolution by natural selection held by evangelical types makes them evil.

Quote

Good intentions are also evil, doing things in a belief that they are good, but are actually evil because it forces another individual to do what you think is correct, when the other person is unwilling to change, you force them to by forceing their hand, or by whatever means nessary.

This bit makes no sense to me.

Quote

gruesome= something nasty, disgusting.

One unknown defined in terms of two other unknowns.

Quote

wrong= opposite of right, doing everything that is not right, and doing everythign that is flawed and causes damages to the people around them.

So it is wrong to recommend a book that condemns homosexuality because that contributes to the damage of homosexuals (as exemplified by their execution, imprisonment, and misery that has derived from christians quoting scripture).

Quote

against God= any rebellion agaisnt Gods will, any seperate will from Gods is against him.

Define god’s will! That is what the NT doesn’t do in regard to what is sin.

Quote

Good= is doing things righetously, making choices based on the good for others and for yourself, making choices based on love and truth.

I hope to make choices based on love and truth, as I am sure you do too. That is the principle that has reinforced my objections to christianity, which clearly is not based on these principles.

Quote

obediance= is to follow a person. to correctly follow a code or orders that is presented. when it comes to God we must obey his will.

Whatever that is.

Quote

Rebellion- to attack or uphold ones own tought or desires agaisnt the orginal structure, and seek to over throw it.

Define the “original structure” and demonstrate it has any reality.

Quote

Prove to me that he is violent? can you show me where God is constantitly violent?

Please see next post. Bear in mind that judicial execution is an act of violence, by definition.

Quote

the creditability comes through his perfection.

So this is the god that is “most” everything. Most just, most pure, most loving, most smelly, most irascible, most petulant, most violent: indeed it is the role model for all those seeking expressions of the most perfectly violent being.

Stuart

July 18, 2010 at 11:51 am#204759

http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2006….ed.html

Participant

Please see this website for the numbers of people that the bible says has been killed by its god:

As many will know, my favourite example of this god's callous lack of compassion is its killing of Uzzah, who was only trying to help.

Stuart

July 18, 2010 at 1:23 pm#204762

theodorej

Participant

Greetings Simply Forgiven…..With reference to you debate with Stu…You touched on a point that speaks to the credability of the science of Physcology….It is my feeling that this science,with respect to an individual who professes to know the mind of man is bogus…Simply ask any shrink if he has ever cured anyone….”For who could know the heart of the man”…..I can intervue with one of these so called professionals and be any body I want to be and probably walk out of his office with a prescription for some mind altering drug..

July 18, 2010 at 1:50 pm#204766

Participant

theodorej

If you can imitate the specific symptoms of a mental illness so well in front of a psychiatrist that he says “I diagnose you as having x, for which I offer you this treatment on your consent” then it is you who is being bogus if you accept the drugs, unless you can also demonstrate that the treatment itself has no effect above placebo, unlike say prayer which definitely does.

Stuart

July 18, 2010 at 5:39 pm#204803