Death blow to anti-trinitarianism

[KangarooJack]

Jesus said of Himself:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8

Attn bodhitharta: What was that you said about a “death blow” to trinitarianism?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Why would you quote God's words about Himself and apply it to Jesus?
You will only confuse yourself.

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,12:40)

Jesus said of Himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 Attn bodhitharta: What was that you said about a “death blow” to trinitarianism? thinker

Thanks my friend. What do you think of this:

Rev 1

5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth.
To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen

Thanks again. I love you!

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,12:42)

Hi TT, Why would you quote God's words about Himself and apply it to Jesus? You will only confuse yourself.

Uh Nick, it is Jesus speaking. Read the context.

thinker

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
Context is not as reliable in Revelation as it contains sequences from different speakers.
Check it out.
Rev 1

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

What do you think of this: Rev 1 5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler over the kings of the earth. To Him who loved us and washed[a] us from our sins in His own blood, 6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen

Bd,
Whats your point bd? I have pointed out from Hebrews that the Father said to Jesus “O God” and also “Your God.” It is clearly Jesus speaking in verse 8 saying “I am …the almighty.”

Love you too man! (hugs and kisses)

thinker

p.s. I am done for tonight

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
The Father is the God of Jesus.
God does not have a god.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,12:53)

Hi TT, Context is not as reliable in Revelation as it contains sequences from different speakers. Check it out. Rev 1

Nick,
It is Christ speaking. Check out verse 17,

Quote

…I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen.

It is Christ speaking. The Father was never “dead.” Jesus said “I am the First and the Last.” YHWH said He was the First and the Last (Is. 44:6). Ergo….

thinker

[942767]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,12:40)

Jesus said of Himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 Attn bodhitharta: What was that you said about a “death blow” to trinitarianism? thinker

Hi thethinker:

This is what Jesus meant by saying he was the Alpha and Omega:

Quote

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Love in Christ,
Marty

[KangarooJack]

Quote (942767 @ June 16 2009,13:10)

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,12:40) Jesus said of Himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 Attn bodhitharta: What was that you said about a “death blow” to trinitarianism? thinker Hi thethinker: This is what Jesus meant by saying he was the Alpha and Omega: Quote Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:   Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death. Love in Christ, Marty

Marty,
What's your point? Jesus' claim to be the First and the Last is a clear reference to Isaiah 44:6 where YHWH claimed to be the First and the Last. YHWH also said that He was Israel's “goel” which means “blood relative.” The Father was NOT Israel's blood relative. That leaves who?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,13:06)

Quote (Nick Hassan @ June 16 2009,12:53) Hi TT, Context is not as reliable in Revelation as it contains sequences from different speakers. Check it out. Rev 1 Nick, It is Christ speaking. Check out verse 17, Quote …I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. It is Christ speaking. The Father was never “dead.” Jesus said “I am the First and the Last.” YHWH said He was the First and the Last (Is. 44:6). Ergo…. thinker

Hi TT,
Indeed Jesus is the first and the last Son of God.

[NickHassan]

Hi TT,
There are none before or after God.
In the end all who remain are one in Him.

[Paladin]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,12:40)

Jesus said of Himself: “I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. Rev 1:8 Attn bodhitharta: What was that you said about a “death blow” to trinitarianism? thinker

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of GOD, AND of the testimony OF JESUS Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from HIM WHICH IS, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
5 AND FROM JESUS Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, AMEN.

[NEW SENTENCE]
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith THE LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY.

Jesus was called Gibbowr El, not Shaddai El. [“Mighty God, NOT ALMIGHTY GOD][Isa 9:6]

When Jesus was raised from the dead, he put off mortality and put on oikeerteerion; the same oikeeteerion which the angels of Gen 6 abandoned to become mortal, so they could cohabit with women.

Resurrected Jesus is called “Elohiym” and “Adown” and El, all of which are originally applied to God, whether as names or titles, but Abraham was called Elohiym during his lifetime, Samuel was called Elohiym AFTER HE DIED, and men are called Elohiym to whom the word of God came.

David called Jesus “Lord” but he, being a prophet, saw the resurrected Christ. It all points to a new type of creation, one who is raised from the dead creatures from the earlier creation. Jesus is the first of a new kind of creature.

In every reference to Alpha, Omega, and “first and last” is it God who speaks, not Jesus.

[KangarooJack]

Nick said:

Quote

Hi TT, Indeed Jesus is the first and the last Son of God.

Nick,
Your comment is the most blatant Scripture twisting I have seen in a while.

thinker

[KangarooJack]

Paladin said:

Quote

[/quote] NEW SENTENCE] 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith THE LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY. Jesus was called Gibbowr El, not Shaddai El. [“Mighty God, NOT ALMIGHTY GOD][Isa 9:6] When Jesus was raised from the dead, he put off mortality and put on oikeerteerion; the same oikeeteerion which the angels of Gen 6 abandoned to become mortal, so they could cohabit with women. Resurrected Jesus is called “Elohiym” and “Adown” and El, all of which are originally applied to God, whether as names or titles, but Abraham was called Elohiym during his lifetime, Samuel was called Elohiym AFTER HE DIED, and men are called Elohiym to whom the word of God came. David called Jesus “Lord” but he, being a prophet, saw the resurrected Christ. It all points to a new type of creation, one who is raised from the dead creatures from the earlier creation. Jesus is the first of a new kind of creature. In every reference to Alpha, Omega, and “first and last” is it God who speaks, not Jesus.

Greetings Paladin,
You destroyed your whole argument by your closing statement which was this,

Quote

In every reference to Alpha, Omega, and “first and last” is it God who speaks, not Jesus.

There are two passages you overlooked,

1. You overlooked verses 17b-18a,

Quote

I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore.

The One who calls Himself the First and the Last says also that He was dead. It is clearly Jesus who is speaking. The Father didn't die. Therefore, verse 8 must also be Jesus speaking. There is no doubt at all that it is Jesus speaking in vss. 17-18. In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said that He was the First and the Last. He called Himself Israel's goel which means blood relative-redeemer. The Father was not Israel's blood relative.

2. You overlooked 22:12,

Quote

And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the last

Note verse 20,

Quote

Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus

The One who is “coming quickly” is the First and the Last and is Jesus according to vs. 20.

your friend,

thinker

[bodhitharta]

Quote (thethinker @ June 17 2009,05:50)

Paladin said: Quote [/quote] NEW SENTENCE] 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith THE LORD, which is, and which was, and which is to come, THE ALMIGHTY. Jesus was called Gibbowr El, not Shaddai El. [“Mighty God, NOT ALMIGHTY GOD][Isa 9:6] When Jesus was raised from the dead, he put off mortality and put on oikeerteerion; the same oikeeteerion which the angels of Gen 6 abandoned to become mortal, so they could cohabit with women. Resurrected Jesus is called “Elohiym” and “Adown” and El, all of which are originally applied to God, whether as names or titles, but Abraham was called Elohiym during his lifetime, Samuel was called Elohiym AFTER HE DIED, and men are called Elohiym to whom the word of God came. David called Jesus “Lord” but he, being a prophet, saw the resurrected Christ. It all points to a new type of creation, one who is raised from the dead creatures from the earlier creation. Jesus is the first of a new kind of creature. In every reference to Alpha, Omega, and “first and last” is it God who speaks, not Jesus. Greetings Paladin, You destroyed your whole argument by your closing statement which was this, Quote In every reference to Alpha, Omega, and “first and last” is it God who speaks, not Jesus. There are two passages you overlooked, 1. You overlooked verses 17b-18a, Quote I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead, and behold I am alive forevermore. The One who calls Himself the First and the Last says also that He was dead. It is clearly Jesus who is speaking. The Father didn't die. Therefore, verse 8 must also be Jesus speaking. There is no doubt at all that it is Jesus speaking in vss. 17-18. In Isaiah 44:6 YHWH said that He was the First and the Last. He called Himself Israel's goel which means blood relative-redeemer. The Father was not Israel's blood relative. 2. You overlooked 22:12, Quote And behold, I am coming quickly, and my reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his works. I am Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the last Note verse 20, Quote Surely I am coming quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus The One who is “coming quickly” is the First and the Last and is Jesus according to vs. 20. your friend, thinker

Your right! The Father didn't die so how do you contend that God died for your sins?

[Lightenup]

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,11:22)

Nick said: Quote Hi TT, Indeed Jesus is the first and the last Son of God. Nick, Your comment is the most blatant Scripture twisting I have seen in a while. thinker

Hi Thinker,
I agree with Nick here, if someone is unique, a one of a kind in other words then they are the first and the last of that kind.
There is only one Most High GOD
and only one Son of the Most High GOD and Him being the son of GOD, would by nature also be God, but by age, would not be the Most High GOD.

An actual son of GOD would share the nature of his father, not his age.
An actual son of man would share the nature of his father, not his age.
So the Son by nature is God but because He is from another, He could not be the Most High GOD.

With that in mind these “First and Last” statements make sense.
Blessings,
Kathi

[KangarooJack]

bodhitharta said:

Quote

Your right! The Father didn't die so how do you contend that God died for your sins?

bd,
I said that the Father did not die. The Hebrew for God is “Elohim” which is plural. We've been over this. Anyway, you did not answer the point I made that Jesus said of Himself “I am the First and the Last.”

What about it?

thinker

[NickHassan]

Quote (thethinker @ June 17 2009,03:22)

Nick said: Quote Hi TT, Indeed Jesus is the first and the last Son of God. Nick, Your comment is the most blatant Scripture twisting I have seen in a while. thinker

Hi TT,
Your use of logic to glue scriptures together to try and show Jesus is his own father goes against good scriptural exegesis.

Let scripture speak.

But approach Revelation with caution as many speak there.

[KangarooJack]

Quote (Lightenup @ June 17 2009,06:27)

Quote (thethinker @ June 16 2009,11:22) Nick said: Quote Hi TT, Indeed Jesus is the first and the last Son of God. Nick, Your comment is the most blatant Scripture twisting I have seen in a while. thinker Hi Thinker, I agree with Nick here, if someone is unique, a one of a kind in other words then they are the first and the last of that kind. There is only one Most High GOD and only one Son of the Most High GOD and Him being the son of GOD, would by nature also be God, but by age, would not be the Most High GOD. An actual son of GOD would share the nature of his father, not his age. An actual son of man would share the nature of his father, not his age. So the Son by nature is God but because He is from another, He could not be the Most High GOD. With that in mind these “First and Last” statements make sense. Blessings, Kathi

Kathi,
All you say is invalid inference and you cannot demonstrate from the context that the expression “the First and the Last” means the “First and the Last Son.” Give me some contextual basis and we will take it from there. Christ is called the “Word of God” in the Revelation. So how do you know it doesn't mean “I am the First and the Last Word?” How do you know He is not saying “I am the First and the last Lamb?”

You know that your view is polytheistic. Polytheism taught the the gods ruled as a hierarchy. According to you there is the “most high” God and then Jesus the lesser “god.” There is little difference between your view and polytheism.

thinker

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