DavidL and Bodhitharta discuss trinity

[bodhitharta]

I will start off by saying if you accept this discussion thank you very much:

I would like to begin by asking you, where did you first hear about “God the Son” and where have you ever seen this phrase in any Bible?

[DavidL]

didn’t know you started this…

I turned down your request for debate, because I don’t see that debate is a good way of discovering truth..
but since you insist on dialogue I will attempt to answer your questions in maybe more of a discussion format..

I have no idea where I first heard the phrase “God the Son” – (not an expression I use either..)
Is this phrase found in Scripture..? No.

But does that mean it’s uninspired..?
The more you look at Who Jesus is in Scripture – the more you realize He is God..
(if you gaze upon Him with an open heart your soul is filled with the Light of God)

Christianity is lost today because, like Peter when he stepped out of the boat and began sinking into the sea, we have also taken our eyes off the Son..  to focus instead on the demands of the material world around us..

[bodhitharta]

Thank you so much for taking the time to discuss this very important topic I respect your viewpoint and yes the proper term is discuss/dialogue:

When you say “son” but also use the term “God” and then you say “He is God” would it be clear to say that you are saying that God is a shared title?
or are you saying this is One being

[DavidL]

shared title..?

I think I would probably see the word ‘God’ more in terms of position and sovereignty (ie, The Most High – the High and Lofty One)..the place/source from which all power and authority ascends from.. it is this position that Satan covets for himself – “I will ascend..” (Isaiah 14:14), hence he has become the founder and author of SELF-promotion – but Jesus Christ, through obedience, humbled Himself; emptied Himself, becoming the author of SELF-sacrifice… only two paths – Self-preservation or Self-denial – we either serve Jesus Christ truly or we unwittingly serve Satan completely..”For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it.”(Matt 16:25). Through Satan, Self-seeking entered the universe of Love but through Christ, Love entered our universe of Self – Notice: Satan, by wanting the highest place, is cast down to the lowest place – Hell, while Christ seeking the lowest place of obedience, is exalted to the highest place – the right hand of the Father..

But concerning the Deity of the Son..The fact of the trinity is a paradox – three are one..hence the logical dilemma and confusion…but notice how we encounter plurality in the word ‘God’ right from the first chapter of the Bible – God is One, yet He says ‘Let Us make man in OUR image.’..!?

To call the Son, God, is in my understanding to say that their unity is so complete and perfect that the lines which makes them distinct from one another (their individuality) is blurred..or – their Love is so complete that no hindrance of fellowship exists between their hearts thus they become One. (which is why we, as believers and children of God, are also called to love one another, and live in this same bond of fellowship that the Godhead dwells in…becoming the Body of Christ).

“that they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me.” – John 17:21

Notice how this verse again reveals the Oneness of the Father and Son..

 

so to answer your question – I don’t think it is shared title..

or One Being (in the sense of individuality)..

but One Being in the sense of unity..

hence the name – Tri-unity..

unity of Three.

[bodhitharta]

Thanks David! Okay, so I believe I understand what you are saying are you saying that this unity of love also contains a third being called The Holy Spirit?

In the example you gave above it says the Father and Jesus are one there doesn’t seem to be any scriptures that say the three are one, are you saying it is implied?

There is a verse in which someone is called god you may say it refers to Jesus, if so why is it in that verse the person referred to as god is not one with the being calling him God but instead makes the statement that he was simply exalted over other humans because he was anointed:

Psalm 45:6-7 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)

6
Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever:
the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre.
7
Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness:
therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

Do you acknowledge the sovereign right of God meaning God Almighty or the God that Jesus worships?

[DavidL]

Do you acknowledge the sovereign right of God meaning God Almighty or the God that Jesus worships?

 

when you look into Christ – He is the Deity..

Of course Christ in His humanity acknowledged His father as the one true God..

But with His early mission fulfilled – as the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.. (Rev 13:8)

[“but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ. For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared in these last times for the sake of you.” 1 Peter 1:20]

..He is now exalted back to the place of glory He once had, with God – as God.. (John 1:1)

“”I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” Rev 1:8

[bodhitharta]

In Revelation Jesus is already risen and he is still worshiping God as a servant of God:

Revelation 3:12
He that overcomes, him will I make a pillar in the temple of

my God

, and he shall go no more at all out; and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven, from my God, and my new name.

Then also you have this command

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other God; for Jehovah—Jealous is his name—is a jealous God;

Now Jesus is calling someone God and he worships that being in accordance with the command, so if thou shalt worship no other God and there is Only one true God and Jesus calls him father and says the Father is greater

John 14:28
Ye have heard that I have said unto you, I go away and I am coming to you. If ye loved me ye would rejoice that I go to the Father, for [my] Father is greater than I.

so this becomes a situation where it is clear that you would have to be saying several things 1. There is another God other than the one true God and secondly that other god is a lessor god which means he cannot be a True God because he calls his “Father” The Most High.

Psalm 97:9
For thou, Jehovah, art the Most High above all the earth; thou art exalted exceedingly above all gods.

Are you calling “Jesus” Jehovah? Does Jehovah have a different identity than Jesus?

[DavidL]

Are you calling “Jesus” Jehovah? Does Jehovah have a different identity than Jesus?

 

you face the same problem as all who endeavor to define the indefinable with their human reason..

They are different – they are the same…

They are Two – they are One..

If you truly want to understand you must look with your heart..

When one is born again they receive this as a revelation…

it is understood because it is seen..

not reasoned.

[DavidL]

Concerning the Spirit (or third member of the Tri-unity)

John 14:16,17
“I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever, that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you..

v 23 ..Jesus answered and said to him, “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him.

v 26 ..But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you.”

John 1:33,34
“I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, ‘He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit.’ I myself have seen, and have testified that this is the Son of God.”

Matthew 28:19
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

I John 5:7 KJV
“For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.”

[bodhitharta]

1 John 5:7 is a verse that was added to and is not in most bibles

King James Bible
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Darby Bible Translation
For they that bear witness are three:

http://biblehub.com/1_john/5-7.htm you can see all the different translations and most do not have the additional words and they were not in earlier bibles at all it started appearing much later.

But still aside from that you say that God is a membership, so when asked who God is your answer is that God is Jesus, Jehovah and The Holy Spirit so although there is this United Membership there is no God as in there being only One Member, would that be correct?

I’m just trying to be very clear so that we can progress in our understanding of each others view point, so would you say there is no God wherein there is not 3 members?

[DavidL]

I think the Old Testament presents God (outwardly) in a singular and seemingly individual sense, while the New Testament opens God up (or draws us closer) to reveal His plurality..He is still One, but that Oneness is presented to us in the warmth of ‘Unity’ – not the cold reality of ‘isolation’…
..and the reason for the progression is that the Spirit now enables us to receive this understanding…an understanding that really would have been largely rejected before the advent of the Holy Spirit – because He alone reveals to us the mysteries of God.

1 John 5:7 is a verse that was added to and is not in most bibles

It is becoming more apparent to me that far from the TR text (KJV) being added to – there has been an ongoing attempt to corrupt the Scriptures by introducing modern translations based on manuscripts from Alexandria – that although older, actually come from the region where Gnosticism originated…hence the subtle attack of these modern translations against the Trinity, and deity/pre-existence of Jesus Christ… AND of course, a great argument for Unitarians to bolster their cult teachings with..

Remember: the big lie of the enemy in our day is – ‘Jesus was just a man’…!!!

[bodhitharta]

@DavidL
When asked who God is your answer is that God is Jesus, Jehovah and The Holy Spirit so although there is this United Membership there is no God as in there being only One Member, would that be correct?

I’m just trying to be very clear so that we can progress in our understanding of each others view point, so would you say there is no God wherein there is not 3 members?

Also God was dealing with many Prophets one on one and in a very warm relationship without any plurality, how does plurality represent warmth to you when you claim that God through Jesus was reconciling the world to Himself therefore all plurality would be coldness and not the warmth of one on one intimacy with the believer, I will ask you again.

Would you say there is no God, wherein there is not 3 members?

[DavidL]

All Three members of the Godhead can be seen as God individually..

 

But within the trinity the Father is Head..

Thus He is the God of Christ..

[bodhitharta]

@DavidL

All Three members of the Godhead can be seen as God individually..

But within the trinity the Father is Head..

Thus He is the God of Christ..

So, would it be agreeable then that God whom you call the Father is “God Most High”?

You do agree that while Christ has a God, the Father has no God for He is The Most High, is that correct?

[DavidL]

I don’t know if “God Most High” refers to the Father only – it may do..

But I would agree that the Father has no God..

[bodhitharta]

I don’t know if “God Most High” refers to the Father only – it may do..

But I would agree that the Father has no God..

I appreciate your honest response, we both agree that the Father has no God.
If the Father is The Only Being that has no God, He is definitely the Greater. If we take that “greater to mean Supreme or Ultimate” then we can come to the conclusion that the Father is the ONLY TRUE GOD i.e. a God with no one to answer to or another to worship.

This would no way impact the glory of Jesus or his unity with God in-fact it would be to the glory of God that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven

[Author]

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