- This topic has 36 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 16 years, 5 months ago by
.
- Posts
Jesus is already in heaven. Aside from Him, are there person who already died who's already in heaven. I mean the Catholics say Mary is in heaven.
And also, there are 24 persons in Revelation who are in heaven.
Hi jh,
The elders of revelation are not necessarily men.
I suspect they may be archangels or sons of God as they are conspicuois by their absence otherwise.
The final destiny of men is earth.
“the meek shall inherit the earth”What about Elijah and Moses?
Matthew 17:1-3
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.What happened to these who were freed from death?
Matthew 27:51-53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.And are the (righteous) dead and the (righteous) living raised at the same time, or does one precede the other?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.Is paradise and heaven the same place?
Not according to the aprocrypha.
Some hold these books don't have any scriptural merit and maybe so. However, these books demonstrate what believers considered true at that junction of history.
Is Gods seat in the heavens, the earth is his foot stool prose again
Judgement, four and twenty elders were worshing some how wearing crowns unjustifed?Rev 4:10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,
Rev 9:7 And the shapes of the locusts [were] like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads [were] as it were crowns like gold, and their faces [were] as the faces of men.Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.Quote (t8 @ Dec. 07 2007,23:31) What about Elijah and Moses? Matthew 17:1-3
1 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves.
2 There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.What happened to these who were freed from death?
Matthew 27:51-53
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.And are the (righteous) dead and the (righteous) living raised at the same time, or does one precede the other?
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
15 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
Hi T8,
Moses and Elijah were seen on earth with Christ.
Christ comes from heaven but the dead rise to meet him from the earth.
I do not know what happened to those who rose when Christ was raised but scripture makes no statement that they went to heaven.
We do not know where the mansions of Christ of Jn 14 are so again we cannot say they are in heaven.
We do know from the end of Revelation that the final home of man is earth.I personally think we should shut this thread down, since it exactly like the “do men ever go to heaven” thread.
But since I don't see that happening, let me say this. While the Bible certainly does hold out that the meek will inherit the earth (Ps 37:11,29; mat 5:5, etc) I believe there is ample evidence for some going to heaven, specifically, the chosen ones who would rule over those on the earth, or in other words, those who make up the kingdom (government) of which Jesus is head.
PHILIPPIANS 3:20-21
“As for us, OUR CITIZENSHIP EXISTS IN THE HEAVENS . . .the Lord Jesus Christ, who WILL REFASHION OUR HUMILIATED BODY to be conformed to HIS GLORIOUS BODY . . . .”The REASON for the new body the new spirit body, is that “flesh and blood cannot inherit” the kingdom.
1 CORINTHIANS 15:40, 42-44, 47-50
“There are heavenly bodies, and earthly bodies; but THE GLORY OF THE HEAVENLY BODIES IS ONE SORT, and that of the earthly bodies is a different sort. . . . .So also is the resurrection of the dead. . . . It is sown a physical body, it is raised up A SPIRITUAL BODY. . . . The first man [Adam] is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man [Jesus Christ] is out of heaven. As the one made of dust is, so those made of dust are also; and as the heavenly one is, so those who are heavenly are also. And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, WE SHALL BEAR ALSO THE IMAGE OF THE HEAVENLY ONE. HOWEVER, THIS I SAY, BROTHERS, THAT FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT GOD’S KINGDOM.”Note that it says “the glory of the heavenly bodies is one sort.” So in Philippians 3, where we are told that Jesus would refashion their bodies to conform to his “glorious body,” what conclusion should be drawn?
1 CORINTHIANS 15:53
“For this which is corruptible must PUT ON INCORRUPTION, and this which is mortal must put on immortality.”God has given such Christians the living hope of “an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance . . . reserved in the heavens.” (1Pe 1:3, 4, 18, 19; compare 1Co 9:25.)
2 PETER 1:4
“Through these things he has freely given us the precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become SHARERS IN DIVINE NATURE, having ESCAPED FROM THE CORRUPTION that is in the world through lust.”Persons whom God calls to heaven will be immortal, incorruptible spirit persons, “sharers in divine nature.” (1 Cor. 15:42-44, 53; 2 Pet. 1:4) Since “flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” these individuals must undergo a change. (1 Cor. 15:50) They must be given a “spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:44) Are not spirit bodies designed to live in the spirit realm, heaven?
JOHN 3:3-6
“Unless anyone is BORN AGAIN, he cannot see the kingdom of God. . . . Unless anyone is born from water and spirit, he cannot ENTER INTO THE KINGDOM OF GOD. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit.””Being born again is essential to enter God’s government. The apostle Peter explains the purpose of the new birth in this way:
1 PETER 1:3,4,23
“According to [God’s] great mercy he gave us a NEW BIRTH to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading INHERITANCE. IT IS RESERVED IN THE HEAVENS FOR YOU. . . .For you have been given a NEW BIRTH, not by corruptible, but by incorruptible [reproductive] seed, through the word of [the] living and enduring God.”Such ones are born again while yet in the flesh, that is, granted the position of spiritual sons of God, born of “incorruptible reproductive seed,” and their inheritance “is reserved in the heavens.” (Compare 1Jo 3:1,9; col 1:5.)
EPHESIANS 1:3-5
“Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES IN UNION WITH CHRIST, just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. For he foreordained us to the ADOPTION through Jesus Christ as sons to himself,”
EPHESIANS 2:6
“and he raised us up together and SEATED US TOGETHER IN THE HEAVENLY PLACES in union with Christ Jesus,”
The apostle Paul in his letter to the Ephesians speaks of Christians then living on earth as though they were already enjoying a heavenly position, being raised up and “seated . . . together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.” (Eph 1:3; 2:6) The context shows that anointed Christians are so viewed by God because of his having ‘assigned them as heirs’ with his Son in the heavenly inheritance. While yet on earth, they have been exalted, or ‘lifted up,’ by such assignment. (Eph 1:11, 18-20; 2:4-7, 22)In the following scripture, Paul goes on to show that those persons adopted to be heavenly sons are referred to as “the things in the heavens.”
EPHESIANS 1:9-11
“he made known to us the sacred secret of his will. It is according to his good pleasure which he purposed in himself for an administration at the full limit of the appointed times, namely, TO GATHER ALL THINGS TOGETHER again in the Christ, THE THINGS IN THE HEAVENS and THE THINGS ON THE EARTH. [Yes,] in him, in union with whom we were also assigned as heirs,”
COLOSSIANS 1:20
“and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth OR the things in the heavens.”
Paul also explains that this reconciliation involves two distinct groups of individuals, namely, “the things in the heavens” and “the things upon the earth.”
The first stage of God’s “administration” is the gathering together again of “the things in the heavens,” preparing the congregation of Kingdom heirs who are to live in the heavens under Jesus Christ as the spiritual Head. (Ro 8:16, 17; Eph 1:11; 1Pe 1:4)ROMANS 8:16-17
“The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. If, then, we are children, we are also HEIRS: heirs indeed of God, but JOINT HEIRS WITH CHRIST, provided we suffer together that we may also be GLORIFIED TOGETHER.”
How will God’s children be “glorified together”?
1 JOHN 3:2
“Beloved ones, now we are children of God, BUT AS YET IT HAS NOT BEEN MADE MANIFEST WHAT WE SHALL BE. We do know that whenever he is made manifest WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM, because WE SHALL SEE HIM JUST AS HE IS.”
(Compare 1 Joh 3:3; Mt 5:8; Rev 22:4; 1 Cor 13:12) Jehovah God, Christ Jesus and the angels all have spirit bodies. What their bodies look like we do not know. But John did know that they, the “children of God” would “be like him,” and that at that time, they “shall see him just as he is.”
Yet, notice these scriptures:
EXODUS 33:20
“You are not able to see my face, because no MAN may see me and yet live.””
1 JOHN 4:12
“At no time has anyone beheld God.”
If no “man” may see God and yet live, then the children of God cannot be men when they become “like him” and “see him just as he is,” can they? As Philippians 3:21 says of the anointed, Christ “will refashion our humiliated body to be conformed to his glorious body.”
When the apostle Paul had only a glimpse of the manifestation of Jesus Christ after Jesus’ resurrection, he fell to the ground and was blinded by the brilliance, a miracle being required to restore his sight. (Ac 9:3-5, 17, 18; 26:13, 14) Likewise, angels are far more powerful than men. (2Pe 2:11) They are glorious, brilliant ones and have appeared as such in physical manifestations. (Mt 28:2-4; Lu 2:9) THESE SPIRIT SONS OF GOD HAVE VISION STRONG ENOUGH TO SEE AND ENDURE THE BRILLIANCE OF THE ALMIGHTY GOD. (Lu
1:19; Mt 18:10.) This is because they have spirit bodies, even as the anointed who “shall see him just as he is” are to be raised with “a spiritual body.” (1 Cor 15:42)
It will be a body conformed to the “glorious body” of Jesus Christ (Php 3:21), who is “the image of the invisible God,” “the reflection of his glory and the exact representation of his very being.” (Col 1:15; Heb 1:3)PHILIPPIANS 3:14
“I am pursuing down toward the goal for THE PRIZE OF THE UPWARD CALL of God by means of Christ Jesus.” (Compare Ro 1:7; 8:30; 2 Tim 1:9; Jude 1:1)
HEBREWS 3:1
“Consequently, holy brothers, PARTAKERS OF THE HEAVENLY CALLING, consider the apostle and high priest whom we confess—Jesus.” (Compare Rom 8:30)
Doesn't this indicate that some will have “the prize of the upward call,” and be partakers of a heavenly calling? The dictionaries I checked indicated that a “calling” is:
1. impulse or desire to follow or do a particular job; a strong urge to follow a particular career or do a particular type of work.
2. a job, profession, occupation or vocation.
The Bible tells us that the “holy ones” would act as priests and judges and rule as kings with Christ. This is their calling. It is a heavenly “upward call.”These “holy ones” do not exercise kingly authority while on earth but must await their being united with Christ in the heavens.
EPHESIANS 1:18-21
“the eyes of your heart having been enlightened, that you may know what is THE HOPE TO WHICH HE CALLED YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an INHERITANCE FOR THE HOLY ONES, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers. IT IS ACCORDING TO THE OPERATION of the mightiness of his strength, with which HE HAS OPERATED IN THE CASE OF THE CHRIST when he raised him up from the dead and seated him AT HIS RIGHT HAND in the HEAVENLY PLACES, far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name named, not only in this system of things, but also in that to come.”The incorruptible spiritual body is referred to as a house. Notice where it is said to be:
2 CORINTHIANS 5:1
“For we know that if our earthly house [human body], this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, A HOUSE NOT MADE WITH HANDS, everlasting IN THE HEAVENS. For in this dwelling house [human body] we do indeed groan, earnestly DESIRING TO PUT ON THE ONE FOR US FROM HEAVEN, so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. In fact, we who are in this tent groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.”
(Compare 2 Pet 1:13,14; 2 Tim 4:6)
Paul used the metaphor of a tent when speaking of the human bodies of spirit-begotten Christians. A collapsible tent is a more fragile and temporary dwelling than a normal house. Though existing on earth in a mortal body of flesh, the Christians who have the spirit as a token of the heavenly life to come look forward to “a building from God,” a heavenly body that is everlasting, incorruptible.2 CORINTHIANS 3:17-18
“Now Jehovah is the Spirit; and where the spirit of Jehovah is, there is freedom. And all of us, while we with unveiled faces reflect like mirrors the glory of Jehovah, are TRANSFORMED INTO THE SAME IMAGE FROM GLORY TO GLORY, exactly as done by Jehovah [the] Spirit.”
1 CORINTHIANS 13:12
“For at present we see in hazy outline by means of a metal mirror, but then it will be face to face. At present I know partially, but then I shall know accurately even as I am accurately known.”ACTS 2:34
“Actually David did not ascend to the heavens, but he himself says, ‘Jehovah said to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand,”
Why the need to say this if no one ever ascends to heaven? Why say the obvious? If no one ever goes to heaven, what is the point of saying this? It would be pointless. If it is obvious that no one goes to heaven, of course David didn't go to heaven. Of course, everyone didn't go. So why specify that David didn't go?JOHN 3:13
“Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man.”
(Until the new covenant was made for a heavenly kingdom, where men would serve as joint heirs with Christ, no one had ascended into heaven.)The Scriptures show that Christ Jesus was the first one to ascend from earth to the heavens of God’s presence. (1Co 15:20; Heb 9:24) By such ascension and his presentation of his ransom sacrifice there, he ‘opened the way’ for those who would follow—the spirit-begotten members of his congregation. (Joh 14:2, 3; Heb 6:19, 20; 10:19, 20) In their resurrection these must bear “the image of the heavenly one,” Christ Jesus, in order to ascend to the heavens of the spirit plane, for “flesh and blood” cannot inherit that heavenly Kingdom.—1Co 15:42-50.
These ones who go to heaven are called a “little flock” for they do not make up all the ones who will be blessed by Jehovah with salvation. They are the minority, the “chosen ones” who have been chosen for a specific purpose to be in heaven–to rule and judge as kings and priests with Christ over the earth.
(God’s Word further identifies this little flock by various names, such as “anointed” ones (2 Cor. 1:21); “body” of Christ (Eph. 1:22, 23); “congregation of God” (Gal. 1:13); “heirs . . . of God” (Rom. 8:17); “holy nation” (1 Pet. 2:9); “holy ones” (1 Cor. 1:2); “holy priesthood” (1 Pet. 2:5); “Israel of God” (Gal. 6:16); “new creation” (2 Cor. 5:17); “royal palace of David” (Acts 15:16); “sons of the kingdom” (Matt. 13:38); “sealed . . . sons of Israel” (Rev. 7:4); and “temple of the holy spirit” (1 Cor. 6:19).LUKE 12:32
“Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK, because Your Father has approved of GIVING YOU THE KINGDOM.”
It is just a little flock, a minority that receive the kingdom, or inherit the kingdom (government.) Much like today, it is just a minority that make up our governments. Yet, we can all benefit from them.But these that make up the little flock are not the only ones spoken of.
JOHN 10:16
““And I have OTHER SHEEP, which are not of this fold; those also I must bring, and they will listen to my voice, and they will become one flock, one shepherd.”Also, in Revelation, we see two groups, one that is said to number 144,000 (a little number) who have been “BOUGHT FROM THE EARTH.” (Rev 14:1,3; 7:4) And then another group is mentioned, a “great crowd, which no man was able to number.” (Rev 7:9)
We have a little group or little flock of ones who will be going to heaven to rule over the earth as kings. We know that Revelation holds out that some will rule as kings. (Rev 20:4,5 for example) But of what possible need is it that all should rule as kings and priests? Kings need ones to rule over. Hence, the “great crowd”, or the “other sheep.”
david
Hi Nick.
Your question is only meant to mislead. Look at the scriptures. What do they say? I too believe the 24 elders of Revelation are symbolic…but symbolic of humans who have been given that special privilege.Quote (david @ Dec. 11 2007,09:06) Hi Nick.
Your question is only meant to mislead. Look at the scriptures. What do they say? I too believe the 24 elders of Revelation are symbolic…but symbolic of humans who have been given that special privilege.
David So only your organization gets special privileges, is that what you are saying? If so you are not any better then the Catholic Church is. Nobody is in Heaven except He that came from Heaven right now.Peace and Love Mrs.
Quote (jhenTux @ Dec. 07 2007,19:38) Jesus is already in heaven. Aside from Him, are there person who already died who's already in heaven. I mean the Catholics say Mary is in heaven. And also, there are 24 persons in Revelation who are in heaven.
Hi Jh:My understanding is that when a person dies, their spirit, which is the life or works that they did in the body goes to God, while their soul is either dead if a person died in their sins or is asleep if a person died in Christ.
No, their is no one who has died physically that is in heaven with Jesus. I would say that Mary is asleep in Christ.
There are two that the bible shows going into heaven without dieing physically, and that is Enoch, and Elijah.
The vision of the twenty four elders is symbolic of those in authority in the church. They are not literally in heaven. Jesus is at the right hand of God, and they are at the right hand of Jesus as his authority in the church on earth.
Quote Revelation 5
5:1
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals.
5:2
And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?
5:3
And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
5:4
And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of * the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
5:6
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
5:7
And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.
5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
5:9
And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
5:10
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.Quote Ephesians 2:4
But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
2:5
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
2:6
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:God Bless
Hi 94,
These 'symbolic' elders seem to able to speak and relate to John.Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?What gives?
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2007,13:09) Hi 94,
These 'symbolic' elders seem to able to speak and relate to John.Revelation 5:5
And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Revelation 7:13
And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?What gives?
Hi Nick:My understanding is that this is a vision of those in authority in the church perhaps at any point in time since Jesus ascension into heaven until the the coming of the Lord for the church. We know that those who are arrayed in white robes came out of great tribulation which is an end time event. The Apostle John has long ago died in Christ, and he would not be around to converse with the elders at this point in time.
And so, it is a vision much the same as the vision of the transormation where Elijah and Moses are seen conversing with Jesus.
God Bless
Quote (Nick Hassan @ Dec. 11 2007,13:55) Hi 94,
Did John converse with a vision?
Did Jesus converse with a vision?
Hi Nick:My understanding is that John was is shown conversing with the elder in the vision as Jesus was conversing with Elijah and Moses. God has forseen every thing from the beginning to end, and so, I would say that Jesus and John were conversing with the actual person.
What is your understanding of this?
God Bless
Hi 94,
Scripture says
Mt 17
” 3And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. “Mk9
” 4And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.”Lk9
“29And as he prayed, the fashion of his countenance was altered, and his raiment was white and glistering.30And, behold, there talked with him two men, which were Moses and Elias:
31Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.”
Moses and Elijah were as real as Jesus was.
They live ever in the Spirit of God.
I suspect they were woken from glorious slumber as the witch of Endor did with Samuel.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.
